Author Topic: Religion Thread  (Read 84764 times)

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Offline LP

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #405 on: January 19, 2013, 10:49:04 pm »
  Vince! If you asked people who is Jesus?I am shore all won't say he is God or Y and sounds something like yahoo.
A wife of noble character who can find?
    She is worth far more than money. Her husband has full confidence in her and lacks nothing of value.

Offline David K

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #406 on: January 19, 2013, 11:23:38 pm »
... I run a Christian Music Site and allows me a fairly comfortable life by doubly my monthly income!  But at least I am giving people something not take take take as many do.
Willy
While on the topic of Christian music, giving and taking...
-------------
Prosecutors have charged the founder of one of Singapore's largest evangelical churches with fraud
for allegedly funneling millions of dollars to his wife's singing career.
 
City Harvest Church founder Kong Hee was charged Wednesday with three counts of conspiracy to commit criminal breach of trust.
Kong faces up to 20 years in prison or a fine for each charge if found guilty.
Kong is free on bail of 500,000 Singapore dollars (NZ$494,000).
Prosecutors charged four other church leaders with breach of trust and falsification of accounts.
The Charities Commissioner said Kong helped syphon at least SG$23 million (NZ$22.7 million ) of church funds
to finance the career  of his wife Ho Yeow Sun.
------------
Onwards Christian soldiers/businessmen
Nice work if you can get it  ;)
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Offline David K

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #407 on: January 19, 2013, 11:32:46 pm »
As I said before and will say again, if a religion helps you, gives you peace, that's ok, just don't tell me false statements, or give me propaganda to get me to join. I enjoy the entertainment from this side of the fence. 
Maybe this is relevant??
---------------
The results from a recent poll published by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life reveal what social scientists have known for a long time:
White Evangelical Christians are the group least likely to support politicians or policies that reflect the actual teachings of Jesus.
It is perhaps one of the strangest, most dumb-founding ironies in contemporary American culture.

Evangelical Christians, who most fiercely proclaim to have a personal relationship with Christ, who most confidently declare their belief that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, who go to church on a regular basis, pray daily, listen to Christian music, and place God and His Only Begotten Son at the center of their lives, are simultaneously the very people most likely to reject his teachings and despise his radical message.

Jesus unambiguously preached mercy and forgiveness. These are supposed to be cardinal virtues of the Christian faith.
And yet Evangelicals are the most supportive of the death penalty, draconian sentencing, punitive punishment over rehabilitation, and the governmental use of torture.

Jesus exhorted humans to be loving, peaceful, and non-violent.
And yet Evangelicals are the group of Americans most supportive of easy-access weaponry, little-to-no regulation of handgun and semi-automatic gun ownership, not to mention the violent military invasion of various countries around the world.

Jesus was very clear that the pursuit of wealth was inimical to the Kingdom of God, that the rich are to be condemned, and that to be a follower of Him means to give one's money to the poor.
And yet Evangelicals are the most supportive of corporate greed and capitalistic excess, and they are the most opposed to institutional help for the nation's poor -- especially poor children. They hate anything that smacks of "socialism," even though that is essentially what their Savior preached. They despise food stamp programs, subsidies for schools, hospitals, job training -- anything that might dare to help out those in need. Even though helping out those in need was exactly what Jesus urged humans to do.

In short, Evangelicals are that segment of America which is the most pro-militaristic, pro-gun, and pro-corporate, while simultaneously claiming to be most ardent lovers of the Prince of Peace.
What's the deal?

This article was co-authored by Dan Cady, an assistant professor of history at California State University, Fresno
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Offline David K

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #408 on: January 20, 2013, 12:22:21 am »
This "explanation" , from Anthony DeMello, a Jesuit priest subsequently "banned" by the Catholic Church
for straying from the "doctrine of the faith"
======
Anthony De Mello, "On Waking Up"

"Spirituality means waking up. Most people, even though they don’t know it, are asleep. They’re born asleep, they live asleep, they marry in their sleep, they breed children in their sleep, they die in their sleep without ever waking up. They never understand the loveliness and the beauty of this thing that we call human existence. You know ~ all mystics ~ Catholic, Christian, non-Christian, no matter what their theology, no matter what their religion ~ are unanimous on one thing: that all is well, all is well. Though everything is a mess, all is well. Strange paradox, to be sure. But, tragically, most people never get to see that all is well because they are asleep. They are having a nightmare.

Last year on Spanish television I heard a story about this gentleman who knocks on his son’s door. "Jaime," he says, "wake up!" Jaime answers, "I don’t want to get up, Papa." The father shouts, "Get up, you have to go to school." Jaime says, "I don’t want to go to school." "Why not?" asks the father. "Three reasons," says Jaime. First, because it’s so dull; second, the kids tease me; and third, I hate school. And the father says, "Well, I am going to give you three reasons why you must go to school. First, because it is your duty; second, because you are forty-five years old, and third, because you are the headmaster." Wake up! Wake up! You’ve grown up. You’re too big to be asleep. Wake up! Stop playing with your toys.

Most people tell you they want to get out of kindergarten, but don’t believe them. Don’t believe them! All they want you to do is to mend their broken toys. "Give me back my wife. Give me back my job. Give me back my money. Give me back my reputation, my success." This is what they want; they want their toys replaced. That’s all. Even the best psychologist will tell you that, that people don’t really want to be cured. What they want is relief; a cure is painful.

Waking up is unpleasant, you know. You are nice and comfortable in bed. It is irritating to be woken up. That’s the reason the wise guru will not attempt to wake people up. I hope I’m going to be wise here and make no attempt whatsoever to wake you up if you are asleep. It is really none of my business, even though I say to you at times, "Wake up!" My business is to do my thing, to dance my dance. If you profit from it fine; if you don’t, too bad! As the Arabs say, "The nature of rain is the same, but it makes thorns grow in the marshes and flowers in the gardens."
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Offline David K

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #409 on: January 20, 2013, 12:29:19 am »
 :)
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Offline Willy The Londoner

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #410 on: January 20, 2013, 01:17:50 am »
I think your thinking of Yahweh Vince.

Lead by the USA Preachers there is a great deal of money to be made from Religion.  I just love the movie Elmer Gantry - (probably more so since it had Jean Simmons starring opposite Burt Lancaster. I fell in love with her at a young age.)  But it just shows what a good speaker with charisma can achieve!  Not many want to go into politics as there is not enough money there for them! ::)

Many Church leaders around the World have followed the American style where billions of hidden Dollars are taken in from people taken in every year by the preachers.  Hidden because in the USA no Religious Organisation has to declare the income.  I have seen African Churches following suit with Pastors thinking they are above the law.

Maybe that is why I like the Chinese Church here. No money is asked by anyone, there is no collection taken before during or after the service.  No one has ever asked for money.  Here we get gifts not give them Christmas, Easter, Mothers Day and Fathers Day and of course Chinese New Year.

I can understand persons concerns both for and against religion. I say a person must believe in something even if it is just themself.

Willy
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Vince G

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #411 on: January 20, 2013, 10:33:40 am »
People want to believe but they are not careful and are afraid to ask a question. They may be accused of blaspheme. Be afraid, be very afraid, this is what they (religions) thrive on. In all what I am trying to bring out is religion is Man made. What it is suppose to do is bring inner peace, make you smile and be happy. To open your eyes to the beauty of life around you. What is done is the opposite. They fool, threaten and have killed others. They pull at your faith stings to get your money, time and work for them to bring in more. Be their herd and follow like sheep... to slaughter. Thanks anyway, I'll take my own path.


As for the name... I didn't want to write it thinking some might freak out?

Offline Rhonald

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #412 on: January 20, 2013, 11:41:05 am »
I am an atheist. I am not against religion. I am not against guns. Either in the wrong hands can and have done great damage. If either is used to exploit and move a political agenda, then yes religion and guns have been used badly.

Although after all is said and done, I know I can be wrong and that there is a divine presence - it's just that I have not precieved it yet.

Going with that last thought; Vince, man did not create god (if there is one); man created his idea of what GOD is to fit into his spiritual perspective. Religion, like scientific thesis, is put into place to answer some question or fill some need, usually to answer WHY. We doin't like not knowing WHY,  and thus we try to answer it.

The one bad thing of being so dogmatic, which many religions need to be, is that to find that being wrong, means the death of that religion and the feeling of being lost for the disciple. Most people do not wish to be adrift unkowing, so even a lie to give direction is better then having no Northern star. I am lost but now am found.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 11:46:06 am by Rhonald »
Life....It's all about finding the Chicks and Balances

Offline David E

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #413 on: January 20, 2013, 10:35:14 pm »
Religion, like scientific thesis, is put into place to answer some question or fill some need, usually to answer WHY.

Not quite true Rhon....In science a Thesis is put together to provide unequivocable proof of a Theory, based on fact, research, analysis and conclusion.

In religion there is not a single shred of evidence beyond the random happenings of statistical chance, that any of it has any basis in fact.

I am also an Aetheist (as I'm sure you know  ;D ;D ;D) and I AM against religion...or rather I am against the concept of a belief system that is based on zero logic, sense or reality and can somehow get away with being the driver of most of the woes that the human race has suffered for at least the last 10,000 years.

I can fully understand the worship of natural elements such as Sun, Moon, Lightning etc as a pagan response to lack of knowlege, because these elements really did influence lives one way or another. But the way that modern religion has morphed into something of a pervasive, ruthless, money grabbing hypocracy gets my blood pressure up every time !!!

I am reminded of a tale that should maybe in the Joke Thread, but I am already in enough trouble over religion that a bit more wont be noticed:

An engaged couple were unfortunately killed in a road accident on the way to their wedding...

On arrival at the pearly gates, they asked St. Peter if it would be possible to get married in Heaven....St P said he though it would be OK and off he went...

Some 3 weeks later he re-appeared and said.."Ok lets get you two married now"......

The Man having had 3 weeks to think things over asked St P. if he could just find a Lawyer because he felt he should have a pre-nup drawn up before his marriage.

St P exploded and shouted...

" If it took me 3 bloody weeks to find a Priest in here...how long do you think it will take to find a Lawyer !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Offline Willy The Londoner

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #414 on: January 20, 2013, 10:54:28 pm »

As for the name... I didn't want to write it thinking some might freak out?
Well it is writing on the title of many songs made by so called dedicated Christians.

Willy
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Offline Willy The Londoner

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #415 on: January 20, 2013, 11:37:55 pm »
Why should anyone be against religion of any creed or colour or denomination.?

Personally I do not believe that there is a place waiting for me after my time here comes to a final end.  But I am glad that there is religion that gives so many peace of mind. 

Ok so you get radicals in every religion but on the whole they are normal people.    If their converts are willing to throw money at them then that is the choice of the converts.  The vast majority are not brain washed into giving.  But what is the difference between supporting a cause that gives one peace of mind against say a charity supporting animals. Giving to either makes one feel good I suppose and that includes the time the UK population  supported a Charity organised by the biggest pedophile predator to have ever graced not just UK TV screen but the UK as a whole past and present.

One thought that is in many Christian mind is that they would rather live a life as is there is a God and then find there is not than to live a life as if there is no God and then find there is one!

But then people throw their money at all sorts of people and organisations that have been promoted by advertising and public relation agencies.

There will always be people ready to earn a living from religion, there always have been and always will be.  Me included! ::)

Should we allow people to be taken in or not depending on their beliefs - of course that is a persons choice.

Willy




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Offline David K

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #416 on: January 21, 2013, 02:06:29 am »
 :)
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Offline David K

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #417 on: January 21, 2013, 02:10:08 am »
"Marvelous Techniques of the Old Cat"

There once was a fine swordsman named Shoken.

His home was plagued by a huge rat who roamed around freely, even during the day. Shoken's house cat was no match for the rat and fled in terror after being severely bitten. Shoken acquired several tough local polecats to combat the rat in a group. They were released in the house, and went for the rat, who crouched in a corner of a room waiting for them to come. The rat lashed out ferociously at one cat after the other and drove them all off. Angered by the abject failure of all the cats, the master decided to dispatch the rat with his sword. Despite his skill as a swordsman, he could not strike the rat- the animal leaped great distances through the air, moved like lightning, and boldly lept right over the top of the swordsman's head.

Shoken gave up in exasperation and decided to seek the aid of the Amazing Old Cat from a nearby village. When the owner brought the Old Cat over to Shoken's house, Shoken was surprised at how ordinary and aged the cat appeared. However, he said, "Let's give it a try", and released the cat into the room where the rat was ensconced. As soon as it saw the cat approach, the rat froze. The cat nonchalantly walked over, seized the rat by the neck, carried it out of the room, and turned it over to Shoken.

That night, the other cats gathered and gave the Old Cat the seat of honor. They said to him, "We are all well known for our skill in rat catching, able to handle even weasels and otters, and our nails are razor sharp. However, there was nothing we could do against that rat. How is it that you were able to overcome that giant rat? Please impart to us the secrets of your art."

The Old Cat laughed and said, "Well, you are all still young and although you have experience in fighting with rats you still have a lot to learn. Before I begin, though, tell me about your training."

A black cat came forward and said, "I was raised in a family that specialized in training cats. I was taught how to leap over a seven foot screen, how to squeeze into tiny holes, and all kinds of acrobatic tricks. I was an expert at feigning sleep and then striking out as soon as a rat came near. Rats could not escape me. I could catch them even as they fled across ceiling beams. I was never defeated until I met that old rat." The Old Cat said, "Your training has centered exclusively on technique. All you think about is catching the rat. The old masters taught patterns and movements to enable us to develop good technique. And even the simplest technique contains profound principles. You focus on external technique too much. This causes you to doubt the traditions of the masters and to devise new tricks. However, if you rely on technique too much, sooner or later you will come to an impasse because physical technique has a limit. Ponder this well."

Next the tiger cat stepped forward and said: "I think that the development of ki(life force) is most important. I have polished my ki for many years, and my spirit is very strong, filling heaven and earth. I could face down my opponents with overwhelming ki and defeat them from the start. I could immediately respond to any stimulus, any movement. I did not need to think; techniques naturally arose. I could freeze a rat running across a beam and make it drop to the floor. That old rat, though, came without a form. and left not a trace. I was stymied."

The Old Cat replied, "The ki power you use is still a function of your own mind, and thus too self-centered. It is based entirely on your own level of self-confidence. As long as you remain conscious of your ki power and use it mentally to suppress an opponent, you will create resistance. And you will be sure to meet an opponent whose ki power is even stronger than yours. You may think that your ki power fills the universe in the same manner as the kozen no ki(universal energy) employed by the Chinese sage Mencius, but it does not. In the case of Mencius, ki is bright and vigorous. His use of ki power is like a great river; your use of ki power is like a flash flood. We all know the proverb 'A biting cat gets bitten by the rat.' When a rat is cornered it forgets life, forgets desires, forgets winning and losing, forgets body and mind. That force is as strong as steel, and cannot be vanquished merely by ki power."

Next, an older grey cat advanced quietly and said, "As you have stated, that type of ki power can be very strong but still retains a form, however slight, that can be used against you. As for me, for many years now I have been polishing my heart. I do not rely on ki power, I never harbor thoughts of fighting with an opponent, and always try to harmonize myself to any attack. When an opponent is strong, I blend and follow his movements. My technique is like that of a curtain capturing and dropping to the floor a stone thrown against it. Until now, even the strongest rat could find no place to attack me. That rat, though, was amazing-ki power and harmonizing power had no effect on it."

The Old Cat answered, "Your harmonizing power is not the harmonizing power of nature. It is a projection of your own mind and thus limited. Any trace of conscious thought destroys your equilibrium, and a sharp opponent will seize on that opening in an instant. Thought obstructs nature and hinders function. Do not think, do not act; follow the movements of nature, and self will disappear. Without a self, there will be no one to oppose you in Heaven and Earth." "It is not my intent to dismiss all of your hard training as worthless. 'The Way has many vessels.' Techniques contain universal principles. Ki power makes the body function and vivifies the cosmos. Harmonizing power enables one to blend naturally with any attacking force, even rocks, without being broken. As soon as there is the slightest conscious thought, however, contrivance and willfulness appear, and that separates you from the natural Way. You see yourself and others as seperate entities, as opponents.

 If you asked me what technique I employ, the answer is mushin (no-mind). Mushin is to act in accordance with nature, nothing else. The Way has no limits, so do not think of this talk of mine as the ultimate secret.

Long ago, there was a cat in my neighborhood who seemed to do nothing but nap all day. That cat looked spiritless, almost like a cat made out of wood. No one ever saw it catch a rat, yet wherever it was and wherever it went, no rat dared to appear. I once visited the cat and asked it to explain the reason. I asked four times for an answer but it remained silent. It was not that the cat did not want to answer but rather that it did not know how to answer. As the old saying goes, 'Those who know, do not speak; those who speak, do not know.' That cat forgot about itself, forgot about objects, and dwelled in a state of purposelessness. That cat actualized the divine martial virtue of 'non-killing'. I am still no match for that cat.

Shoken, who had been eavesdropping on this dreamlike conversation, suddenly could not contain himself and burst into the room. "I have been training in swordsmanship for many years but I have yet to penetrate its essence. Tonight I have learned about many different kinds of training and learned much about my own Way of the Sword. Please teach me your innermost secrets."

The Old Cat replied: "That I cannot do. I am just an animal that catches rats for food. What do I know about human affairs? I have this to say, though. Swordsmanship is not solely a matter of attaining victory over an opponent. At a critical juncture it is the art of illuminating life and death. Samurai need to foster this attitude of mind and discipline themselves in that spirit. Penetrate the principle of life and death, first of all, and maintain that spirit. Then there will be no doubts, no distracting thoughts, no calculation, no deliberation. Your spirit will remain calm and peaceful, unobstructed, freely responding to any contingency.

Conversely, if there is the slightest object in your mind, there will be a self, there will be an enemy, there will be opposition, there will be a loss of freedom. You will enter the darkness of death and lose the spiritual brightness. How can you face an opponent in such a state? Even if you win, it is a shallow victory, and not true swordsmanship. Purposelessness is not a vacant state. It is formless, harboring no objects. If something is harbored there, ki power gathers around it. Ki power is thus stifled and movement becomes stagnant, unbalanced, and uncontrolled. What I call 'purposelessness' harbors nothing, relies on nothing, has no enemy, has no self; it responds to everything naturally and leaves not a trace. The 'I Ching' states, 'Without thought, without doing, naturally settled, the Way activates itself throughout the universe.' Swordsmen who understand this principle are close to the way."

Shoken asked, "What is meant by 'There is no enemy, there is no self'?" The Old Cat replied, "Because there is a self, there is an enemy. If there is no self, there is no enemy. 'Enemy' is that which is in opposition. The type of opposition that appears external in yin and yang, fire and water. Every object with form has its opposite. When mind has no form, there is nothing to oppose it. When there is no opposition, there is nothing to fight against. This is called 'no enemy, no self'. When self and objects are both forgotten, there is a natural state of nonactivity, of no trouble, of oneness. The enemy's form is gone, and you know nothing. This is not the same as being unaware; it means no calculating thought, and immediate natural response. This mind is unobstructed and free, allowing the world to become your domain. Abstractions such as 'this', 'that', 'like', and 'dislike' disappear. 'Pleasure and pain, gain and loss' are similar creations of your mind. All heaven and earth is not to be sought outside of one's own mind. An ancient worthy once said, 'A single speck of dust in the eye can make the three worlds look very narrow; liberate your mind and life without obstruction!' (*) When a speck of dust enters the eye it can barely be kept open, and it is difficult to see anything. When something that is bright by nature is contaminated by a foreign object, it loses its clarity. The same holds true for the mind.

Another ancient said, 'Surrounded by myriad foes, your body may be smashed to pieces, but your mind is yours and can never be vanquished.' Confucius said, 'Even the meanest human being cannot be deprived of his or her will.' When you are deluded, your own mind becomes your enemy. I would like to stop talking here. It is now up to you yourselves. A master can transmit techniques to illuminate the principles behind them, but no more. The truth has to be realized individually. This is self-attainment. It is called 'mind to mind transmission', and 'a separate transmission outside the texts.' While the teaching does not depend on tradition, it utilizes tradition, but still a master cannot impart everything. This is not limited to the study of Zen. From the spiritual training methods of the ancient sages to the masterpieces created by artists, all were based on self-attainment and instantaneous mind-to-mind transmission- a teaching outside the texts. The texts teach what you have within and assist you in obtaining it on your own and as your own.

A master does not really give you anything. It is easy to talk, and easy to listen, but difficult to perceive these things and make them truly your own. This is called kensho (seeing into one's nature) and satori (enlightenment). Satori is to awaken from the dream of illusion. It is the same as keen awareness.

from "Inaka Soshi" (The Country Taoist), written in 1727 by Issai Chozan. translated and published in 'Budo Secrets' by John Stevens

Nothing Real can be threatened; nothing unreal exists

Offline David K

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #418 on: January 21, 2013, 02:15:53 am »
There will always be people ready to earn a living from religion, there always have been and always will be.  Me included! ::)
Willy
Better get your robes and cassock ready Willy
The music industry, at least in the UK, is looking poorly

:-)
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Offline David K

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #419 on: January 21, 2013, 02:25:51 am »
David E: There is cosmic justice :)

A minister dies and is waiting at the Pearly Gates.
Ahead of him is a guy who's dressed in sunglasses, a loud shirt, a leather jacket, and jeans.

Saint Peter addresses this guy and says, "Who are you, so that I may know whether or
not to admit you to the Kingdom of Heaven?"

The guy replies, "I'm Joe Cohen, taxi driver, of Noo Yawk City."

Saint Peter consults his list. He smiles and says to the taxi driver,
"Take this silken robe and golden staff and enter the Kingdom of Heaven."
The taxi driver goes into Heaven with his robe and staff.

Then it's the  minister's turn.
Saint Peter  says, "Who are you, so that I may know whether or
not to admit you to the Kingdom of Heaven?"

The Minister stands erect and booms out,
"I am Joseph Snow, pastor of Saint Mary's  church for the last 43 years."

Saint Peter consults his list and says to the minister,
"Take this cotton robe and wooden staff and enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

"Just a minute," says the minister. "That man was a scruffy taxi driver and he
gets a silken robe and golden staff.
I only get a wooden staff and a cotton robe How can this be?"

"Up here, we work by results," says Saint Peter.
"While you preached, people slept; while he drove, people prayed."
Nothing Real can be threatened; nothing unreal exists