China Romance
General Discussion and Useful Links => Ask An Experienced Member => Topic started by: Proteus on May 27, 2009, 04:37:51 am
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hello
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What kind of post is this?
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Danny it sounds like the person is telling us that they are a translater.for one of the agencies.
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I agree with Vince...we have questions.
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Proteus, nice to have you here.
If you are a genuine translator for one of the agencies then I'm sure there will be a flood of questions for you.
Guys there is no way Proteus is going to say what agency they work for as that likely to be risky to their job.
I'm not sure what you can do to prove your genuineness bar the quality of your posts.
If you are who you say you are then you are welcome here by me at least, with open arms.
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Hi Proteus,
I'm going to get the ball rolling here.
Have you ever read an emf from a chnlove member and thought that's completely the wrong response to write to the letter a lady just wrote him?, like maybe he misunderstood what the lady was saying?
Similarly, have you ever come across a situation where a guy has written an emf and the lady has misunderstood the context correctly of his emf?
I suppose I'm asking how much of what you do is cultural translation as well as literal translation?
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Was Proteus a prank or just got too shy to respond?;)
I agree Maxx...it does look like Customer Care...but since we obviously have their attention, this kind of communication is a good thing.
Hi, sameldrum1. Thank you for your questions, especially the second, which gives me hints of how other agencies work.
1. About the topic of insult. When the lady feels your request is a test of her authenticity, she will naturally feel disappointed, sometimes even insulted. No lady welcomes doubts to haunt in a relationship she is trying to develop. If you give her the impression that you are comparing her dignity with money, her feeling to you will get even worse. The figure of 50% (who will get insulted) is my personal estimation. I have here an example on the men side which might help you to understand the psychology. In a relationship of a lady and gentleman who met through our agency, the lady asked the man (under our guide) to sent her cpoy of his flight tickets ( to check if he is coming to see only her), the man got annoyed, if not irritated.
The example you gave about the lady asking for a copy of the flight tickets doesn't compare, because in both cases the man is paying for the EMF letters, and also paying for the trip to China. I understand that the women do pay a large membership fee to join an agency, but this is a general fee, not a fee to communicate with one specific man. We are concerned about communicating genuinely with a woman, and without the verifications such as pictures with our name or flowers with a photo, or talking on the phone or using webcam, we are at the total mercy of the agency/translator to have integrity and not be scamming us. Unfortunately, if you have ready many of the posts in this forum, there are several men who did not take any precautions before going to China and then found the woman had NEVER written any of the letters to them.
This conversation should not be all from the viewpoint of the woman or the Chinese culture...it should also include the viewpoint from the men, and each agency needs to take that into consideration.
Guys, do you really think that one simple agency translator is taking this much time from his life to answer our questions so thoroughly??? I could be wrong, but it just seems so obvious an attempt by the main organization from Hong Kong to get their viewpoint in here. I really wouldn't mind that at all, except I think it's being done in disguise, and that is the part that is VERY OFFENSIVE to this Western man!
This person is much too eloquent and intelligent to be a simple translator from an agency...most of them are just out of college and the earnings I'm sure are meager.
Let the mask (and spin) continue...just realize what is probably going on...
it just seems so obvious an attempt by the main organization from Hong Kong to get their viewpoint in here.
This person is typing to us from Shenzhen, not Hong Kong. Also, they are as welcome here as anyone. Are far as being far too eloquent or intelligent...I do not know where you are basing this, as my own translator speaks excellent English.
Guys, do you really think that one simple agency translator is taking this much time from his life to answer our questions so thoroughly? Let the mask (and spin) continue...just realize what is probably going on...
Scott, Let me assure you nobody gets past me. I won't be made a fool by no one. I've been on computers since before there were PC's and on the internet from the beginning. I know all the tricks. The translator is real. The translator works for an agency and not from the chnlove office in HK.
Well, ChnLove has a person operating out of the UK so they can set up anywhere. I agree with Scott. We'll take the info for what it's worth. By now, we should all know what to look for and what to avoid when contacting a lady. Stilll too generalized in responses ... corporated type answers.
it just seems so obvious an attempt by the main organization from Hong Kong to get their viewpoint in here.
This person is typing to us from Shenzhen, not Hong Kong. Also, they are as welcome here as anyone. Are far as being far too eloquent or intelligent...I do not know where you are basing this, as my own translator speaks excellent English.
Martin,
As I said, I could be wrong...I'm giving my opinion...I didn't say they weren't welcome...
I'm glad to hear why you are so certain they are coming from Shenzhen, and not some place else...just stating it doesn't make it true.
I am basing the eloquence and intelligence on my experience writing many, many women, from several different agencies, each using different translators...also, I have written responses to Chnlove customer care, and the writing is much more in tune with the main organization than any translator I have used. That's all I have to base it on.
To me, it just doesn't add up that one agency translator has taken this all on by him or herself. Odds are much better that it is from the main organization. That's still my opinion and I'm sticking with it until convinced by the weight of evidence otherwise.
Guys, do you really think that one simple agency translator is taking this much time from his life to answer our questions so thoroughly? Let the mask (and spin) continue...just realize what is probably going on...
Scott, Let me assure you nobody gets past me. I won't be made a fool by no one. I've been on computers since before there were PC's and on the internet from the beginning. I know all the tricks. The translator is real. The translator works for an agency and not from the chnlove office in HK.
Okay, Vince...I believe you think this. Can you give us some reasons/facts why you believe this person is a translator working in an agency? I haven't ready anything yet in this post to explain how this can be verified. I don't mean to sound skeptical, but I know it is coming off that way...please tell us exactly why this person CANNOT be working for Chnlove.
Thanks,
Scott
it just seems so obvious an attempt by the main organization from Hong Kong to get their viewpoint in here.
This person is typing to us from Shenzhen, not Hong Kong. Also, they are as welcome here as anyone. Are far as being far too eloquent or intelligent...I do not know where you are basing this, as my own translator speaks excellent English.
Martin,
As I said, I could be wrong...I'm giving my opinion...I didn't say they weren't welcome...
I'm glad to hear why you are so certain they are coming from Shenzhen, and not some place else...just stating it doesn't make it true.
I am basing the eloquence and intelligence on my experience writing many, many women, from several different agencies, each using different translators...also, I have written responses to Chnlove customer care, and the writing is much more in tune with the main organization than any translator I have used. That's all I have to base it on.
To me, it just doesn't add up that one agency translator has taken this all on by him or herself. Odds are much better that it is from the main organization. That's still my opinion and I'm sticking with it until convinced by the weight of evidence otherwise.
Guys, do you really think that one simple agency translator is taking this much time from his life to answer our questions so thoroughly? Let the mask (and spin) continue...just realize what is probably going on...
Scott, Let me assure you nobody gets past me. I won't be made a fool by no one. I've been on computers since before there were PC's and on the internet from the beginning. I know all the tricks. The translator is real. The translator works for an agency and not from the chnlove office in HK.
Okay, Vince...I believe you think this. Can you give us some reasons/facts why you believe this person is a translator working in an agency? I haven't ready anything yet in this post to explain how this can be verified. I don't mean to sound skeptical, but I know it is coming off that way...please tell us exactly why this person CANNOT be working for Chnlove.
Thanks,
Scott
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Call me sceptic but I have to agree with Scott on this one. There are more to this bloke than we know so far.
All I could say is if He/She wants to unveil their name and location? He/She will. Martin said it already, it's not coming from Hong Kong or Chnlove.
That is very familiar treatment I got from my Fushun "Lady", writing for 5 months and when I arrived I met someone else. The "lady" did not exist. Agency staff pretending (including emails).
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Have you ever read an emf from a chnlove member and thought that's completely the wrong response to write to the letter a lady just wrote him?, like maybe he misunderstood what the lady was saying?
Similarly, have you ever come across a situation where a guy has written an emf and the lady has misunderstood the context correctly of his emf?
Hi Ronan, thank you for asking.
I've come across rare cases where a lady and a gentleman misunderstand each other through emf correspondence. We not only translate letters for them but also communicate with the ladies frequently to answer their questions and give them advice. As long as the emf letters are through our translation, they'll be understood by their real meaning as much as possible. The difference of the service the ladies and you gentlemen enjoy lies in the existence of the agency. You come to this site as individuals but the ladies are orginazed and guided.
If you've experienced misunderstanding (perhaps because of bad translation) in your correspondence with the lady. I have two suggestions. One is to leave words to the translator. If the translator is alert and responsible enough, they will give you a response. The other is to use the "Rating System". It has five ranks, "Excellent" "Good" "Average" "Poor" "Bad". "Excellent" "Good" "Average" are positive rates and "Poor" "Bad" are negtive. When you rate a letter as "Poor" or "Bad", the chnlove staff will contact the agency and remind the agency to review their work and try to find the problem and solution.
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There has been many questions on the subject of communicating outside the EMF's. If the asking in a EMF of alternative communication is swept aside?
Hi Vince, thank you for asking.
If the letter is translated to the lady, all questions will be passed on. Besides, the English version of a gentleman's emf mail can only be sent to the lady in its complete content. They can be totally sent or hidden, but not partly sent. If in reply letter, the request to alternative communication is ignored, two possibilities come to my mind.
1. The lady concentrates more on questions and information exchanging background information of each other. She does not feel or understand your urgent need to switch to another way of communication.
2. Your request is too polite to arouse the lady's attention. "This is my email address XXX if you feel like to write me there." "I leave my email address here XXX in case you need it."
According to my limited experience, it is appropriate to talk about alternative communication as least after 5 pairs of letters. In that five pairs, you can ask the lady some polite quesions inquirying her English level. A request in the first letter usually leaves the lady an impression that the man is not sincere. There are three reasons.
1. A lady knows approximately the amout of money a man pays on each emf email. When you pay for something, you are serious. Besides, since the fee is paid by letters and a letter allows 6000 characters, a man is inclined to make full use of the space, therefore make a letter more meaningful and informative.
2. Because chnlove is expensive, a man should choose carefully whom to communicate with. In free communication, a lady worries how many woman the man is talking with.
3. When you leave email address of phone number in the very first letter, the lady might feel you are an old hand and you are trying to play game with her.
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Thank you for the answers. I myself had a very smooth communication with my lady. There has been many assumptions on what happens on the receiving side. I am sure there will be other questions asked, so i hope you will frequent here to help with the answers. Thank you again.
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1. A lady knows approximately the amout of money a man pays on each emf email. When you pay for something, you are serious. Besides, since the fee is paid by letters and a letter allows 6000 characters, a man is inclined to make full use of the space, therefore make a letter more meaningful and informative.
Many men have complained (me as well) that they write 6000 character letters, and only get 3 or 4 lines returned to them. Is there not anyone suggesting that the ladies write a little more...especially when the man is paying for those 3 or 4 lines?
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Martan good point.I would also like to point out that my wife didn't know that I was paying for the letters.Untill she asked me how much the agency charged me.The translater jumped in and said it was 2.00.I told the translater is was closer to 6.00.
Guys theese answers look like regular Chnlove customer care answers.
Protus why don't you tell me something I don't already know.Like why doesn't Chnlove consolidate all of these different agencies.And make them all follow the same rules? Is there really women who the agency pays to just wirte letters to the men so that the men will waste there money?
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If you've experienced misunderstanding (perhaps because of bad translation) in your correspondence with the lady. I have two suggestions. One is to leave words to the translator. If the translator is alert and responsible enough, they will give you a response. The other is to use the "Rating System". It has five ranks, "Excellent" "Good" "Average" "Poor" "Bad". "Excellent" "Good" "Average" are positive rates and "Poor" "Bad" are negtive. When you rate a letter as "Poor" or "Bad", the chnlove staff will contact the agency and remind the agency to review their work and try to find the problem and solution.
I was lucky...I had a great translator!
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1. A lady knows approximately the amout of money a man pays on each emf email. When you pay for something, you are serious. Besides, since the fee is paid by letters and a letter allows 6000 characters, a man is inclined to make full use of the space, therefore make a letter more meaningful and informative.
Many men have complained (me as well) that they write 6000 character letters, and only get 3 or 4 lines returned to them. Is there not anyone suggesting that the ladies write a little more...especially when the man is paying for those 3 or 4 lines?
Hi Martin, thank you for asking.
As you may know, in some cases translators make suggestions to ladies or even modify their replies for a better effect. And that's all that we can do. If the lady truly shows no interest, a short reply is more honest than a longer one, don't you think so? The pursuit of love and marriage isn't a deal to be counted and judged by quantity. Length of the letter is itself a signal to be read and understood.
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As you may know, in some cases translators make suggestions to ladies or even modify their replies for a better effect. And that's all that we can do. If the lady truly shows no interest, a short reply is more honest than a longer one, don't you think so?
First of all, welcome. Do you work for ChnLove Customer Care Dept. ??? As 'Proteus' is an username, may we have your real name please ??? The core group of members here use our real names.
To your quote above ... 'modify their replies for a better effect', do you mean that translators write their own words on behalf of the ladies' feelings. Isn't that misleading the gentlemen ???
If the lady truly shows no interest, a short reply is more honest than a longer one, don't you think so? .... Sorry but I disagree, I believe that a reply to end the communication is more honest, wouldn't you think so ???
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Martan good point.I would also like to point out that my wife didn't know that I was paying for the letters.Untill she asked me how much the agency charged me.The translater jumped in and said it was 2.00.I told the translater is was closer to 6.00.
Guys theese answers look like regular Chnlove customer care answers.
Protus why don't you tell me something I don't already know.Like why doesn't Chnlove consolidate all of these different agencies.And make them all follow the same rules? Is there really women who the agency pays to just wirte letters to the men so that the men will waste there money?
Hi Maxx, thank you for asking.
The agency does not charge fees from the side of men, they charge from the side of women. Men pay money to chnlove, women to agency.
There are supposedly some rules all agencis should follow but in practice things are different. The deterioration of chnlove service comes from neglect of two basic rules. 1. All letters should be translated into the language of the readers. 2. All letters should be sent to the readers.
In my position, I cannot give you a direct answer as to if there are fake women on the site. But I can tell you that the agencies receive approximately HK$ 11 from chnlove by every credit they "produce". So, be sincere and be alert is my advice.
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Hi Proteus. that's all very well, but you did not answer Master Chongs post?
To write anything in a letter, or as in many posts have shown, a letter without prior knowledge of the person 'supposedly' sending such, then my friend that is fraudulent!!!
Personally guy's 'too me' this is just a customer care person, filling in too let us think it is someone really cares about our plight......
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Proteus in Greek mythology was the son of Poseidon. According to Wiki' he was made the herdsman of Poseidon's seals. He was the great bull seal at the centre of the harem. He can fortell the future but will change shape to avoid doing so. Proteus my friend you have a sense of humour at least!:dodgy:
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Hi Chong and Rob, Thank you for your questions and honest expressions of your feelings.
Little can be said about my identity, but in that little I have already said I am a translator for one agency who works with chnlove. The relationship between chnlove and agency is cooperation. For chnlove, you are their clients and ladies are resources, for us, ladies are our clients and you resources.
If you ask me whether there are fraudulent letters on chnlove, you can expect answers similar to that from a white house spokesperson who has been asked if there are corruptions in the U.S. government. All the help I can offer is some advice to help you identify the authenticity of the letters.
1. First and foremost, ask your heart! When two people are genuinely in love, you feel something special in your heart.
2. Every two weeks, check if the lady has refreshed her profile. There is a rule that the lady can refresh her profile every 14 days.
3. If your feeling to her grows strong enough, send her a gift without telling her beforehand and wait for her response.
There are indeed some other methods that are rumoured as helpful but I do not recommend.
1. Ask the lady to write your name on a paper (or hold a bunch of flowers you send her) and take a picture of that scene. In more than 50% cases this request will be deemed as an insult.
2. Ask for phone number or email address in the beginning pairs of letters. Such requests are appropriate to be raised after 10 pair of letters or at least 5 pairs. If she agrees to talk on phone, web cam request will often be accepted meanwhile.
There is a way that newly comes to my mind and has never been seen used before. And I suggest you to try it and see the effectiveness.
Ask chnlove to fetch from the agency translated versions of your letter and original versions of the lady's letter.
The advantage of this method is that it does not disturb the lady or let her know your doubt, so her feeling to you and your communication won't be affected.
The logic of the method is like this. If an agency writes fakes letter, they'll never do any translation work to save time and labor. Indeed they can do the translation even if they write fake letters but the additional work will dramatically reduce the profit they make without translation hence dampen their motivation to write fake letters. So if chnlove can make it a compulsive regulation to attach the two Chinese versions of all the emf letters, the fear and worry for fake letter, I guess, will drop significantly too.
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The only problem i see with this suggestion, would be those times that the lady dictates her letter over the telephone.
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You know, I would really love to have some of my girl's letters as written by her, in her language. If not for behind the scenes translation and comparison, mostly for keepsakes. It would be a nice gesture but easily manufactured I suppose by bad agencies. I think a suggestion like this would carry a lot more weight coming from a translator than from male members. And I'm sure this has been suggested before in the forums.
Twice I've sent gifts and received photos as proof. The proof is nice to have and helps with doubt but I hope (and never considered) she didn't see it as just a test. If so, she never mentioned anything other than appreciation and acceptance of the gifts.
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Twice I've sent gifts and received photos as proof. The proof is nice to have and helps with doubt but I hope (and never considered) she didn't see it as just a test. If so, she never mentioned anything other than appreciation and acceptance of the gifts.
Don't forget Neil , if you send a Gift and your Lady can not send you something of at least equal value , she might loose " Face " , that is why their slow and sometimes NO respond of your Gift . As you know , do not send Gift's of great value .. this will back-fire on you .
A simple Card written by you will go farther than a Laptop send by you .
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God, this "Face" concept is going to be the death of me. I believe I need to go study more. How would one fix something like that? I mean, once she's lost Face, what can I do to restore it or make up for it? I'm thinking it's not that simple.
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Proteus ... You still didn't answer my two questions ??????????
What's wrong with giving your first name ... We all are open with our names here.
If you read our current forum topics and our FaceBook threads, you're not telling us anything new that we don't already know.
You want to help us, answer our questions specifically .... don't generalize your answers.
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Hi Martin, thank you for the information you provide. Before you pointed it out, on the side of us translators, we were not sure if you can see the 5 ways by which ladies choose to make their reply. May I ask another question here? Sometimes we see an "F" mark on the letters ladies send, what is its meaning? :blush:
Hi Vince, in general cases, a lady has a contract with agencies which give them authorization to refresh her profiles in occasions they think appropriate. Refreshing without ladies notice are possible, especially when she has no stable man writing with. But recently chnlove are making more effort to check if the requests to refresh are from ladies themselves.
Hi Niel, Congratulations for the chatting you had with your lady. :) A good beginning is half done. You don't need to worry too much about "face". Keep sending her your LOVE. When you become the one in her heart, she will accept all that you give and return all of her. I wish you all the best in your August visit!
Hi Chong, I re-read your post and found 12 question marks :cool: So can I ask you to make sure the two questions you want answers? I'm glad to know some of you already know all that I have said here so far. Perhaps in the future there will be questions to dig out something you do not already know, if the question really carries need for help. Thank you for showing interest in my name again, I apologize for not stating clear my refusal to satisfy your curiosity. I hope to make up for my error by this post clearly and finally.
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Neil don't worry what you did was very good no face was lost.Your lady was probably very happy to recieve the gifts it means that you were thinking of her.
What Arnold is telling you it is true.But it is real easy to Avoid.Just don't make the gifts expensive or extravagant.And you should be ok.ANd if she gives you a gift no matter how bad you hate it.You must show your lady face.Tell her how much you like it.
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Hi Martin, thank you for the information you provide. Before you pointed it out, on the side of us translators, we were not sure if you can see the 5 ways by which ladies choose to make their reply. May I ask another question here? Sometimes we see an "F" mark on the letters ladies send, what is its meaning?
From what I can see, it means the letter has been forwarded to the email account.
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Hi Chong, I re-read your post and found 12 question marks :cool: So can I ask you to make sure the two questions you want answers?
Here it's again from an above two quote that you wrote yourself ...
To your quote above ... "'modify their replies for a better effect'", ... do you mean that translators write their own words on behalf of the ladies' feelings. Isn't that misleading the gentlemen ???
To your other quote ..."If the lady truly shows no interest, a short reply is more honest than a longer one, don't you think so?" .... Sorry but I disagree, I believe that a reply to end the communication is more honest, wouldn't you think so Proteus, why lead the man on if the lady TRULY shows NO interest ???
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Hi proteus,
I am intigued. about your knowledge of ancient Greek mythology. the use of Proteus was obviously not an accident, did you study this subject at a Chinese university? I had no choice as it was part of national curriculum back when I was a lad,but in China I would have thought this was quite a specialised subject. I too share your interest.
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Hi Niel, Congratulations for the chatting you had with your lady. :) A good beginning is half done. You don't need to worry too much about "face". Keep sending her your LOVE. When you become the one in her heart, she will accept all that you give and return all of her. I wish you all the best in your August visit!
Thank you Proteus. Very kind and perceptive of you to mention my August visit. I just bought my airline tickets and we are both very excited!
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Hi Everyone, it's old lad Proteus again.
Thank you Martin for your answer. :blush:
Paul, basic knowledge of Greek mythology is not specialised subject in China. It's common knowledge for an average intellectual with universtiy education. We have a loooong history, so we have special interest in history of any country and civilization. :cool:
Thank you Chong for reminding me the questions I missed. I found no easy answers to them. I would like to combine them into one and draw the line. If the lady gives authorization to translators to modify her letters, or if she write inattentive short letters in some occasions where a clear Dear John is better, well, if you gentlemen are mislead or even cheated in such cases, please do not blame the agency. If the modifications or even letters are all produced by translators without ladies awareness, blame them. The line is drawn here. You are promised a genuine translation but not a genuine woman. Stock markets give you chances to fortune but not fortune itself. So is the situation with a dating site.
I realize there is a tune in my words trying to protect ladies, perhaps even beautifying them. This is my job. As I have said before, you are clients for chnlove and resources for us agencies, ladies are clients for us and resources for chnlove. So chnlove protects you and we protect ladies.
The reason why I am here comes from my faith in spirit of fair play. This is not my job but my mission in heart. I have seen agencies cheating men, men cheating women, women cheating men, (heard of agencies cheating women and women cheating agencies). I can see the aim of this forum is to diminish cheating, so I hope to contribute some help, so I come here. After all cheating all minority, pursuit for true love dominates.
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Proteus , I personally thank you for your inside's from an Translator's view . You earned my respect and appreciation to help us as BEST as you can , without Jeopardizing your Job . Something we don't want for anybody .
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I agree Arnold...
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In many respects maybe I was wrong, I gotta agree with arnold
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Hi Everyone, thank you for all your support. My ability is meager. I just hope to provide some special information from my special position. I read the letter Martin drafted and forwarded to chnlove. It's a great thing you did. I truly hope chnlove will get better, not in terms of finance, but of the mission they and we carry.
Hi, sameldrum1. Thank you for your questions, especially the second, which gives me hints of how other agencies work.
1. About the topic of insult. When the lady feels your request is a test of her authenticity, she will naturally feel disappointed, sometimes even insulted. No lady welcomes doubts to haunt in a relationship she is trying to develop. If you give her the impression that you are comparing her dignity with money, her feeling to you will get even worse. The figure of 50% (who will get insulted) is my personal estimation. I have here an example on the men side which might help you to understand the psychology. In a relationship of a lady and gentleman who met through our agency, the lady asked the man (under our guide) to sent her cpoy of his flight tickets ( to check if he is coming to see only her), the man got annoyed, if not irritated.
2. If the cases are few and rare where the translator is on the side of the women, so few and rare are the cases where chnlove is on the side of the men. We obey orders from the side where pays come, right? There is possibility that ladies must pay membership fees before they can get direct contact with man. In that case, justice depends on the content of the contract they sign with the agency. I've seen Vince posted a contract he managed to obtain and if you can get more from your girlfriends and share, you'll learn more about the situation between ladies and agencies. sameldrum1, I feel your true concern lies in the possibility where ladies get blindfolded by agencies. I work for only one agency so I do not know much about how other agencies work. I'm sorry to hear there are ladies who Fear her agency. I can imagine it happens when some ladies have not good education or knowledge of law and international marriage. If an agency cheats a lady, I think she needs help from police and law most.
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Proteus...I am liking that you are here answering some of our questions. I am curious, how did you find our little corner of the internet? What prompted you to seek us out? It is good having someone in Shenzhen that can give us insight into matters.
Please understand, that some of the men are frustrated with things at times...if not for this group, and being able to act in numbers, some of the guys would be all alone, and not getting anywhere. I do appreciate your answers and your time to have come here.
Let me state again, for you, what our purpose as a group is. We are here to support each other in our efforts to find a life partner. We also support Chnlove, because without them, we would not meet the wonderful women that we have met. But while we support chnlove, we will also support any member that is taken advantage of, and try to help right a wrong.
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Proteus,
I wonder if the ladies really know that we pay for EMF's in each direction, as a general rule or if it's assumed they know it? I really do understand that if she knows you are paying for the letters, they have a greater value to her but it would also help influence some of the more frugal ladies to either seek cheaper avenues of communication if they exist or hopefully put greater thought, care and attention into their letters.
A simple answer will suffice, it's not a huge issue to me personally, just something I wonder about.
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Neil , the Lady's do know we pay for the EMF's both way's . My Wife knew and my two Sister's also knew . That's three out of the four I have written to . The other one , I only wrote about two weeks to her , never had the chance to find out . I say it's a Yes for all . They either are told by the Agency or it's in the Contract .
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Hi Proteus,
Thanks again for taking the time to post here.
Here's a couple of questions that occurred to me that maybe you can answer?
1) If I hide my profile on chnlove but add some ladies into my "favourites" do they see this?
Reason I ask is that if I leave my profile on visible i just get a bunch of admirer messages from people that are not suitable for me for various reasons (too tall, too young etc etc) as well as ones from ladies I added to my favourites.
Ideally I'd like to remain "hidden" and just add ladies that interest me genuinely to my favourites and see if any of them seem interested.
2) Secondly, do all agencies get a notification that you have added a lady to your favourites?, even if you you check out a ladies profile and don't add them to your favourites?
Thanks,
Ronan.
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Thank you Chong for reminding me the questions I missed. I found no easy answers to them. I would like to combine them into one and draw the line. If the lady gives authorization to translators to modify her letters, or if she write inattentive short letters in some occasions where a clear Dear John is better, well, if you gentlemen are mislead or even cheated in such cases, please do not blame the agency. If the modifications or even letters are all produced by translators without ladies awareness, blame them. The line is drawn here. You are promised a genuine translation but not a genuine woman. Stock markets give you chances to fortune but not fortune itself. So is the situation with a dating site.
Hi Proteus ... I don't mean to bust your chops. I appreciate that you're here to answer questions ..... but what you're saying above is ...
1) Don't blame the agency but blame the translator ... aren't they both the same ??? A translator works under the direction of the agency manager.
2) So we get fake lady profiles but are guarantee a genuine letter on behalf of them. That's a scam. That's not comforting to know. The fact that you support this notion is not honest. You can't compare the stock market to a marriage service. It's losing money versus losing a man's heart.
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Proteus.. I am a little bit curious about the Red Envelope that you are supposed to give to your brides parents.. Someone told us that you should give a large sum of money, 20 000 - 30 000 yuan, so her parents loose their face.. Is this common for western men to give this amount of money ??
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Peter...Zhifang was very insistent that her family did not want a red envelope with money. So in my case, none was paid. I wanted to, but I figured this was a face thing.
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Proteus, would it not be a bit easier 'if', after say 10 Emf's each way, something like a web cam meet must be set up and incorporated into the ladies contract, and was compulsory? I am sure this would help others that follow us into Chnlove.com. I understand about the ladies shyness, but surely after so many Emf's once they get to know someone the shyness would (if not totally disappear) but abate???
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Hi Everyone, Good Morning! My Morning.
Among all your questions, I feel it urgent to answer Chong's first. Yes, an agency is on the same side with the translator, so if you encounter misdeeds from either part, they are both to blame. By "genuine" I intended to mean "free from hypocrisy or pretense", I should have chosen "honest" or "sincere" as the modefier. Sorry for my indiscretion.
Since we are talking about authenticity of ladies' profiles, I would like to answer Vince's post as well. As far as I know, when a lady tries to submit her profile to chnlove. She need to provides her ID card number with which in necessary occasions her identity can be checked. Then chnlove staff will phone her and ask her certain questions (which questions I do not know). Until she answer the phone call and the questions, her profile will not be posted. There is possibility to have real 18/19 girls post their profiles. A person above 18 is an adult and in terms of law can do anything law allows.
sameldrum1, your experience is typical. I am not very optimistic about the authenticity of the lday's letters. I suggest you complain to chnlove and point out the discrepancy of English level showed in her letters. Maybe you can try the method I suggested before and ask them to fetch the translated versions of your letters? I know some men had their credits backed with less convincing reason than yours. I only wish this frustration won't affect your belief in finding a new wife.
Sorry time to set off, I'll answer the rest later!
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Hi Toon, the instruction for ladies to fill their profile does give guidance for them to tell hobbies and interests, the type of man she is looking for. About her looking, you can ask her to send some daily photos.
Hi Neil, there's no rule demanding agencies to explain to ladies the fees gentlemen pay. But it is to their advantage to explain it. When they try to explain the sincerity and quality of the gentlemen, comparing with those from free charge sites, the fees is a strong evidence.
Hi Ronan, yes a lady can see all profiles of the gentlemen who have added her as favorite. And only when you do add her, she will know. By the way, may I ask a question too. Is it an action to refuse receiving admiring letters and another action to hide your profile? Or are they actually one action? Because sometimes we can find a gentleman's profile by search engine but find he refuse receiving admiring letters. I assume when a gentleman hide his profile, we should not be able to find his profile by search engine.
Hi Peter, the amount of red envelope is something you need to discuss privately with your lady. The amount depends on your finance, the culture of her area and her family's expectation from you. In very rich areas such as Shanghai or Shenzhen, or when she comes from a rich family. A request of 20000-30000 is sometimes possible. In a word, it's mainly an issue of "face". But if a woman truly loves you, such as Vince's girl, your love weighs much more than any amount of money.
Hi Rob, personally I think a platform should give a loose and comfortable atmosphere for both sides. Besides compulsory regulations can only be imposed on agencies but not ladies. After all, they are our clients not our employees.
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Toon , first .. I want to tell you , that this Letter tell's me so much of this Woman , I could fill a whole page .
It might look like not much to you , but being married for 30 year's to the same Woman and understanding chinese Women somewhat , I think there is obsolutely nothing wrong with this Profile .
I also understand your point , of what happened to you , which was sickening and more so seeing it happen to other's here too .
Even what happened to you , stay positive moving on to the next Lady , remember she has nothing to do with the Bad one .
Good Luck Toon , we wish all our member's the SAME happiness .
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I can see that she is a sensitive and romantic person... in a very special way, but I would like to have some idea if she might (and I say "might") fit in with me and my environment.
I have a real (private) forest to offer (off course she is not liturally speaking), but maybe she wants to live in the city close to a Chinese community...
I am sure some would play table-tennis, which I would appreciate. But I would have to ask. I would probably go through a significant number to find one who does.
Well, maybe I am just dumb... :-/
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Hey , that is a Word I don't like to hear anybody calling himself !!!
Nobody is Dumb for asking any questions including dumb one , which this is in no way one of them .
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Proteus, let me explain a few things to you then I expect legitimate replies back and not candy coated corporate nonsense that Chnlove likes to spew when cornered. First off many of us have been flimflammed here and we are getting sick and tired of the doubletalk. First and foremost why is that you guys generically dress up the girls profile knowing about 70% or more is just what we want to hear. Give you an excellent example. My ex that I was writing to claimed to not smoke or drink, and said she frequented the gym regulary. All three of these things were complete outright lies. How do you or the agency justify this type of deception? It is not a cultural difference either, lying is lying and theft will always be theft. No amout of justification or rationalization will make it acceptable practice. We are being sold a bill of goods that is based on lies. I have complained numerous times to Chnlove for being taken advantage of my the agencies and translators and as a result I stopped getting admirer letters altogether because I surmise I was blackballed and this was mearly a retalitory strike against me. In fact I know that Chnlove is aware of these discrepencies because they have been refunding credits to many of us on here. Your 10 policy is crap because if fraudulent behavior is going on why should we have to pay through the nose first only to find out that we are being deceived. I am still getting fake letters as responses to my cupid notes I have been sending lately. In fact I live in China yet the responses are stating I live in Australia or that I'm living so far away from them. I truly would like to know your motives. Yes, you are very clever and imagine quite educated. I must play devil's advocate because I am not buying this altruistic benevolent posture you are taking on here. Love and helping thy fellow man, think not. I think you are a plant working public relations for Chnlove as well as the agencies. There are too many inconsistenies occurring within the agencies as well as Chnlove. Some people want you to be real yet I need some more specific answers to our nitty gritty questions. We do not even know if you are male or female, why should we trust you at all. In any relationship there is give and take and comprimise to reach an equitable cohesive middle ground. We are giving to you yet you come back we generic answers we already know. We are not a bunch of school boys. Most of us on here are degreed professionals from all walks of life. Give up something that we really don't know about therefore giving us reason to trust you. I am to the point of requesting direct contact in the first letter because number one I live in Nashan, Shenzhen therefore I can meet them anytime I want to. The one girl I met outside of emfs the agency called her immediately to try to get 3,000 rmbs out of her for us meeting one another. These agencies are scum and need to start being accountable for this disreputable behavior. If I have direct contact at least I have control over how much they can truly steal from me. The agencies and translators are to blame for this and Chnlove for turning a blind eye to it. But now we have organized just like the women and are fighting back. I am sure the revenues have dropped dramatically since all of the information lately has made all of us aware and what to look for. The days are numbered for these people. Also, the comment about contacting the police or govt. agencies is a joke because first off the curruption, second they could care less about westerners getting fleeced. They probaly find it quite amusing I would imagine. Bring it on Proteus show us what you got. Put on your game face or leave the room.
China Shark Mike
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Hi Martin, I re-readed some posts and found I missed a question you asked, sorry. Before this forum started, I sometimes visited the official forum of chnlove and read in a thread your planning to start a forum of you own. I never posted a a word on their offcial forum because I know their censorship. I found your forum by accident on google. Then I am here.
Hi Toon, thank you for asking. The standard form of a lady's profile is made up of her self-introduction and expectation of men. I understand your complaint but in the name of fair play, I can offer no help. You pay to chnlove and ladies pay to agencies so no side is superior to the other. You've read profile unsatisfactory. On my side, I've sometimes come across profiles of men badly or insulting (with obscene words mostly) written. If there will be a regulation on profile writing, I hope it will protect both sides.
Hi Mike and Ed, thank you for your thoughts. With this thread growing, I already felt the title of my beginning post was a little hasty. If I left you a false impression that all the questions you asked with or without basic respect would be answered with humbleness and patience to your satisfaction, as you expected from a customer care worker, I apologize.
Mike, as to the specific reason why your ex-girlfriend turned out a different woman she claimed in her profile, only she and her agency can give you the answer. But I admit there is a tendency for such things to happen more than individual cases. Fake advertizement is a thread in all trades. Maybe you can try to find out if your qulification as a teacher and background information are completely consistent with that your employers introduce to your students.
You are absolutely right to say "they could care less about westerners getting fleeced". I've no idea of chnlove.But the generally accepted morality for an agency is, ladies first, credits second, men last. The place of first and second might exchange positions, but never the last. I think Vince has already found some answer to the functioning of an agency with his wisdom and logical deduction (in Chong's thread of extreme caution).
An agency is expected to fulfill a certain amount of credits for chnlove and themselves per month, with monetary encouragement ( about 11 HK$ per credit).
Then a translator is expected to fulfill a certain amount credits for agency and him/herself, with more pressure than encouragement, by all means
This is why the same translator can bring a couple to a happy end and at the same time do the opposite.
Mike, you situation is particular. Thank you for showing up. I admit at the beginning I didn't pay enough attention to you guys who are experienced. You are old hands and too clever and alert to be cheated. I care for the men newly joined mostly because they are most innocent and vulnerable to cheats and hurt. I carefully select my words because I fear to pass them a pessimistic impression of chnlove and of chinese women. Now I begin to know you who have already been cheated and have fury in your heart. You want justice and it's absolutely a justified demand. But I have one heartfelt piece of advice, try not to spread your doubt and anger to others, especially the other chinese women you are going to meet in the future, who are innocent. Every relationship is a give and take, doubt is definetely a poison growing more and more fatal in every give and take. I know I still failed to answer some of your questions but I've done all that I can.
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Proteus, you know nothing about me so do not assume to character assissinate me for disagreeing with you. I am not bitter or angry like you seem to think. First off I have a lot of gratitude towards Chnlove for pointing my life in a new positive direction. I love everything about my new life here. Before you sent this response you should have read through my old posts going back to October to get a better idea of my mindset and who I am. I moved to China to embrace the culture and the people. If you perceive me as bitter why am I still here working and enjoying my life. Yes, it is because I truly want to be here. Like before your answers were once again generic politically correct nonsense which failed to actually address the questions posed. You are quite effective with scematics and seem to have charisma to have been accepted so readily by other members. Yes, I am cynical and suspicious and for good reason. I'm getting tired of seeing these guys on here getting taken to the cleaners. You failed to answer one of the most crucial questions I asked. How do you justify or rationalize outright theft or deception. In my case my girl's profile was completely fictious in everyway. If I had known her real personality I would have never pursued it further. I am okay with maybe the first one or two emfs being from the translators but you have agencies sending out complete fabrications of fictious profiles for extended periods at a time. Are you working as a public relations specialist for Chnlove or the agencies? Are you the owner of one of the agencies that has been victimizing the brotherhood as of late. These questions I am posing could be reasons why you chose to come on here when you did. You see I do not believe in coincidences at all. Everything happens for a very specific reason. No accidents in life. Which brings up the timing of your arrival. Right after Martin sent in that petition about the agencies to Chnlove. Coincidence or calculated move???? Your arrival also followed some major negative press about all the bad agencies. If I were a betting man I would say you are working with them. Before you responded to my post you should have went back to October on Chnlove to read my posts from the beginning to try to understand where I am coming from before making judgements on my character. Guys on here know what kind of person I am. For one I say it like I see it whether it be negative or positive. I do not hide or attempt in anyway to mislead people by spouting meaningless rhetoric. I will publicy apologize if you show us some way to trust what you are telling us. Right now as it stands you have not told us anything so far that we didn't already uncover ourselves. Are you a man or a woman. I suspect a man by the prose of your writing and directness. Before you respond back do some research on me and they pose your questions. I read all your postings prior to actually posting on this thread.
China Shark Mike
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Good job with Spruik Proteus.
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You failed to answer one of the most crucial questions I asked. How do you justify or rationalize outright theft or deception.
Mike you asked him a question that unless he was the actual translator deceiving you, he could not rightfully answer. If you ask a person who did you no wrong, he will say he was honest. If you ask a dishonest person if he did you wrong, his answer would be the same. So why base your belief on a persons integrity upon answering a fundamentally flawed question. Please do not take my statement in believing that Proteus is just a translator. My gut instincts say he was encouraged by Chnlove to participate on this form. In either case, he is not the person who can wave a magic wand and make everything better. It is up to us, and also thanks to you for being on the front lines overseas, in taking care of the brotherhood.
Proteus even admitted to this by saying that us men come last. So it is up to us to be on guard. But if we are the suppliers for the agencies, it seems that the long-term effects of dishing us will backfire on them.
Mike, I meet you in person and I think you are a great guy to hang out with. On line you tend to follow the common western tact of being up front and in your face attitude. Even in warfare us westerners have always wished for the dramatic showdown to resolve our issues once and for all. I hope Paul Todd, who seems to have a vast knowledge of the Eastern mentality, can support me here: but the Eastern concept in business and war is to take a more indirect approach. That is why they like to discuss business over meals and take some time to reach a consensus.
Spruik, I have worked in a bank and in a sporting goods store. In both places I was strongly encouraged to sell certain products and services over others. They would sometimes put quotoes on us to meet. Sometimes, as in the sporting good market, there were incentives if certain products were sold. I tried never to let these influence my support of the customer in picking the right product. Does this mean that I should stop banking or purchasing any sports supplies?
It seems that Proteus is being dammed if he does and dammed if he doesn't. When he doesn't answer our questions directly he gets called to the carpet. When he admits to dishonesty in agencies he is held personally responsible.
Proteus, I have to comment on an error in one of your responses. You stated that Chnlove is our protection towards the agencies. The Chnlove website says that it is for serious minded woman looking to marry. If the legal age to marry in China is 20, then Chnlove should not have any women's profiles that are under that age. Since they do have underage profiles - this conflicts directly with their statement.
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Hi Proteus,
I have a question about the lady's at the agency you work for.I understand you can not speak for other agency's but in your experience what is the main method of recruiting these fine lady's. Do you use newspaper add's? I understand that not all of them have computers in their homes so the internet would not be that successful,maybe word of mouth? You seem to have many lady's on your books so you must have a strategy and a good one at that! Thanks for taking the time to answer all these questions.:D
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Here is my question.
I sent an emf to my lady one day. I thought I messed something up in the letter after I sent. Went to retrieve the letter 10 seconds later in my sent box and wow. Delivered????? How does that happen. Makes me think something fishy going on.
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Hi Everyone, old lad Protous back again. Last night is hard, with lightenings and thunders, maybe heaven is crying for this sad day for my country, but I forgot to check the weather of Beijing. :exclamation:
Hi davidaquincy, sorry I don't know how the emf system works on the side of you men. Does it work like hotmail or yahoo? For your case, my suggestion is to draft your letter in Word before sending it.
Hi Paul, internet and mouth to mouth are major ways. International marriage is a trade not very supported by government and public opinion, so few newspapers will help them to put on ads. The speed of computer and internet spreading in China may succeed your speculation. More and more agencies are making more effort to put on ads on internet.
Hi Rhonald, about the age issue. I guess we need to take the difference of legal marital ages of different countries into consideration. I am willing to make another post to describe the methods chnlove take to protect you, if you would like.
Hi sameldrum1, thank you for your thonghts. Unlike you, I feel no commitment to chnlove but I still would like to help improve their service. Your concern is typical and the major one I am trying to take care of here.
Hi Mike, thank you for this better drafted post with clearer stateing of your questions. I am naturally more responsive to questions than complaints. I can't read your heart but I can read logical words. Thank you for your invitation for me to read your other posts and telling me you have read all my posts. Sorry I refuse to accept the assumption that one can make comment of another only after reading all remarks and witnessing all actions of them, time is precious to everyone, I choose to make discreet comment with reading and witnessing part. But if one day I come across your other posts, I will surely read them with more interests. Thank you for your comment and speculation on my identity, I stick to the answer I have given.
I find this highlight sentence "How do you justify or rationalize outright theft or deception." with joy as if I found a diamond in sands. That's what meaningful expression is!
There is no way to justify or ratinalize theft or deception, is my answer. Does it sound helpful? I don't want to quote the impossibility of utopia to perform cynicism. I want to concentrate on two points. How to help those who have been cheated to get justice? How to help those innocent new members avoid being cheated? To the first question, the only way comes into my mind is complaining to chnlove customer care. I want to talk more about the second.
My suggestion is for you to give pressure to chnlove and have them take more effective methods which includes three (coming to my mind so far).
1. Select letters to check if agencies do the translation properly with a certain frequency.
2. Make it compulsory for agencies to inform ladies then they receive a letter.
3. Apart from rating scores, add success stories to the background information of agencies for men to judge their service.
As I have realized and said, doubt is never a good foundation to start a relationship. The aim I am trying to achieve is to make chnlove a more relible and transparant service where members can find their spouse with an innocent and pure presumption instead of playing hide and seek in every letter.
Thank you, see you later! :P
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Proteus, your answers are getting better. With that credibilty and trust will soon follow. I'm not the bad guy just the guy trying to protect the brotherhood's interest. You are showing the newbies the pitfalls and appreciate the effort put forth. In in fact you are working with us I welcome you to our forum. Before I even discovered Chnlove I was played online by a scammer and ended up losing a mere $360 but that wasn't the difficult part. It was learning to trust people once again, especially an overseas dating service. I know of at least one other member who suffered this fate prior to joining Chnlove also. I overcame the trust issues once I fully embraced Chnlove until as of late. We are all generally guys with good hearts just trying to find our place in the world. All we ask is that we are treated fairly and with respect. Hope to hear more and more things from you Proteus. One thing I have to say whatever your reasoning I have respect for you because it takes a lot of guts to be the odd man out. Yes, you will take the brunt of complaints from members that feel slighted whether legitimate or not. Perception is reality to each and every individual. It might appear to be a scam because the chemistry wasn't there or the lady just wasn't the right fit. As a somewhat objective individual maybe you can bring some more clarity to our situation.
China Shark Mike
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Hi Everyone, Good evening, my evening!
About the age issue (females under 20 you found on chnlove), I did some further investigation and here's the outcome.
In Chinese Constitution, a citizen above 18 has the right of voting. In Civil Law, 18 has full capacity for private rights. In Marriage Law, 20 for women and 22 for men are the minimum age for marriage.
Then I tried to register into some famous domestic Chinese marrige and dating sites and found their entrance ages are both 18. I attach the links here (Chinese characters may be unintelligible to you but the figure 18 would be easily spotted I suppos).
http://search.zhenai.com/register/serverrule.jsp
http://www.jiayuan.com/register/clause.php
So I guess signing up to chnlove is a conduct which should comply with Civil Law, and marriage different.
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Sorry Gautam, I didn't find your private message until today. Sorry for my carelessness. I found Mike's message together with yours today. I suggest anyone who has questions ask publicly here. No problem if you still send me a message and I will answer them all here.
Hi Vince, it's an interesting question. Answer to this question might help you better understand my motive. I care for the ladies because we are from the same country, I care for you because we are the same gender. With this fact revealed, I hope to make a requst. Indeed this forum has its particular aim and welcomes particular members, but it's open to the whole world. Chinese men and western women all have rights to as least view our posts. When our remarks involve them, let our brains run faster than our keyboards, ok? :P
Mike, I don't know if I should say thank you or something else. Your words started a war in my heart, my guilt for impotence against my conscience to pursue something right. One choice for me is to stand out and reveal everything I know (actually you already know 90% of what I know, the addition I can add is evidence), as preparation for a lawsuit against chnlove and rotten agencies, which will probably bring the bankruptcy of the agency I work in, unemployment of my colleagues and hatred from my boss and colleagues. Since my evidence cannot affect other agencies, some who are more qualified for punishment would be spared. I am too coward to choose this way.
But still I will thank for your showing up to let me understand different needs from this diverse brotherhood. Some of you find your love on chnlove and feel as least some extent of gratitude to it, some are cheated or even hurt and feel disappointed and even angry, some are new and trying to find how to use the service in a best way. Now I have to sadly admit my limitation. I cannot help all of you who are in need of help to an ideal extent.
There is constantly an instinct in my heart to emerge which lures me to reveal the possibility of cheat from women themselves and other international dating sites, to justify the defects of chnlove. But it will only make the vision of internation marriage and dreams of some members here dimmer. Yet I know dishonesty happens every day to those unlucky. I feel my heart a little twisted.
Sometimes I envy my female colleagues, they share the same montherland and same gender with ladies, therefore care much less for the opposite gender. Meanwhile they have a far looser defination of justice and honesty because they seldom, if not never, get interested in how a man feels.
I know I am a little off the topic. Mike, with regard to your situation, my ability to help is meager. But I still hope to give you some advice, no matter wise or blind, they are at least heartfelt. Since you are already in China, chnlove is the last choice suitable to you. Forgive my honesty, a majority females on it want a husband together with an instant green card. Learn a little Chinese and try to make friends firstly with Chinese boys. The willingness to learn Chinese shows you want to treat your lady equally in the most important aspect, communication. The willingness to make friends with boys shows your are interested in whole Chinese people. I wish you good luck!
So far for today, good night, good morning, good afternoon, good day!
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This was a very good post Proteus. I look forward to future posts from you. Welcome to the brotherhood.
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Hi Everyone, Good evening, my evening!
About the age issue (females under 20 you found on chnlove), I did some further investigation and here's the outcome.
In Chinese Constitution, a citizen above 18 has the right of voting. In Civil Law, 18 has full capacity for private rights. In Marriage Law, 20 for women and 22 for men are the minimum age for marriage.
So I guess signing up to chnlove is a conduct which should comply with Civil Law, and marriage different.
Thank you for your reply and also your honesty in your last posting. I never doubted that the young girls had legal rights as an adult. It is just that if Chnlove so strongly states that the girls are serious for marriage, then any girl on their site should be ready, willing, and able to marry. If a girl was in jail, or already married, or underage for marriage law, then the ready and able part prevents marriage. So as a business owner, I would be dishonest if I was offering up for sale a product that I knew beforehand would not function as intended. Offering a ladies profile for communication while knowing they can not yet marry contradicts Chnloves mandate.
Of course Chnlove might reply that the girls are waiting to come of age while waiting for Prince Charming, but I believe this would be a weak excuse.
As I stated in a prior posting, I know you do not have a magic wand, but then the world would be an easier place if we had recourse to such magic. Instead, I can pass on my thanks to you Proteus for at least contributing to our form with the powers you do possess - Compassion and Knowledge.
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Proteus if you read my signature you will see my question.....Are you?
If you are then welcome to the brotherhood.
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This was a very good post Proteus. I look forward to future posts from you. Welcome to the brotherhood.
Same feelings here Proteus. Of all your previous postings, your last one felt genuine ( not a form response ) and spoke to us in reality for the first time. Welcome to the group.
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Hi Everyone, long time no see. :icon_cool: Hope you are all well.
Not many new questions. So I would like to make a post of the methods chnlove take to protect men as I promised in answer to Rhonald's concerns.
1. chnlove has a verification process to make sure the ladies are real. Every lady will have to submit and sign an application form and answer phone calls before their profiles will be put on site. As far as I know, absence of ID number and signature on application form and failure to answer phone calls will 100% lead to denial of proflile uploading. I'm not sure of other agency, but our agency has an additional requirement to ladies which is for them to provide their divorce certificate or evidence of unmarried status. So there is only divorced or unmarried ladies from our agency on chnlove. But on the side of men's profiles, I see divorce, unmarried, seperated and even Married (yes, married). She will of course have to provide her real name, and on men's profile's name option, I see a lot of interesting things. So to answer Rhonald's post, chnlove gives you women who are legelly ready for marriage. And we translators filter the men and pass those who are ready for marriage to ladies. As for intention, you are never 100% sure of the ladies, neither are they sure of yours before certain communication.
2. chnlove has a strict censorship and punishment system which prohibits women to ask for money or anything of material value in letters. The meaning is obvious. I haven't seen violation in our agency so far.
3. chnlove protects men's privacy. The information they submitted can only be legelly used in an authorized way within office of the agency (this rule is implemented strictly). There is even a regulation that claims a translator has no right to inform ladies if he find a man is writing to more than one ladies the translator knows. I think this regulation has something to do with Martin's post. But this regulation is never seriously obeyed. Also in an argument with a chnlove custome care girl, I clearly expressed my disagreement and her response implies if I tell ladies about the multi-correspondence relationships of their men, nothing serious will happen to me.
4. When a lady choose to end a communication and does not want to reply the last letter she receives, she has to give a reason which translators will send to chnlove staff and then from them to men. When a man decides to leave, he can choose to leave with silence.
These are some special features chnlove has. I did the comparison with other sites such as match.com, eharmony, cherryblossom, plentyoffish and so on, on which we help our ladies find men too. So chnlove is not the only basket for them.
See you later! :blush:
A piece of music, http://www.songtaste.com/play.php?song_id=387182
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I love the song proteus have you anymore really im tuched by the song.
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Hi Victor, you can find more here
http://www.songtaste.com/user/36692/allrec
the three buttons at the end of the page, first is "select all", second is "play", third "add to your music box" (which requires log-in)
Here my heart feels an urge to say something about a newly hot thread, about a lady contacting more than one man. My point is here. Equal play is not fair play.
In the name of equal play, we can acknowledge U.S. and Al Qaeda the same right to use massive destructive weapon freely. In the name of fair play, no.
Let's review the definition of Fair, "free from favoritism or self-interest or bias or deception; or conforming with established standards or rules".
It's dangerous to lapse into this logic. When one side has the right to do something, the other has the same too. As a person of intergrity, we will always remember what we can do, what we cannot, regardless of what other people do.
According to my limited experience, all the successful relationships I witnessed, come from one-to-one communication which starts very early. It is not a good thing for us agency and chnlove to create an atmosphere which encourages or indulge men and women to try multi-correspondence. It is our mission to build their cofidence and give them possitive support to try one-to-one communication, which is the only way to true love in my opinion.
Surely true love takes risk. But the tradeoff is clear. When you pay 100%, you lose that 100% or you get 100% in return. When you pay 50%, you may lose 50% or get 50% in return. Even if someone is shrewd enough to pay 50% and have his or her partner paying 100%, God will ask from you that 50% you get more than your share, sooner or later, I firmly believe.
A translator has their job, also their mission. Sometimes the two contradict each other. My personal opinion, mission higher than job. As I have said before, a translator can at the same time help some people and do opposite to other people. Whether they do more helpful things or more hurting things, depends on their own conscience. (on this topic, I have some confession to make, maybe later)
So far, I showed no ability to change the relentless reality, in which men and women are both vulnerable to cheating from each other without effective protection. To challenge your strength and maturity, I will quote a remark from Vince where he was left "only to find she was just waiting for the first guy to make it there. Like it was a race of who crossed the finish line first." which cannot be more precise to describe the general reality of this trade of international marriage. Sorry it might be a little frustrating and disencouraging but you'll find out sooner or later. Sometimes your happiness depends not on who you are but on how fast you can make it.
My apology also to some special guests sooner or later. I predict if this forum's popularity and influence continues to grow, chnlove staff and even translators from other agencies might visit. I'm sorry if my words may not sound appealing to you but perhaps unpleasant advice is a good medicine.
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Fair words Proteus. I have also come to a similar conclusion that acknowledges your comment about the horse race. I use to believe you find true love, but now, I believe you make true love happen. This changes true love from being a passive lucky response to an active response. So I can see the logic in your statement of international marriage.
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Proteus you are changing my initial opinion of you. I understand how you feel caught between loyalty to one's job and the real mission of this thing of ours. To be honest I am quite dissillusioned at this point with agencies as well as Chnlove overall. With that said I still back Chnlove in thier original mission statement of bringing East to West for a meaningful relationship leading to marraige. I took the easy way because I am an extreme guy with absolutely no patience whatsoever. In the back of my mind I knew it could go either way so I hedged my bets by securing my life here in case things didn't play out the way I prefered. I have no regrets about any of my decisions so far. I've met so many nice male and female Chinese that I can now call my friends. Yes, I agree Proteus about Chnlove being the least likely way to meet my future wife, although I have to agree with you to a certain point about all the girls wanting green cards. The majority would prefer it though I would have to say it isn't necesssarily a requirement. Right now I'm still searching for my soulmate through the free personals as well as introductions through mutual friends. Curious question for you Proteous, what age difference do you feel is most acceptable between a western man and an eastern woman. I am 46 yet could pass for 35 easy. I am very active {bodybuild 5 x a week}, do not drink, smoke and generally act more like a 25 year old. Please factor all of these into the answer. I just met a nice young lady {25 yrs} through a friend and would like to exchange langauge lessons as well as date her. She seems to like me and if nothing else at least we can become friends. Lately, I've been noticing extra special attention being paid to me by females especially when accompanied by a Chinese woman. It is a real ego boost and kind of cool to be the special one. Sorry, about the mistrust in the beginning yet we have been through so much deception on here that we do do not know who to trust sometimes. It is great that we now have an advocate on our behalf helping us and coaching us through the grey areas. The one thing I find about Chinese culture that is so frustrating is that the complete lack of ethics or morals when it comes to any type of business. I was talking to one of my fellow teachers and he came to the conclusion that the school's only real requirement of me was that I be a white person. Forget that I might be a really terrible teacher or some kind of nut, as long as we can hire this teacher to work as cheaply as possible. Yes, I am a idealist who has integrity. I imagined when I came here that everything would be different because the Chinese are so proud and honorable. Bottom line is money is god to the majority of the people in capitalistic societies. I do not agree with this therefore struggle with it on a day to day basis. Money means nothing to me, was always upper middle class so I never needed or wanted anything I could not attain. Happiness in the heart and soul are the truths we should be seeking. Seeking a Chinese woman is the only sensible solution to a sensitive guy. Guys like us are freaks in our own cultures, we need a woman who knows how to be a woman and most importantly act like one. With your help Proteous maybe we can help to make this thing even better.
China Shark Mike
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C S Mike
Ive noticed in many threads that your banging on about hot 25 years olds, no real problem with that, but the simple thing is , do you want children? If you do want children then its up to you and the girl [plus her family] to make it work. If you dont want children then they may not be the ones for you as at some time they mostly will.
You dont seem to interested in material wealth and it seems to work for you, but this may not work so well with prospective father in law, just a thought so please dont shout.
I must say you have a better chance to find a wife there than i do sat here, Shenzhen is full of attractive women of all ages.
Agarn
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Money means nothing to me, was always upper middle class so I never needed or wanted anything I could not attain. Happiness in the heart and soul are the truths we should be seeking. Seeking a Chinese woman is the only sensible solution to a sensitive guy. Guys like us are freaks in our own cultures, we need a woman who knows how to be a woman and most importantly act like one. With your help Proteous maybe we can help to make this thing even better.
China Shark Mike
cut from the same cloth here..
The reason I came to chnlove.. but one kick to the nuts is all im taking.. I wont make that attempt to secure the future there. I wish you all the luck in the world during your persuit.
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Shane i really think you need to take a step back yes you was really unlucky with what happend to you and im sorry for that but take your time stop beating your self up about it lets face it could so easy of happend over there in the US with all the half truths and what not so chill out mate,get back to your norm life with what you was doing befor chnlove and mybe in time you my feel like giveing it a try agen if not move on to what eaver you want to do all the best mate.
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yup yup.. no sweat like i said i'm gone as this issue is resolved by the main office.
i wish you guys all the best
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Hello Everyone :blush:, today's topic is some new methods I noticed that chnlove took in the past half year. You can try to figure out their intentions.
1. Before, there was an indication in every man's profile for translators to see if this man had credits left on his account. Now it is hidden.
2. Before, there was an search option for tanslators to see men's last log-in time. Now we can't.
3. Now when we search for a man's profile or when men and ladies are already sending letters to each us through us, the system will automatically remind us when his birthday approaches.
4. A new function was put into use April this year. Now when a man sends a letter to a lady, agency can inform the lady with a sms message by hit a button on the page of the letter. However, chnlove hasn't make it a compulsory regulation so far, therefore in most cases our translators choose not to do it.
Surely the changes they made are more, above are some concerns you most.
A piece of music, http://www.songtaste.com/play.php?song_id=125829 :icon_cheesygrin:
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Agarn, don't sweat it I'm not going to give you a hard time for giving it to me straight. Guess I developed quite a reputaion on here already, somethings never change in life, lol. Yes, I am specifically looking for a young healthy preferably hot Chinese woman to bear the fruit of my loins. Almost had a child with the ex yet she had other plans, hence she is now on the outside looking to get back in. I'm 46 and want to bring heaven forbid another one of me into this world. The money is not an issue because for one it means nothing to me and two if I want to make a lot of money it is very easy because there is so much teaching work availible here. Not sweating the father in law at all because I'm not bad looking, young looking, successfull, sincere and generally a nice sensitive guy who would take care of his woman till the day I die. Yes, you are so right about beautiful women here in Shenzhen, just riding the bus home from work is a treat because of all the pretty ladies I encounter along the way. Now, I'm still currently unattached yet have met a really sweet girl through a mutual friend and I'm pretty sure I have a great chance with her. But at the very least I will make a good friend from a nice woman. Speaks Japanese, Chinese, English so I really want to get to know this one. She can help me with my Chinese as well as help me refresh my Japanese. Studied for a year in college and actually lived and taught in Japan in 93-94. There is a 21 yr difference yet it doesn't seem to bother her so I will go for it. Friday I plan on taking her out to dinner and then hit Starbucks to see if the chemistry is there. Sorry, I am going off on a tangent yet feel elated that this smoking hot young woman finds me appealing. So sue me already I like beautiful things in life. Face it all of us are attracted initially to the outside then we delve deeper into the more important parts of a woman. The heart and soul and all the things that make them special. Truth be told I'm not sure I really ever want to experience western women again after being pampered and spoiled by real femininity here. I mean that I look back at female friends and family back home and wonder what western guys see in them. The distinction of male and female is so blurred anymore that our cultures almost appear androgenous. Male nor female, just a generic stamp of homo sapiens. Sad yet true that western cultures are deevolving in the name of progress. Life is great here, have plenty of work that I enjoy, more than enough women to ever choose from, a sense of being respected and needed, can complain yet it would not be heartfelt. Like so many of you others on here I am a misfit who finally discovered the key to life, and that is to live and love a woman to the end of our days. Nothing complicated yet the journey is quite daunting to say the least. I think east and west make the most stable loving relationships and that is coming from a guy who has had a couple bad ones so far yet will not let go because the stakes are too high. Well, I guess that is rant enough for today, just killing time before my two hour lunchbreak.
China Shark Mike
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Yep, clears things up, but why use one word when ten will do, haha
Well im 52 and not looking to have babies, that time has passed, but seeking a lady that does not want children isnt easy, just stopped writing to a lady who wants a baby and she will be 42 next month, so you have a massive choice, good luck
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Great post Proteus. It is really good to hear an inside view of how things are working at the other end of things.
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Agarn
In my first letter to the Ladies I wrote I stated that I doesn't want to have any babies. From 2 of those women I got the reply that they also didn't want any babies. The Lady I am going to get married to doesn't want any more children and the other women that also doesn't want any children was only 38 and had no children so I think that is a hope for you too.
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Peter, yes theres always hope.
My profile clearly states no babies in the future etc but it took 12 credits used for this lady to say she wanted a baby, 7 credits for another lady to to say, shame, nice ladies.
Its not just about the money used its about the time lost, time that should be used talking to someone on the same page.
Still the rods baited and Im fishing again.
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Hi Everyone. Something interesting to share today. :blush: I found on a Chinese forum a post about chnlove.
http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=336453322
The title asks information about chnlove. The girl who starts this thread said she had three unsuccessful relationships before and want to try her luck abroad. She has heard of the reputation of chnlove and asks for contacts from authorized agencies. I would like to request your attention to 15 and 36 posts. The speakers seem to be professionals in this trade and they gave honest advice and insights to females who are interested in joining . I try to put them into English here.
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Post 15 from ????
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International marriage itself is an additional platform for you, neither superor nor inferior to domestic. But their practice requires discussion. Now most international marriage companies have a service patten like this. You pay money, they take care of all the process for you, in one or two years. When your service period expires, no matter you are married or not, the service ends.
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????40%
Basically your translator takes care of the whole process for you. And major income for translators comes from a fee you pay after you meet foreign men. Therefore a problem emerges. Translators will provide you a very limited number of men to select and urge you not to pay too much time in choosing, in order to reduce her cost of time and begin service for next women. Usually she will tell you to be satisfied to have two men communicating with you and try to grasp the chance in case neither comes. she will also say if you pay too much time on choosing, you will waste your time and money. Actually in such company, the success rate can by no means succeed 40%
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
But vital problems is this. When you start a relationship with a foreign man, who truly is "in love" with him, is your translator. It's hard for you to develop a genuine feeling with them in communication. Only when you and your foreign BF finally live abroad together, rips will emerge. At that time, you are totally helpless and hopeless. It is wise to find some sites where you can build a real communication with foreign men, or at least learn some English and wisdom of life. Your fate is in your hand but no in some irresponsible translation companies. Weigh yourself! : )
Post 36 from feifei20009
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
I have worked in this trade for some time and am familiar with many sites of this trade, including chnlove, so I want to say something.
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????35??50??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
I was in this trade for 2 years so I dare to call myself a professional and I have some opinions to share. Many people hold bias to this trade. They think Chinese women want to marry abroad for a wealthy life or something else. In my opinion, people with such thoughs do not know this trade well. The ladies I met before are mostly from 35 to 50, some with children. In such a reserved and traditional country as China, it is very hard for them to find a suitable man and build a happy family so they look abroad. And for them, children is an important reason to seek a new life abroad too. After all, western countries have a better social benefit system. If we can think about it from the standpoint of ladies, we will understand them. International is nothing special, only one more way, one more platform.
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
There are a lot of companies involved in this trade in Shenzhen. I know many. Some are responsible and some not. Many companies pursue profits more than ladies welfare. They do not do their work as promised after ladies pay the fee so success rate is low, therefore incur bias and misunderstanding to this trade. But there are indeed some successful companies who are more responsible to their clients and have a high success rate. But on an overall level, this trade is in chaos in Shenzhen.
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Chnlove is a platform in this trade. Apart from it, there are many other mature sites too. Chnlove's sucess comes from its profit-making system. This site is not open to women. Ladies can only access to their service from agency office. No fees are required from ladies when they post profiles and send letters to men, but men pay it. And profits come from them.
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
But chnlove has a big shortcoming. Since chnlove and agency can make profits from foreign men's credits, sometimes they care less about Chinese women's welfare. When a lady confirms a relationship with a man, she will hide or delete her profile from the site, and will reduce the resources for making credits. Therefore many companies try to delay ladies from meeting foreign men or hiding profile. And this makes ladies complain. So you must be careful when you choose a company!
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Proteous excellent post. I know firsthand how treacherous some of the Shenzhen agencies can be. I was actually recently approached by a Chinese woman asking me if I knew of some foreign man willing to marry a 30 yr old Chinese woman strictly for the green card. I do believe this is extremely rare yet was shocked and would in no way be a part of this type of thing. It all boils down to that leap of faith
initially. Ultimately the only real test is meeting face to face to ascertain whether any chemistry does exist and if there is a good chance. There is good and bad things in life so one must tread carefully to make thier dream come true. Saying that I've read many guy's exploits after it the chemistry wasn't there that are still not giving up hope because they believe in this thing of our's. I am a perfect example of how things didn't pan out yet I will never give up trying to find my other half here.
China Shark Mike
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Thank you, Vince and Mike. :icon_biggrin:
A fruitful day today, something more interesting was published by chnlove on their official site for us agencies to read and learn (no open to you). With my estimation, it carries no commercial secret so I would like to share with you. The whole title is about "Feedback from male members who have visited this company". The artical is made up of mainly three questions.
1. what is "Feedback from ...." ?
2. What are current average scores of "F..."?
3. How to improve "F..."?
I'll skip 1 and go directly to 2 and 3.
2 is an image in original form so I will quote their fitures.
male members feel good after meeting females in agency 60%
male members feel good after meeting females privately 30.5%
male members feel bad after meeting females privately 7%
male members feel bad after meeting females in agency 2.5%
Most interesting is answer to question 3 How to improve "F..."?
Here are advice chnlove gives (in Chinese big 5).
1) ???????????????????????
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????????????
1.) How to deal with M’s disappointment during visiting?
Generally, Ms hold a high expectation for their visit and meeting F. Any details of agency service, including attitude and quality of translation and the whole process of meeting F, may affect M’s impression to agency and even to F.
Therefore, it is necessary to make full preparation before M’s visit. It is advised to arrange the reception according to rituals dna traditionals of the country where M come from, to leave M a relaxing and warm feeling from the very beginning. Meanwhile agency can help M in some daily issues. If so, even M feel bad to F, they will not feel bad for agency. After meeting, translators can humbly ask M to rate their service and give advice. It’s a chance to establish direct communicationg with M.
2) ?????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
2) How to deal with the difference between F’s real appearance and that in photos?
It is common for everyone to pursue beauty. Most F on chnlove use professional photos. Before meeting, agency staff can guide F to take some professional photos in outdoors. When M accept them, send real life photos. The key is to change gradually from professional photos to more real photos and finally to real life photos. Meanwhile make more effort help M and F to build chemistry in letters, therefore M will change from concentrating F’s outer beauty to inner beauty. Even if there is difference in appearance when they meet, M will gladly accept the truth because he has already accept the truth. So unsatisfactory feedbacks will be less. Meanwhile, do remember to remind F to dress up before meeting. If condition permits, lead F to buy clothes and design hairstyle. Remind them to take care of details such as chewing gum too, in order that F can leave a good first impression to M and avoid making M feel shocked by the difference between real F and photos.
3) ?????????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
3) How to deal with F’s ignorance of M’s condition (doubt to authenticity of letters)?
Generally before M’s visit, they will have many letters written with F. Authenticity of letters is always a principle we emphasize. We suggest agency to arrange translators re-read letters with F before meeting take place and help F to take notes about M’s experience, family, work, life, hobbies, and topics that appeared in letters. Knowledge of M will be helpful to their communication in China.
4) ????????????????????????
??? ?????????????????????
a. ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
b. ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
c. ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??? ????????????????????????
a. ????????????????????????????????
b. ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
c. ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
4) What makes M feel bad to fees charges during meeting? What make them misunderstand?
? During visiting, M feel bad toward fees charged for translation, how should agency deal with it?
a. Agency can suggest to arrange booking tickets and hotels for M and inform them the fees agency charge beforehand and let M decide when they can choose. It is recommended for agency to prepare a contract about items, time and fees of service to both sides to confirm and avoid dispution.
b. Before meeting, F can give translator’s phone numbers to M. Or T can give them directly in notes to M in case they need help during meeting.
c. when M get phone number or email of agency, they will usually call T directly. T can tell M the fees in direct communication and try to persuade M to accept. If M accept, T can offer the service. If M do not accept and when F’s English is fair, T can help them to arrange a place to meet by themselves and leave phone number for emergent need. If F’s English is too poor, suggest F and M hire a T by themselves.
? when M don’t understand why agency charges success fee, what should agency do?
a. If M have doubts to success fee or do not understand it, agency needs to explain to them what success fee is.
b. before M and F decide to marry. It is Not recommended for agency to charge success fee from F, or agency and F to charge success fee from M, or F demand success fee from M, otherwise misunderstanding will easily be incurred.
c. if F and M decide to marry. It is F who carry the responsibility to pay the success fee. There is nothing against M’s volunteer willingness to help F but it is not recommended for agency to charge success fee from M or help F to get from M.
5) ????????????????????????????
? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
5) When M and F encounter obstacles during meeting, what should agency do?
? after research of the situation where F meet M privately, we suggest T to communicate with F beforehand and inform them the risks and uncertainty during meeting, and cultural differences and other details F should notice during meeting. To show the feature of agency service, agency can give M phone number of the T who take care of correspondence between them, so that when they need, help can be offered immediately. It will be helpful to build M’s trust and confidence to agency.
? From analysis beforehand, we do not recommend F to meet M privately. It would be better to invite M to agency first and have agency staff arrange the meeting and make sure there is a T during the whole meeting to give M a direct impression of agency’s “hardware” and “software” and enforce M’s trust to agency and to F. And T can help to solve problems during their meeting.
? If M have complaints to agency’s service during meeting, agency can try their best to satisfy M’s demands to make their meeting go smoothly.
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Try to read between lines. Interesting, isn’t it? Still work waiting for me, see you later!
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Thank you Proteus, this will help alot of newbies and some of the old hands here understand what is going on and what to expect when they arrive in China to meet thier ladies. :icon_cheesygrin:
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Wow, Proteus, thats a really interesting post, thank you.
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Proteus
Interesting post, please keep them up, looking forward to the next.
thanks
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You new guys have no idea how good you have it now. Second week in country my girl and I almost split up over this success meeting garbage fee. I was asked by my girl and her agency to fork over 50,000 rmbs prior to us getting married. I had no idea of what was going on and was livid, my girl stopped contacting the agency altogether after that. The agency and translators were in cahoots to keep me far away from the agency after I repeatedly asked my girl for the address and phone number because we were going to pay them a visit. A lot of the stuff from Proteous'es last post sounds like to they are starting to acknowledge our legitimate gripes after all. I suspect that this forum has made it much harder for the underhanded agencies as well as the crooked translators to grift us like they once were. If I had to do it over again with this kind of knowledge I'de be quite richer and much wiser. Our solidarity and sharing of the info is strengthing the brotherhood. Thanx to all that are making this thing of our's great.
China Shark Mike
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CSMike, the more members and information about the angencies we have the stronger we become, for example, I belong to another group and together we have made a small change in the way things are done at the Visa interview in Goungzhou, nothing big but for us it meant alot, lets just say in no longer takes 18 months to find out why a blue or white slip, anyway, now you see that with info and large membership anything is possible.
Thanks again Proteus.
:icon_cheesygrin:
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Hi Everyone, here I would like to share my thoughts from the chnlove announcement.
Before the topic starts I have some comments on David's revoked membership. I am not sure how many of you who are already married through cl still have your profiles and your chinese wives' left on it. In our agency, when a lady gets married or starts applying a fiance visa, her profile will be canceled from cl. This cancellation is surely justified. cl is a site for people seek marriage therefore not suitable for married people to remain there. If we take the case to extreme, remained profile could possiblity be the root of extramarital affairs. Since a male has freer rights than female, which means when a female hides her profile she cannot send admirer letters to contact males but when a male hides his profile he will not receive admirer letters but can still send any letters to any females if he would like. So cancellation of profile will be a gesture of commitment. In our agency, after marriage we will check if the lady's husband has cancelled his profile and give information and advice to lady. She will choose whether to ask her husband to cancel it depending on their mutual-trust. About your letters, a translator is only accessible to letters in the latest three months. But an agency manager have the right to get any letters the agency has processed.
Now back to our major topic. I though hard yesterday and last night to summarize my thoughs into some keywords. Now I have three "tricky" "submissive" and "business".
Surely we have nothing against winning a person's heart with a true heart and some additional techniques. But if the true heart is substutited by techniques to a large extent or totally, love becomes a business. To help the lady dress up a little, well, acceptable. To help her review letters and make notes of the letters, preparation for an exam? To arrange them meet in an agency with company and help of translators and maybe a lot audience, wait a minute, is it a date or an interview?
From the implication I sensed in the anouncement, cl wants to have agencies as well as ladies at their mercy to please male members. Agencies could be submissive to them because of cl's larger market power, but not the ladies. Forgive my boldness and honesty, there are already a lot cl regulations showing favoritism to male members. Now we have this Feedback system. But what if a lady is done wrong to?
All the advice cl gives to agencies requires labor to carry out, how can the labor be paid? Success fee! Now I'll defend success fee a little. What makes an agency's major revenue? Service fee from ladies (here I exclude the possibility of some rotten agencies who make money only by posting fakes ladies and winning credits). Some agencies charge a large amount of fee wholy before ladies joinning and provide a period of service such as one or two years. Some agencies divide the fees into some parts which are paid before joining, after meeting and after marriage. Surely fees are to be paid. What will be ladies' favorite choice? Try to weigh from their standpoint, surely paying after marriage. First, their service has a visible result, second they will possibily have some help from husband. So in most cases, a lady's success fee is made up of parts paid before joining and after marriage. An agency accept payment of success fee after marriage is indeed a very responsible agency. A lot of agencies, in fear of the uncertainty of this business, manage to persuade ladies pay success fee immediately after meeting. It's a little tricky. From the mechanism of servie fee, I think now you understand a lady does not pay according to the amount of translation work agency does for her. She never cares how many letters are translated. She cares only a result!
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Proteus I understand what you are saying.But the agency fees are not consistant.Neither are the contracts.For example.One of our members here payed 300.00 Canadian dollers for the success fee.The Agency is a good agency in Guanzghou.The translater went above and beyond.To help the member and his wife have success.
The agency in Zhuhai my wife was registerd with wanted the equivelant of 2,000.00 American dollers for the success fee.The translater wanted 300 RMB a day to translate.Even if he only came to lunch.And halfe the time his english was so bad I couldn't understand him.So I told him he did not need to translate for us.
When I send the paperwork for my wife to apply for the visa.The agency boss told me that they would help my wife fill out the paperwork.They had the paperwork a weak and didn't help her.They finnally give my wife the paperwork.And I help her fill it out over the computer.
I payed the agency the meeting fee.But I would not pay the Success fee.Because it was to much money.The translater was bad.The letters he was sending me that were supposed to be be from my wife.Were his own words.And the letters read like a low budget porno Magazine.When I seen the translater again I asked him about the letters.He ran off down the street calling me bad names in Chinese
Now I realize that you are a translater and you do not make policy for the different agencies.But I think Chnlove needs to step in and regulate theese different agencies.Theese bad agencies are destroying the buissness that Chnlove is trying to build up.If you doubt my words look at pfishy they say some really bad things there about the agencies and Chnlove.Vince has the correct web address.If you want to take a look.
I have another question for you.I heard that it is against Chinese law for the different agencies to introduce a foriegn man to a Chinese women.Unless the Agencies have a liscence from the Chinese goverment that says they can introduce foreign men to a Chinese women.What I want to know is this true or false? If it is true how many of the Agencies do you think really have the Liscence?
Proteus keep up the good work I enjoy these posts.
Maxx
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Bravo Maxx that is what I like to hear. Hard questions getting asked. To be honest I do not agree with the meeting fee for the simple fact if I forked over the 50,000 rmbs I'de be out $7,000 and not anything to show for it. 90% of what was translated was not her words or feeling and in no way was any part of her profile accurate. We split up because of differences yet not cultural differences. I have no hard feelings towards the agency yet if they played square with me I'de probably be married and enjoying my newfound family. Yes, the favoritism is leaning towards the men yet we are the ones really taking the monetary hit for the most part. I feel for the women yet they do not travel half across the world or really jump through the hoops the guys go through. If the agencies would start getting ousted from Chnlove because of improper business practices you'de be amazed how fast they would start to straighten up. Some money is better than no money. This forum is making an impact that is why Proteous is here and quite a few others. Whatever the reasons I am okay as long as our issues are addressed in a serious fashion and not like the redundant form letters Chnlove is so famous for sending in reply to complaints. With that being said I think Proteous is making an excellent contribution to our humble forum.
China Shark Mike
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This is good information that men need to understand. These ladies are the ones who are in the least advantageous position. They're truely at the mercy of the agency.
In my wifes case, she paid 10,000 rmb to sign and was hit up for the 50,000 success fee even before I arrived. Now take into consideration that our plan was to go from the airport to the registry on the very day I arrived so I'm not really sure how I feel about her being hit up for this fee even before it had happend. It all did happen as planned so I can't complain too much but she had to hustle fast to get the money and thankfully her mother came through for her and paid the success fee.
Recently I sent the information form from my lawyer to her and she told me our translator wanted 5000 rmb to fill it out. That's freakin rediculous and I told my wife it was unreasonable and to use her 17yr old neice who has very good english skills. It only goes to show how these wonderful ladies are the ones who are truely at the mercy of the agencies.
Thanks for the great posts Proteus. You add much value to this forum.
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Hi Maxx, you hit a vital question. As far as I know, agencies that work with chnlove have the required Liscence to introduce foreign men and chinese women for the purpose of marriage. This can be added to one of the advantages of chnlove serivce. As for other agencies, there is nothing wrong if they provide exclusively translation, but in actual cases, 99% exceeds their authorizations. Government connives their existence as long as they don't make trouble. So it's a game of hide and seek. When they get along well with their clients, chinese women, they have not much to fear. But if annoyed ladies unite, they are powerful. So far I've witnessed two big international marriage companies (one in Guangzhou, one in Shenzhen) shut down by government because of ladies accusations. Neither worked with chnlove.
Surely success fees vary according to different service and in difference agencies. chnlove has no power to set a unique standard for that. As I have stated in the end of my last post. Ladies does not care about or pay according to the quality or quantity of translation service they are offered but the RESULT. The connontation of this word will be enough to start another interesting and challenging post.
It's surely wise to refuse paying for bad quality service and avoid falling into such traps beforehand. And if there are disputes about success fee, you can resort to legal help. I understand sometimes success fee turns out to be a little tough for some females. And sometimes it's a price for them to pay for a supposedly free lunch.
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Proteous, when and should the success fee be paid. This to me seems like a moral question as well as an ethical one. In Ed's case I find it appalling that they asked even before he arrived. In my case the agency waited about a week before springing it on me. If the union doesn't work out I would think there should be at the very least a 50% - 75% refund of all monies paid. What exactly are the policies reguarding couples that do not work out. Curious to know how the agencies react to this situation. I would imagine though that they be extremely reluctant to give back any fees reguardless of the moral implications involved. Just my thoughts on the issue. If I go through Chnlove to find my soulmate I'll be dammed if I am paying any type of fee like this. I'de be happy to give the family tribute money yet will not give the agency a dime for this nonsense. It is the principal not necessarily the actual money.
China Shark
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Thank you Mike for your thought-provoking comments. Your support is my energy to carry on. I feel our discussion has been brought to a tough stage. The topic of success fee is never an appealing thing because it casts a monetary hue on a holy affectation between souls.
The abuse of fee collection shows the chaotic legal orders and further more desperation of some chinese women to find a foreign husband. Their desperation makes them easy to be taken advantage of. I feel sympathy for some who are wrongly charged unnecessary fees. But success fee itself is necessary to make this trade go on.
It is ideal but practically impossible not to charge success fees or any other fees packaged in a large amount for chinese women. The reason lies in the difference between their motives and yours.
Generally speaking, you try to find love and are promised a chance; they try to find a family and are promised a result.
As long as your letters are translated and sent to the ladies you are writing properly, no matter if you become a couple or not, you don't complain.
As long as they are helped to find a husband and form a family in a better environment with a better life, no matter how their letters are processed, they don't complain.
So you pay according to the quality and quantity of translation work you are offered. They pay according to the result. chnlove's profit-making system supports this. They charge from you and never a penny from women. Women are left in the hands of agencies. (some chinese women choose the way you do on other sites such as Match, but they are few)
Therefore success fee is not an uncalled-for imposition upon them.
When to charge the fee meets ethical problems more than you know. There are honest women taken advantages of by agencies. There are also honest agencies taken advantages of by women. More often than not agencies try to charge as fast as possible even without plausible reasons while some women try to play tricks and avoid paying success fees and marry their men and go abroad secretly. Still I think contract is the legal foundation.
The disputes of timely paying success fee is never a problem we can solve in this single post. But I think what I reveal here touches more profound things. The comparision I made is a little arbitary and is only part of reality. I myself am still striving to find deeper reality and even truth. I wish you lads find it earlier than I do. :icon_cool:
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The abuse of fee collection shows the chaotic legal orders and further more desperation of some chinese women to find a foreign husband.
I wonder if you would mind going into some of the reasons Chinese women want to find a foreign husband so desperately. I mean, we've all read about the diferences between Chinese and foreign men's attitude toward women, what in your opinion drives that. There are obviously many relationships that are working very well in China. I've heard also that there is a large man to woman ratio in China.
Not that I mind, I've got a beautiful girlfriend I love and plan to marry.
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Proteus,
I thank you for your thought provoking posts. Your forthrightness helps us keep a balanced picture on this business. I have two questions interlinked. 1. There has been some discussion on how effective this group really is it he grand scheme of ChnLove, what is your opinion? 2. From what I am reading in your posts, is that we would be better served to have our/the ladies band together to make the changes in this system.
I would think the ladies would be upset over fake women and unfair fees or an agency that is known to be so bad that it is boycotted by any group. Therefore cutting down the chances of them finding their "family". And if that is the case, in your opinion, what would be the best method to get that information to the ladies themselves?
In my case I would refuse to pay any success fee. In my case, the lady only received about 9 letters out of 60 or so EMF's. She was almost dragged into meeting me when I came, as I had threatened them with political action if she was not there. As it turned out DESPITE Chnlove NOT BECAUSE OF Chnlove she and i have fallen in love and are going to be married on my next trip. My lady said she got the results she paid for. (That backs up what you have said). I am with Mike on this. I would not pay them one nickel because of their shoddy practices and this is from a shoddy agency. Market Garden in Beijing. I know the results are there but I hate rewarding criminal and unethical behavior. I think not fulfilling what I paid for in the EMF's by not delivering them or leading me on is at least unethical if not criminal in nature.
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JimB I think you make some good point brother.But the agencies would never let the ladies get together.And talk about the things we discuss.If the ladies did get together and talk.Half of theese agencies would be out of buissnes
Proteus I don't agree.With your statment.That the ladies don't care about the quality of the translation but the results.I know 3 women who were very angre when they found out the words that the translaters were putting in the letters.It was not a proper translation therefore it caused conflict.In the relationship.2 of the ladies worked it out with there Husbands.The third ladies translater was so bad that she was sending the letters to my wife.So that I could translate them to my wife and then she could send it to her friend.
The translaters need to be held accountable for there actions.The agencies need to be held accountable for there actions.Bad translation bad agencies.Are what is Ruinning Chnlove Buissnes.I know you told us that you are a translater.But maybe you could help Chnlove out and tell them how bad some of theese agencies are.There by helping theese guys out.And helping the ladies out.
As far as I know there is no numbers on how many relationships.The bad agencies and bad translaters have ruined.But I'm sure it is quite a few.And there is plenty of people.
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Maxx, extremely valid points. Proteous what kind of English level does your agency require of the working translators. I know from my experience teaching in Asia that many times native Chinese or native Japanese English teacher's English speaking skills are that of a five year old. The writing skills depends on how much they practice on a regular basis. If a translator majored in English in college yet hasn't really kept up on her English ability in years what is her actual translations like. I studied Japanese for a year in college yet haven't activelly practiced it in 10 years. Yes, I still speak the language yet have forgotten most of it. Luckily I just met a Chinese girl who also speaks Japanese. Point is that like Maxx said these people need to be held accountable for bad service. The ladies will never be given the opportunity to band together because it is not in the agencies best interest. Also, I'de like to point out just because you are employed in a specific field does not mean you are any good at your job. The time I've been on Chnlove I've run across some major misunderstandings with probably all the women I was in contact with. Fotunately it was sorted out usually the next letter. But a few I didn't decide to pursue the translation was childlike at best and was probably the deciding factor on cutting and running early. Now we are starting to get down to the nitty gritty with our issues. Ultimately we only want to be treated with respect and honesty. These agencies are only viewing the short term goals and not looking at the big picture. Yes, if we are without morals or ethics we can rake in the big money yet in the long term this thinking can only help destroy credibility. Ten years along the line is what these agencies should be looking at. Longevity is the priority they should have and not the quick buck today. I feel for the brothers stateside and in the other countries because 99% of them are forced to go through trial and error because of greed. I've been mulling over the whole Chnlove grand scheme of things and have come to the conclusion that in the beginning all of us were being taken for a ride. When I say that I mean the form profile, form letters for the first few responses. I have no problem with the translators coaching and helping what the women say yet I know from my own experience much of what was said was said just to supposedly help things along. That is fine and well yet after the two meet there isn't any real chemistry because the words were just what you wanted to hear and not necessarily the truth. Who's fault is it? The relationship could never work because it was really based on deception and not mutual compatibilty. The lucky ones that have succeeded I applaud thier perseverence and envy them somewhat. Little white lies is one thing but some of these agencies are just flat out criminals. If this were in the states these dirtballs would be getting put behind bars were they belong. The Chinese seem to think whatever it takes to make the money is okay, all in love and war is fair. It is a lot of garbage, the agencies and the people running them understand ethics they just refuse to acknowledge them. With that rant I would also like to say that I do think there are plenty of good agencies there because of the guys still getting engaged and married here. Proteous I am not on any other dating site but Chnlove at present. Right now I am not actively pursuing it because of time and money yet I still believe in it. It is much simpler meeting women right in my own city. Living here I know exactly where I stand in any relationship. No grey areas except for the usual with women in general. With this new thread all of the brothers have a better chance of avoiding the pitfall many of us has encountered.
China Shark Mike
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i will comment on that
I am one of the ones that lost a lady to bad translator which in the end cost chnlove 24 credits , i really did care for this lady and someone there sure messed up translation on a couple of things and ended our relationship , he also tried to cover it up and made a bigger mess than what it would have been , i have no hope for ever getting a lady from chnl;ove , i am just glad that i did find one in a round about way , which we plan to marry at new years eve in hong kong
sorry had to vent
Bruce
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i will comment on that
I am one of the ones that lost a lady to bad translator which in the end cost chnlove 24 credits , i really did care for this lady and someone there sure messed up translation on a couple of things and ended our relationship , he also tried to cover it up and made a bigger mess than what it would have been , i have no hope for ever getting a lady from chnl;ove , i am just glad that i did find one in a round about way , which we plan to marry at new years eve in hong kong
sorry had to vent
Bruce
Bruce,
What was the round about way?
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I blame the microwave. Get it now generation. Dont wait for anything.
Mike, I think when you said "you" you actually meant "someone". Just didnt want someone thinking you were attacking Proteus.
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Ed
I got lucky i guess , seen a profile on another site , and one of the last days after i got fed up with chnlove i seen the same picture of a lady ,went back to the other site sent her a email , I have been talking with this lady out of chnlove's site since April almost everyday for 1 to 2 hour on QQ or msn or yahoo .I have met her mother ,father,daughter,brother and his wife .Since it was not on chnlove site i found her , but her profile was there , i will not have any of those fees and will never pay any of them to any agency.
I got lucky and found the Lady for me
Bruce
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Congratulations Brucie, you are lucky enough to find someone whose English is good enough that you do not need a translator. But that is rare. At least in the beginning most need the translator until they feel comfortable enough to try on another venue.
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I'm deeply grateful to your feedback. It is always my desire to know how the whole trade is run and through you I learn some first-hand information about other agencies running. When information are gathered, they come closer to truth.
Maxx I understand your disagreement and in the clients of our agencies I think there are still 20-30% who really care and insist in being genuine in their letters. Usually they are discouraged, with "good" reason, "advisers are more experienced in letter composition, and since you already you pay for the service, why still do what they promise to do for you?" ( mind you, translators are usually called advisers by chinese clients) :icon_cool: And you give me hints of situation in other agencies. If we can find out totally how many women really care for authenticity of their letters, we will have the answer.
My apology and request to Jim, can you make this question,"1. There has been some discussion on how effective this group really is it he grand scheme of ChnLove, what is your opinion?" into plainer English? My English needs still improvement.:blush: I will answer your questions together with it in next post.
Neil, thank you for your good questions. I agree there are cultural differences that leads to different ways chinese and western men treating women but surely we won't jump to say one is superior to the other, right? What you heard, in my opinion is a kind of cliche ads this trade produced. Praises for western men's good qualities, often in an exaggerated way, are seen in almost every agency's ads to women.
Now in china it is about 107 men : 100 women and the amount of men is continuing outnumbering women. But I think it's something government should worry and a backfire effect of some men's stubborn pursuit to have a son as successor of the family name.
More important question is still this one, why some Chinese women want to find a foreign husband desperately? The evidence is as clear and accessible to you as to me, the amount of fees they paid. Let's for convenience set the price of a credit as $5. If you decide to make a sincere effort to find a wife on this site, I think an innitial investment of 200 credits will be enough, which means $1000, about 1/30 of average American annual income. While on the side of women, it's common to see them pay more than 10000 RMB, only as an innitial fee and the whole price can amount to 50000 RMB ~ 100000 RMB. Average annual income for Chinese people in 2008 is 15781 RMB. Therefore sometimes they risk their total savings to gamble a result. In this sense, I call it desperation.
The psychology behind their dicisions are more difficult to analyse. I believe frustration in attpemts to marry in china and blind belief that all western countries are el dorado, agency ads are usually accountable for this too, are two major ones. Those women who easily fall into mercy of agencies are often less educated or informed of real overseas world. I am glad to see more and more chinese women are opening eyes to the whole world and become immune to agencies' misleading ads and can maturely pursue their happiness.
I understand in Bruce's and Jim's feeling to success fees in your examples, if I were you I would make the same choice as you did. I still have something to say about this topic, in next post before I make some preparation.
Mike, you and Bruce raised a new topic that I haven't paid enough attention before, qualification of translators. This is again something chnlove has no rights to control directly. They can only give pressure through their rating of the service agencies provide. As to their choice between long-term or short-term, I will say more in next post with some preparation.
see you soon. :icon_cool:
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Proteus,
My apology and request to Jim, can you make this question,"1. There has been some discussion on how effective this group really is it he grand scheme of ChnLove, what is your opinion?" into plainer English? My English needs still improvement.Blush I will answer your questions together with it in next post.
My apology for not making it easily understandable. Your English is so good that we sometimes forget it is not your native language.
What I mean to ask is, What we call the Brotherhood here in this group of men, does Chnlove pay real attention to us as a Hornet with a stinger or just say what we want to hear in order to make a mosquito go away?
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This is a queston for Proteus,
First let me say that I am grateful for your presence and participation here. It shows me that the people in the agency really do care about helping people connect. From the things you share, I can see it appear in the communication between the lady I am corresponding with and myself. I know it is her words but I can tell there is influence on the crafting of the message. She is learning english and needs the translator services. The influence I discuss I am seeing as a friendship sort of influence, very much like how friends give advice on relationships.
My question for you is around success rate. There are nearly 7000 women on chnlove. Do you have a sense as to how many lead to successful marriage between cultures and how many of those marriages last?
Are there horror stories the women are sharing with the agencies regarding their experiences with the men they are meeting. I would like to understand things from the women's point of view as I am becoming very fond of the women I met and would like to avoid mis-understanding's based upon cultural differences.
She & I talk about how one's views & outlook are important and that compatibility in this area is critical. We noted that even within the same culture views & outlooks can be different.
Thoughts?
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The image I attached in last post is this. Our further discussion needs information from it.
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AsiaMatch (Hong Kong) Matchingsaking Service Website
Contract of service to female member and privacy protection
Authorized agencies from AsiaMatch (chnlove) provide you the service as profile publishing, EMF sending and receiving through our site, translation and so on. We edit this contract constantly, so you can contact your agency to provide you latest version. New contracts take effect immediately after published on net and replace old ones. If you don’t agree with clauses below, please stop using our service.
1.Requirements for becoming a member
You must be a lady above 18 years old and are legally able to find a spouse according to your local laws. You will not have intentions other than seeking marriage here.
2.Application for profile publishing
You must fill the “Application of Publishing Female Member Profile” in person. You promise that all the information you provide in the application form is real. You will provide at least one color graph of yourself. You will provide real and accessible contact ways.
3.Profile publishing, modifying, hiding and deleting
If necessary, chnlove has the right to contact through the ways you provide and verify authenticity of information in your profiles. After your profile passes our check, it will be published on service platforms of Chnlove.com and Asiamatch.com. At any time, you can get your profile modified, hidden or deleted through your agency.
4.Service
EMF sending, receiving, printing, and translating are free to you. You are required to reply male member’s EMF timely. In letters honesty and politeness are required. If you do not want to continue communication with a male member, you should explain the reason in a polite way. If in three days you fail to reply male member’s letter or be contacted by us through the phone number you provided or your letters are dishonest, we have the right to delete your profile. You must abide by laws when using our service. If your misdeeds incur loss to other members, agencies or other people, we may resort to lawsuits.
5.Money Issues
You must be honest in any occasions. You are prohibited from asking money from male members in any ways or by any reasons. Before you get into a marriage with a male member, you cannot accept big deals of money he voluntarily offer. If you violate this clause, we have the right to take methods we think appropriate, including but not confined to, deleting your profile.
6.Fees
All the service we provide to female members requires no fees. In other words, we don’t charge any monetary benefits from female members. But we accept only female members from our authorized agencies. And they provide service to you. It is possible for them to charge some fees from you because of their operation cost. We declare here agencies have no rights to charge any fees from you through EFM sending, receiving, printing, and translating. The economic relationship between you and your agency has nothing to do with chnlove and we undertake no legal responsibility regarding to issues between you and your agency.
7.Nonresponsibility
We undertake no responsibility of results caused by accidental forces other than intention of chnlove and authorized agencies.
8.Privacy Protection
When you submit your profile to chnlove, you give us authorization to use the information provided in your profile. We will not give other party your information or put your information into other uses. But if male members doubt authenticity of your profile and make complaints to us, we have the right to show them your information to prove you are real.
9.Declaration of Risk
Please be careful in online dating. You are supposed to understand the risks you may meet. You agree to be responsible for all the outcomes after your profile published.
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Vince, total male members on chnlove exceeds 200,000 but it is too difficult to find how many of them are active members. But I've heard that most major match making sites (such as Match.com and other domestic ones in China) have an active member rate less than 10%.
Hi hellerjk, to be honest, success rate of international marriage and the rate of lasting marriages are now not high enough to be uplifting. I think the major reason is that some women and men confuse what they want and what they can get. For your concern, I can give you some hints of what a woman generally cares most from her overseas BF, economy, criminal record, how soon you will visit her, if you are visiting her only, how much support you can give her after you meet and before you finally get together. And I think it is wise for you to suggest her keep improving English, direct and effective communication will sort out a lot of misunderstandings.
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Proteus,
My apology and request to Jim, can you make this question,"1. There has been some discussion on how effective this group really is it he grand scheme of ChnLove, what is your opinion?" into plainer English? My English needs still improvement.Blush I will answer your questions together with it in next post.
My apology for not making it easily understandable. Your English is so good that we sometimes forget it is not your native language.
What I mean to ask is, What we call the Brotherhood here in this group of men, does Chnlove pay real attention to us as a Hornet with a stinger or just say what we want to hear in order to make a mosquito go away?
Damn Sarge...you were doing good till the hornet and the stinger thing.
Proteus...what Jim is asking is...Has chnlove taken notice of our group? Do you think chnlove cares that we can now act in numbers? Are we a threat to them at all?
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Thank you Jim, I would like first wish you a successful trip to Wuhan! Now let's come back to our big questions. I think how much chnlove cares about the existence of this group, depends on how much pressure we can give them. I've suggested my female colleagues visit this forum. None of them showed much curiosity. As for me, I come here not for job and surely I have my desire. I say it here again, "I need your power as a united group to reduces cheats and hurts."
Your other question mentioned a union between male members and female members. I gave deep thoughts to it and feel I need to be very careful in explaining my thoughts. I would like to start our discussion with this premise, there are good and bad individuals in every fields, do you agree?
In most cases, when you (plural) want to start a communication with Chinese women, you need a bridge to solve the language difference. Chnlove and agencies are supposed and carry the obligation to be that bridge. Now your suggestion implies a desire to find another bridge, which implies an overall disappointment to chnlove service, right? Here I will apply the premise, so far I have no good idea to find another bridge better than chnlove and can be immune from bad individuals.
More importantly comes here. I understand many of you have a negative feeling toward some agencies. According to my limited experience, this negative feeling extends beyond only agencies. I hope it won't surprise you to hear such a remark which truly took place from one of my clients to me, "I won't marry this guy, he don't even have a house, but keep him hooked as a backup until I meet the next." Again, bad individuals don't speak for all. But stories similar to this one make me try to find the answer to this question, whether what is to your best interest will be to the ladies. Answer to this question will let us know if you and them have enough foundation to unite.
Surely when you finally marry, you come to the mutual end. But in how to pursue the result. I think it is acceptable to say you care for honesty more and ladies care for efficiency more. Now let's read clause 6 in the contract. It is not allowed for agencies to charge any fees from them through EFM sending, receiving, printing, and translating. Apart from them, what service can agency provide ladies to charge a fee often amounts to more than their annual income? That's the service different from you enjoy. Therefore, for some of them, it is to their best interest to have a packaged service which will bring them a result ASAP. I am not very optimistic that everyone of them will be as interested as you are in doing everything themselves.
Now Mike we can discuss our question here too. Sometimes it's really a prisoner's dilemma for agencies.
The cake of profit is there, if you don't bite it, others will. From clause 6, if ladies draft admirer letters, respond cupid nots and write EMF all by themselves, there's nothing left for agencies to charge from them. Then what agencies provide to them is merely a platform. From only providing a platform, there is little that honest agencies can charge to maintain their running. Honest agencies cannot survive, skilled ones can. A best agency (in a balanced sense) is one which incurs least complaints, makes most credits and successful couples, by all means. But credits are much more easily to make than successful marriages while honesty might lead to nothing. So I understand why it is easy to see so many credits driven agencies.
With what I said above, I understand our pursuit for honesty will probably harm economic benefits of a lot agencies and even chnlove itself (and maybe myself). But I don't believe in profit, I believe in justice. A promise is a promise, chnlove is responsible to provide what they promise.
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Well said Proteous. You are reaffirming my faith in that someone is actually looking out for us. Appreciate the honesty with the answers even they are not the ones I want to hear. Yes, I realize money makes the world go round. In the grand scheme of things I do agree to a certain extent the necessity of the form letters, cupids, etc. My point is that there needs to be a line drawn at a certain point. It is not fair to the ladies or the men to perpetuate lies to simple make a profit. Money can still be made but without so much plotting and scheming on the part of the agencies. Guys I honestly think we are making an impact to the agencies as well as Chnlove for the simple fact that Proteous is here. Guarentee quite a few of others are on this site from the agencies as well as Chnlove because our numbers are growing we are no longer the small minority we once were. Solidarity is what will force changes to be made. Yes, a certain amount of creeps {men and women} {incidently the woman who required the house is scum and hope no one gets hooked up with that character} that will always be here so we'll just have to be more vigilant and aware before investing too much time or energy in a woman. Honesty might be overated yet it is one of the number one qualities I am actually looking for in my future soulmate. Integrity anymore is a rather rare quality in todays modern day capitialist China. In many respects this part of thier culture is no different than our own cultures. Get what you can while you can anyway you can. Person I am subletting the apartment from rounded my 1,050 rmbs up to 1,100 rmbs for no other reason than to grift me out of 50 rmbs and this is a really sweet women. Different country same rules of dog eat dog mentality.
Keep up the posts Proteous I am enjoying the exchange of information. One day you have to let me buy you dinner, seem like you have a conscience and integrity that so many of your collegues lack.
China Shark Mike
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if there are 200.000 members all activly seeking a wife
and the last if there are 7,000 women on there makes things sort of hard for each make looking for a wife
28 men for every 1 woman ?????
Uncle Brucie
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if there are 200.000 members all activly seeking a wife
and the last if there are 7,000 women on there makes things sort of hard for each make looking for a wife
28 men for every 1 woman ?????
Uncle Brucie
No Brothas Brucie ... only 10% are active members ... so 20,000 ... so the ratio is more like 3 to 1. You can probably reduce this ratio even down further because most active members are not serious.
Proteus ... thanks for your information postings ... at your agency, how many male clients are there ??? ... and how many lady profiles are there ???
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Vince ... I think you're giving too much credit to ChnLove to say that they have 100,000 active members. If that's the case, our Forum membership of over 100 members account for only 1/10 of 1%. We went through this % discussion before on FaceBook. The average active members' percentage of dating sites is 10% ( which Proteus also stated ). ChnLove wouldn't be any different. If there are 100 core agencies, each agency has 1,000 male clients to write back EMFs ??? Judging by the profiles, there seem to be 25 agencies at most. so they have 4,000 male clients ??? I seriously doubt that. They would need 100s of translators.
Now you have other guys worrying about nothing.
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Vince, good and practical way to view things. Nothing is ever set in stone until after the initial meeting. If chemistry is there like it is
in the letters you are golden.
China Shark Mike
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Hi Everyone, my greeting before going to bed. I would like to request your caution in reading my previous two or three posts because a large part of them are my personal deductions. I see how far conclusions can run away from realities when possibilities multiply possibilities. It is logical to come to the ratio of 20 men : 1 women upon the information I provided. However, truth is light-years far away.
Our agency now has around 150 ladies' profiles available, about 50 of them have EMFs running. We receive about 60 EMFs a day. And the ladies' popularity is not a peaceful middle-class one but a highly competitive and polarized one, 10% very popular, 40% sometimes have EMFs, 40% seldom, 10% never.
An average 30s lady may have 10-20 letters the first week, from about 3 to 5 males. Letters surely get less as time goes by. But agerage is not typical. It depends on many factors.
Still I want to repeat my advocacy here. I hope more and more of you can try to get chinese versions of ladies' letters. Vince, maybe you can try it too. A polite footnote to the translator by just saying you are learning chinese and want some souvenirs will do it. It is harmless because you place no pressure on ladies themselves and translators have no excuse to refuse as long as the letters are real. And if they do attepmt to find excuse, you know the truth. I have tried attaching before but was discouaged by our manager. I am an individual and I need your power as a group. :fi_lone_ranger:
Good night!
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Still I want to repeat my advocacy here. I hope more and more of you can try to get chinese versions of ladies' letters. Vince, maybe you can try it too. A polite footnote to the translator by just saying you are learning chinese and want some souvenirs will do it. It is harmless because you place no pressure on ladies themselves and translators have no excuse to refuse as long as the letters are real. And if they do attepmt to find excuse, you know the truth. I have tried attaching before but was discouaged by our manager. I am an individual and I need your power as a group. :fi_lone_ranger:
Good night!
Hi Proteus , you know this has alway's been one of the Items , we wanted to have from Chnlove , to be able not only to enjoy the Lady's letter's in English , but also get the Chinese version along with it . I myself love to see my Wife's handwriting , even though I don't understand or know what it say's , but it is so special to me just seeing it . This is so true , especially when receiving Card's through the Mail . There is not substitute for it . Receiving a Loved ones handwritten letter is of that value , equally . I also understand , this is not possible with reply's done over the Phone , as many are . So any way we could help to get this done , we do what ever it takes . Having you here and us behind you , just might get this to change their minds and make it come a part of their Policy . Thank you for all the insight's , you been a great help to many here and the ones that will follow us .
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Still I want to repeat my advocacy here. I hope more and more of you can try to get chinese versions of ladies' letters.
I would also love to see some of my ladies letters in their original form. It's likely though, as you say, that some are taken verbally, some written by the translator and some written entirely by the lady so I could understand not being able to get all the letters. It would be a great way to help learn the language (if you are at that stage) and they would be wonderful keepsakes and possible clues to what has been "fluffed up" or expanded on by the translator. Great suggestion Proteus.
Someone should actually start this suggestion in the chnlove suggestion forum and we can all add our two cents to it.
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Proteus,
I guess i again did not make myself clear, for that I apologize. I meant that when we find a very bad agency, it would be in ours and the ladies best interest to band together to force them to change. Now as the EMF's are translated by the Agencies that is obviously not the way to contact them. That is why I was looking for an alternative. Nothing against Chnlove because we have reported true problems to them only to have the ladies back down because they are (supposedly) afraid of the agency. If we could talk to them direct they may trust that they have an organization behind them, they are not doing this all on their own.
I understand and agree that there are bad people in all occupations. But if the ownership rewards wrong behavior there are very few who will just not do it. You are an exception and I applaud your effort. We like yourself are trying to find a middle ground where both sides can be assured that they are being truthful as can be by the Agencies. If they do not do it on their own we want to force them to be or to go broke. You will never weed out all the bad ladies or the bad men. That is understood.
My one suggestion would be to boycott the Agency. A group letter telling them why. Then write a few letters to the ladies telling them why also, now thru their personal e mail if you can get it. Or some other method which is what I am asking for.
That was the reason I asked what Chnlove currently thought of us as a group. Do they think of us as a minor annoyance or someone to really pay attention to. Our numbers are small but vocal.
Thanks again.
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Just a small detail i wish to offer. My wife had no knowledge of chnlove and only knew of her agency but infact never visited the agency and only dealt with her friend who's a translator for the agency and all corrospondence was via email.
I think sometimes we think there's an asumed connection between the lady's and chnlove when in fact, I'd bet most dont even know if it's existance but only their knowledge of the agency they deal with.
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Ed , this is very true , funny how things happen , I met my Ying through another method , but then found that I had listed her in my favourites on Chnlove , she had no knowledge that she was in fact on that site , as her dealings were only with the local agency , and as the ladies cannot access their sites she was very surprised when recently they refreshed her profile , the local agency will not remove until she confirms with them that she has remarried .
As we do not want to create waves we have decided to shutup , and let sleeping dogs lie , as although she has paid the initial 5ooo yuan there is nothing to tie us to any other part of her contract , regards Robert .
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Proteus...are you still around?
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Was wondering the same thing Sarge.
Shark
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Hey guys.
I followed Proteus' advice regarding asking for the original letter and I received one! And it was authentic. I am now able to see the fluff the translator adds (a friend helped me). The fluff is just basically (in my girl & translators case) merely used to ensure te sentiment behind the words are understood.
I am so happy
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Hellerjk
This is really stating the obvious, but for some of the brothers who have never tried to learn a language, it is a really, really difficult thing to translate.
I knew this as a general principle, but now I have been studying Mandarin for a while, I know this from bitter experience *laughs*
Until you really know two languages very well, you don't realise that if you translate literally (word for word) the result is often just absolute rubbish. If you translate for meaning, then you're really guessing about the intention of what was said. This is often an exercise of imagination.
For example, when I wrote the previous paragraph was it my intention to show off, or to be helpful? When my woman writes to me, is is she going through the motions, or are her words sincere. Who is to know!
The fluff might be the heart of the message, or it might be less than nothing.
Ah well, it makes writing that much more interesting, doesn't it now? *laughs*
Danny
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Danny, I have to agree to a point with you. First yes having some knowledge of the langauge helps yet isn't the main component of the equation. In the beginning we all were faced with sifting through the translations because of either bad translators or overly eager to please the client translators. What it boils down to is thinking to yourself would any woman reguardless of her culture being saying these words at this point in communication. Many including myself have be lulled into a sense of security because we wanted the words so bad to be from her heart, all reason and logic leaves the room when affairs of the heart are invloved. We tend to ignore signs that ordinarily would stop us in our tracks. Dillusion is a common human trait known to be used quite frequently by the poverbial underdog. In retrospect we all see how we failed yet were blinded by the obssessive need for it to be real in our hearts. A big part of the blame can be put on us for putting blinders on and not paying attention to the road signs, caution, slow down, stop. It is so easy to put 100% blame on anyone because it releaves our conscience of any wrong doing on our part. To be honest I've been around awhile and was really taken back at how easily some of us are taken in. I was bamboozled a couple of times so I'm not exempt. Every coin has two sides to it. The agency justifies the need to make revenue while the clients actually take backseat because that is the way of the world. This forum has made an impact on Chnlove and the agencies, I've noticed less and less eye candy as of late and seemingly more profiles. If nothing else they have scaled back because of the potentional blowback. Enough digressing, another point I want to make about Chinese culture is that a lot of the average thinking can be assimilated by just being around native Chinese people on a daily basis. I know this is hard for the majority of guys only being able to spend two weeks here or there. But in the 6 months I've been here I've been privy to being around some many different types of people from all walks of life. I lived in one of the worst neighborhoods as well as one of the best in Shenzhen. I've been around gangster types with my friends and found them to be rather pleasant, prostitutes fill the streets yet you never see any problems where they're at. Chinese have an expression it doesn't matter, in America this would be viewed as indifference
or not caring about all, but in China the real translation is we cannot do anything about it so we will not worry about it. They are much more tolerant and peaceful than we could ever hope to be in life. We all take the deceit as trying to screw us over yet in reality it is just about making money nothing more nothing less. Capitalism has hit China like a tidal wave. Making money over here is everyone's number one priority. Thier mindset is to make more money then thier life will be better. Don't get me wrong I think it is aweful yet living here I'm getting a better understanding of the dynamics of Chinese culture. Langauge is the least of your worries about marrying a Chinese woman. My ex and I might have understood each other 15% yet it was never an issue, it was from being from two different social stratas that broke us apart. Just my ramblings and my rant for the day.
China Shark Mike
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Thanks Mike, that is one of the best pieces I have read here. It solidifies what I have been told before.
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O Proteus, where art thou, I finally have a question for you?
Guy's maybe you can offer me a suggestion. I have been talking with woman in Changsha since mid-April. At first the letters were great, she was wooing me and asking questions, joking around, then they changed, there is still some spark there but no questions from her, no wooing, a little joking every now and then. we were communicating 1-2 times a week; now it is just once a week. I asked for her phone number because it was available. The answer was no because she cannot speak English. OK, understandable.
At first she kept on asking me when I would come to China. She asked if I could come this summer since I have 10 weeks off in the summer. I told her not yet but that I want to. I've just hot too much happening right now to do that. Plus I am saving for the trip and I will have minor surgery on my hand next week and I will not be able to use it for 3-4 weeks. I finally tell her that I may be able to come after Christmas. She tells me that is too long to wait then eventually accepts it.
Later I ask her for a natural picture, one in everyday life. She tells me she does not have a camera. Well....... OK. I keep up with the picture asking and she says she will see if she can borrow one. I talk via email with her translator. The translator tells me that yes she does not have a camera but that she will try to help her with it. Then the translator suggests tells that a web cam chat might be good and would begin to talk with my sweetie about it. A few weeks later a picture appears, her and her 21 year old daughter. Yes the picture was different but still a pretty woman. She was afraid I might think she was ugly but I tell her she is still very beautiful.
I ask her to consider talking by email. She has no computer and is computer illiterate so she does not want to go to internet cafe. She is also afraid of expense. She told me at the beginning that she owns a restaurant and that a lot of people come there even a few local celebrities. She says it consumes a lot of her time. I understand that I own a business too. Could she really be that bad off financially?
So, I asked my sweetie in the last EMF about a web cam visit. She says she is too busy with her restaurant maybe we can try later. I have sent 2 emails to her translator asking her if she knew what issues there might be. Sent the first 3 days ago; no response. Sent the 2nd was 10 hours ago. It may be too soon to receive a response from that one.
This is P218 which everyone here thinks is a good agency. Anyone got any ideas?
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Shaun I think you are the issue at hand {pardon the unintentional pun}. Seems to me you only want to meet her on your own terms, you are asking but seemingly given nothing back in return. The interest is waning because you are making up reasons why you can't visit instead of reasons why you cannot visit. If you are having surgery on your hand what better opportunity than to spend maybe a month getting to know her. Your mindset is that of a typical westerner, me me, me. A relationship is about mutual feelings not just how you think things should be. You unintentionaliy threw up the gauntlet and telling her there really is no chance for you as a couple. How would you react in her situation. Yes, she might have limited English profiency and be really reluctant to give you more personal information because she is losing faith in the words you say to her. Words are cheap, actions speak the langauge she will understand. In my eyes I can totally sympathize with her plight. You ask for so much yet are willing to do so little. Many of these women have been toyed with by some of these so called men on Chnlove, what is she supposed to think or trust. If you stepped up your game by pushing it to the next level maybe she would start back with the joking and wooing. Stating you can't come till Christmas yet you have 10 weeks vacation this summer is giving her the message that she takes the backseat to everything else in your life. If I was in your shoes I'de get the surgery and as soon as I was recovered {maybe 2 weeks} I'de be on the first plane to get to know her for at least 2-3 week to find out if it is real and do we have a chance. No half stepping here, this is your life and hers why are you procrastinating already. She is only responding back to the way you are approaching her. She sees it as lose lose so why waste her time if you aren't willing to put in the equal amount of effort.
China Shark Mike
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Mr. China Shark ... Shaun did write that he's saving up for the trip and because of the hand surgery, what if there are complications ??? ... he needs to stay in the USA during the summer. We're not as fortuate as you to be able to live in China ... so lay off the personal guilt trip on Shaun. IMHO, their relationship needs to be more solidify before he goes over. They're only writing to each other 1-2 times a week. Right now, there are still some uncertainties. What Shaun is asking from her is not unreasonable. She's asking him to come over, he said during X-mas ... nothing wrong with that. They can continue to build their relationship up to that time. As with all relationships, things start to fizzle a bit after the initial contact hence the lack of wooing, jokes etc etc etc. Just restart them.
Shaun, I'm writing currently to a lady who owns a restaurant in Zhongshan. She also replies 1-2 times a week. She starts at 8 am, has a mid-day break, then she returns for the dinner rush and works until 1 am. Because of the competition and inexpensive prices, it's hard to make a fortune running a restaurant. Plus if you go over, she'll be at work for over 12 hours a day / 7 days a week. I grew up working in the restaurant industry for over 25 years, it's a hard business ... both mentally and physically. Ask her how much time she spends with her kid ??? ... that'll give you an indication of the time available for you.
IMHO ... stay the course with EMFs, webcam if possible and assure her that you'll be there for X-mas.
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I have not read the whole thread but what I have read it looks to me If the man said he would be there at christmas as long as he is there at christmas he is a man of his word. If he shows up sooner thats just a bonus for the both of them.
I think all of these women no matter when you tell them you can or will be in china to see them, they all want you to come sooner they get anxious and lose some patients. But it's understandable they are excited just as you are.
Stick to your guns be a man of your word and much respect you should receive for that. Dont get PW to quick lol
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Chong it has nothing to do about any type of personal guilt trip. It is my opinion and just as valid as anyone else's on here. Yes, you are a moderator on here yet have no right to dictate to others on how they should feel or speak. Your job is to monitor responses of the posts and not nercessarily interject your personal opinion. I will not get into a sparring match because that is not the point of my response. If you disagree with me that's fine yet don't feel you should try to set me straight, it's not your place.
China Shark Mike
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And it's your place to set Shaun straight ?????? Did I delete your post ???? .... No
I have my right to state my personal opinion on your post ( just like you did for Shaun's post ) whether I'm a MOD or not. The fact that I'm a MOD has nothing to do with anything.
You're telling the guy to get his act together, what do you call that ??? Based on his one post, you know his entire story & situation to tell him to come to China sooner than he wants ??? ... and that all he thinks is "me, me, me" and "give nothing back". If you replied that to me, I would be offended.
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Well, therein lies our dilemma, everyone views things differently including Shaun, the girl, you and I. Each of us has our own perception of reality. That is to say none is wrong or right just not on the same page. If I came across rude I apologize yet still stand by my words. I've obssessed enough over this thing and saw quite a few come and go by the wayside. If playing devil's advocate was wrong I will be the first person to come forward and admit I was wrong. I was simply viewing things from her perspective to try to figure this thing out. Hell, Chong how many have you been through and how many have I been through so far. Pretty sure you're at number 5 as well as I think I am. So there isn't an exact science to this thing. Yes, I have an advantage over you and also I deal with Chinese people everyday at work and when out with friends. This in itself gives me a better perspective than most westerners. I disagree that the joking and sweet words diminiss after time. I think the letters should be increasing in frequency and further serious talk about relationships should escalate not drop back. This woman is backing off because she feels it's not amounting to much. If anything I learned is you must keep progressing a little more as time passes. If the letters dropped back why is Shaun asking us for advice instead of asking her why. I would be addressing the translator as well as my girl once I started to feel bewildered on what was going on. If I was hard on him it was because I want him to succeed not fail. How many times did a westerner make these promises to her before. In her eyes she just wants some indication that it is possible and that it could happen. When I was sure about my girl I came over two months later like I said to prove I was the same man writing to her. No, you are right I do not know his entire situation yet I can read between the lines and have a pretty good idea of how Chinese women think. Young ones {23-27 yr olds} are generally unsure of what they want in life, {29-36 yr olds} are scrambling like there is no tommorrow to marry to get thier family off thier backs. These women that are over 30 do not have many options at this point in thier life's. One girl I was talking to whom I am very good friends with agreed and half jokingly said yes we should marry right away if it will only take a year to travel abroad with her. Another one from Chnlove asked if I knew anyone who would marry her friend as a means to an end to live in the states. I've been dating girls here and they really want a foreign husband yet they need to be sure he is really serious. If Shaun makes a real effort I'm sure he could turn this thing around in his favor. Pushing her into webcam and direct email or phone number is just not smart. In her time when she feels comfortable she will disclose all the necessary info. Who likes to be pressured reguardless of what's about.
China Shark Mike
Incidently it is China Shark, Mike, or Michael. Mr. Shark sounds kind of childish don't you think?? China Mike would even suffice.
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Guys,
Keep talking and offering info, I am taking an occasionaly look just to see what the responses are. I brought the issue here because I wanted some insight other than my own. There are not wrong answers at this point. Don't worry about people hurting my feelings Chong all I need at this point is input. Many of you are way past my novice experience and that is why I asked the question.
I will respond later once I see what the responses. Good input so far.
Thanks!!!!!!
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Shaun, I've been in contact with my lady in Qingdao since Dec 24th.
(1) I got her phone number, spoke maybe once or twice for about 5 minutes...
(2) Won't do the web cam because it's against her agency rules, well she said she would be 'breaking her contract'....
(3) Doesn't want to go to 'internet cafe', said it can be frightening.....
(4) have her email address we send email now and again, not long letters....
(5) have her Yahoo address but she never on it, have sent maybe one or two IM's to each other...
(6) Some Letters shorter
(7) I have asked her for agency translator for over the phone so I could call the agency and speak to her that way
The point I am trying to make is; These may be HER real Reasons
#1.....Not good English
#2.... Don't want to get into trouble with the agency
#3.... Don't want to get into 'Frightening situations
#4....Still need translators help
#5.... No computer at home
#6....She knows about my financial situation, or maybe she's had a long day and is tired?
#7....Was told, the agency cannot do that
However the letters we send each other is not about quantity, it's about the quality of what we are talking about in the previous letters....In the 110 letters I have received from her only 2 were short, and in the same respect some (more than 2) have been quite short compared to the length I usually write. What I want to do is 'SEE' her and 'TALK' to her, but if she don't feel ready then 'WHY' push it, I understand about the cost of Emf's guys, at the start I used to to send about 4/5 a week, now it's down to 3 one week and 2 the next.
I have 'felt' like asking the agency for these things, but as one member told me when I spoke to him through yahoo, you may make her 'lose' face by going behind her back, and as you people know, THAT is something that I would never want to do....
Oh and she knows that I cannot go there to see her until November this year, obviously wanted me there quicker, but understood why I couldn't..So in total that will have been 11 whole months of Emf's with no look see, or talk to, But because of the feelings we have for each other we are waiting, one more thing I will say, it is 'Bloody Hard'.
I hope this may take some of your thoughts and show you that 'she' maybe thinking about 'your' situation, sorry if I've got this wrong.
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OK. When I replied earlier I was in the middle of a project at home. Done for now.
Mike. Wow, I hadn't even considered the perspective you talked about. You are more than likely dead on. I went back and re-read most of the letters back and forth. At first we discussed me visiting this summer and then I discovered a few things that will affect my finances as a result of the divorce and may affect the finances for a while. It was at that point I made up my mind for December. I really never spelled it out to Huaping. I simply told her that this summer was out and it would be after Christmas. Prior to that, she asked me what Christianity was about, rather than trying to tell her via EMF I asked for her address and said I would send something to her. Well, it hasn't even arrived here yet and I've said nothing to her about it. So your right it looks very one sided to her.
Vince, I can be so narrow in looking at things sometimes. Good grief, I have an extra digital camera sitting in my house and was wondering what I should do with it. Second thought though it is used and does have a couple of small issues. Your idea sound better; one with it's own printer. I will check it out.
Chong, thank for the support but really everyone needs a Mike in their life. He appears to be one of those kind of guys that see though the smoke an mirrors and see what the issue is and speak to the issue and calls it what it is. He doesn't sugar coat it, he just tells it like it is. I've read most of what he has said on this site. About 99% of the time he is dead on. If you read enough of what he says, you realize he has compassion and is considerate but when he speaks to an issue he simply speaks. I was also able to glean some things for you also that will help.
Mike I wouldn't say you are rude, you are just a straight shooter and you call it like you see it. That is a good thing. I brought this issue up not expecting people to day poor old Shaun, and not because I want Huaping to woo me but because I do not want the relationship to end. The only reason I mention the wooing was that I noticed the change in that first. I know it can't always be that way.
If there was a way to go to China today I would do it but it is not financially possible right now. I might be able to go before Christmas but the school system I work for really frowns on taking school days off for personal reasons and I think I should honor that if at all possible. Somehow I do not think they would believe me if I called in sick every day for a couple of weeks from China.
And as I said when I first came to this site. You guys are the ones with the knowledge and experience. My job here right now is to listen and learn. I am sure this will not be the only bump in the road.
Thanks for all of your insight.
Scottish Rob, thanks for your reply. The one thing I can say is that none of this is easy. But it does have its merits. It is so different and most everyone I talk to here is against it. So thanks for tell me, it takes a huge amount of patience and a lot of trust to walk though all of this. Patience isn't something that comes easy for me.
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First of Shaun let me deal with theese two knuckleheads.Michael, Chong you two know the rules.If you to are going to have a lovers spat you need to do it in private not in the open forum you have both ben warned before.I will start deleting this stuff all it does is breed hate and discontent.
Shaun what it sounds like.Is real close to what Michael told you.You and the lady were talking about meeting in the summer and now it will be after Christmass.
So that put her off.You can make all kinds of promises to a Chinese women.SHe won't beleave you till you actually do them.She has heard this all before from the other men in her life.Actions do speak louder then words.
Your looking at a long stretch at 8 months from the day you started.That may be to long of a wate for this women.After you already told her you would be there in the summer.It's eather time to find another women.Or fix this problem.
To fix this problem you will need to send the lady some flowers.With a little card telling her how sorry you are and how foolish you are.Then figure out a time that you can go to China sooner then December.If you can't figure out a time to go in the next couple of months it would probably be best for you and the women to find other people to write to.
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Shaun ... based on knowing more about your situation and your last post ... I owe China Shark an apology. SORRY MIKE !!! If I'm wrong, I'll admit it. But like yourself Mike, I'll still tell it like I see it. We ain't always going to see eye-to-eye on things and opinions. After all, we're Brothas here.
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Maxx, Thanks for your input. I went back and re-read what I wrote. She was asking for a summer visit and I wasn't sure until I understood the financial implications in the divorce. Just that alone ruled a summer visit out. Then my doctor wanted to do surgery on my right hand July 10, I will not be able to carry anything for 3 weeks. I never promised a summer visit, I would have liked to, I wish I could go today.
Nothing would be more fun to me than to go recover from surgery in China. But, Chong already said it, she works 12 hours a day in the restaurant she owns. She does all the cooking and I imagine the restaurant does not have enough manpower to run without her. So I can't do that to her. The week after I am released from the doctor I go back to work. I will have to make up for it in other ways just not travel right now.
I get 4 days off in October, 5 in November and 15 days beginning December 21st. It is what it is. Government schools can pretty much dictate what we do.
I am at the point where she will either hang in there or move on but I will be able to say I tried if everything fails, except the travel issue and really there is nothing I can do about that. I don't want it to fail, she is kind of special to me.
As far as Mike and Chong, I didn't have a problem differing with each other, even arguing a little I just didn't want that to become the focus. I am not saying it would but sometimes when two people argue more info comes out as it did in this case. Both personalities are needed on this site. Both personalities produce stimulating conversation and help to give insight. All of their conversation back and forth stimulated good information.
I have a very close friend here in Georgia, we argue about several thing because we do not see eye to eye on the issues. A stranger might think we hate each other, but we are the best of friends. At the end of the argument we shake hands, sometimes even hug and agree to disagree. Instead of warning them and rebuking, why don't you try to encourage them to agree to disagree.
Chong, one more point. I can't post every last detail. Most of the people here would not read it, I would not, so I tried to hit the highlights.
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Well, Shaun I think your own the road to recovery in salvaging this internet relationship. It is a difficult thing doing this rather untraditional courting. I don't mean to ruffle feathers it is just who I am. Mincing words was never my forte so I stick with what I know. I think if you take Maxxe's advice and send flowers I think you could turn things around. Next letter go into specific details on why the trip is not possible sooner. If you clear these issues up I'm sure you'll be doing much better.
China Shark Mike
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Hi there, Proteus.
I also forgot to welcome you, sorry, so.
I got a question, because it is a bit important for me.
Ok, men pay a service on Chnlove to talk with ladies, and may can see them.
When does Chnlove services's stop to "help" each member?
I mean, ok, we can talk to ladies, if we have any difficulties, you may can help.
We can see ladies and if we need translator, you can help, too.
But... what about if we have to face with traditional parents and that they scare about foreigners? Can't Chnlove try to help the member who has met a lady, by arranging an apointment with the ladies's parents and (maybe) talking about the honesty and happyness of the foreigner who speaks to the lady since many months?
Because I'm living that situation in fact, and I would also know if you can provide any "help" for that..
As I think, who never tries, never knows.
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Well men again thanks for all of the support and advice. I tried to communicate with the translator and it took 4 days before she finally responded. We had a good talk and I was encouraged.
So, I wrote Luaping starting with a sincere apology then explained everything in detail. It seemed like a month before she replied. Then today it came. Man, she let me know what it was like to wait for my letter when it was overdue. The short side of the story is that all is good and we will work though it. She thanked me for opening up a little more and now understands why I have delayed the trip and looks forward to December and as she put it, “the very end of December.” So she has in her way let me know that it is a long wait. Her real personality is beginning to come out and is more like what most of you have said from experience on this site. That sounds kind of cold but it is not. I have seen where many me have been blindsided by once they got to China and I would prefer to see it before I get there. After today’s letter I can tell you all, she is real.
Vince I took your advice and will send a camera and printer. Bought one on eBay but will have to send it back and find another. The quality was just not there.
I have not sent flowers yet, and I discussed this issue with the translator, but am looking for something a little more personal and memorable for her. I do have an idea and will tell you if I go through with it and it works. Nothing against flowers but when you have to do a little damage control I’ve always tried to do something a little more spectacular. Something no one has ever done for her.
Again I am thankful for all of you and the collective wisdom you have. China Mike don’t ever let anyone convince you to not tell it like you see it.
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Shaun that was a Kodak I checked out. It has it's own base to sit in which is also a viewer/printer. I no linger have the model number but they weren't to expensive.
I won a Kodak Easy Share on eBay after you suggested it. The person made it sound like it was in mint condition but had a lot of scratches on it. There was a cable missing and no booklet so I sent it back.
I will try for the same again. Kodak makes a good product and this one looks easy to use.
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Thanks Mike
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Vince, I have 7 or 8 256 almost filled and one 512 almost filled. Have the direct memory card slot in the labtop so I load as I get them. But sometimes I keep the cards loaded for fear of something happening to the pc. Besides memory is so cheap to buy anymore. Buy a nice nylon case or plastic cases for extra protection in transit. One more thing to remember you can never take enough pix when in Asia. When I lived in Japan for a year I must have taken at least 1,200 pictures and that was before the advent of digital cameras. Figure I've been in country six months and imagine I've taken at least 800 pictures probably a lot more though.
China Shark Mike