China Romance
General Discussion and Useful Links => Newbies Corner => Topic started by: Paul Todd on November 01, 2010, 07:28:24 am
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“Honesty” is a common flash point between Chinese and us lowly laowai, and sometimes we even feel that our Chinese ladies are lying to us. They say they agree even when they don’t, and reply, “OK” even when they mean, “Not really.” Even if we later realizes that they didn’t intend to disrespect us we could easily be forgiven in thinking that Chinese politeness requires lying. But things look different from the Chinese side, one of the biggest complaints my Chinese friends have against us is that too often we think that Chinese people lie to us. From their perspective, they’re communicating perfectly clearly and often being extra courteous. It’s frustrating and offensive to them when we accuse them of lying, especially when their going out of their way to be nice to us!
In every culture there are genuine liars who disrespect and cheat others and apart from watching out for these types of people there’s nothing much else we can do about them. Saying that,quite often I've seen the breakdown of a relationship here blamed squarely on the Chinese women saying they lied or they only love money ect....When more often than I would care to admit it's the uglier side of our Western culture that bubbles to the surface over time that makes married life unbearable. The Chinese probably don’t intend to deceive us any more than Westerners do and if it seems like they are, most likely we are just reading them wrong. The problem is largely about conflicting culturally-conditioned communication styles, not dishonesty and it can plague our personal relationships here in China if we are not careful.
I think we can all agree that every day we each “say” a lot without using words. Even when we do use words, nonverbal “statements” can be so powerful that the meanings conveyed by our posture, tone, facial expression, timing, or the context in which we’re speaking can sometimes completely override the literal meaning of our words. Not all cultures rely on nonverbal signals to the same degree, the Chinese typically express more of their meaning through nonverbal signals than we do. We all make regular use of both verbal and nonverbal forms of communication, but comparatively, Westerners are more “tuned in” to the words; Chinese are more tuned into the nonverbal channels .A style of communication that especially emphasizes nonverbal signals makes it easy to clearly communicate a meaning that is different or the opposite of the words’ literal meaning. To us who focus relatively more on the literal meaning and fail to “hear” many of the nonverbal cues, this can easily look like lying.
So when a Chinese person wants to communicate a certain meaning to us they take their intended message and express large portions of it through these non verbal cues. The actual words themselves may be relatively understated and hinting. But we notices the literal meaning of the words more than anything else. We may also notice some of the nonverbal signals but probably don't understand most of them anyway. This leaves us thinking we understood the conversation clearly, but it’s only a matter of time before we realise sadly that we didn't. How many of us have been in this position? Now our Chinese friend will probably act on the meaning they intended to communicate and when they don’t do what we thought they “said” they would do, it looks an awful lot like lying. They call this the “Meaning Beyond the Words” (言外之意)
Is all this really necessary? You bet your face it is! All this laborious subtlety can annoy sh** out of us, well sometimes it does me anyway. Why can’t they just “say what they mean”? They certainly have no problem being blunt when they’re publicly commenting on how fat we are, asking about our personal finances, or telling us what big noses we have! This too is another misconception on our part. Gao and Ting-Toomey, who’ve co-authored my favourite all-around book about Chinese communication for Westerners, which ought to be mandatory reading for all Westerners in China, say this about 关心 talk.....
" …guān xīn (关心； “to show concern”) talk is a communicative genre that occupies a prominent position in Chinese relational communication. Guān xīn entails asking questions about a person’s well-being and other personal matters… “To show concern” also evokes the use of cautionary remarks, such as, “You should not drink too much because it is not good for your health” or “You should put on some warm clothes because it is cold outside”… Quàn jiě (劝解； “to caution and to advise”) is widely employed to show concern for others in Chinese culture…"
Now of course, to Westerners all this public meddling in our private affairs is astonishingly offensive,but that's another story.
Back to our original idea of lying....First, it helps to remember that one Chinese scholar called “face” Chinese culture’s “social grammar” – blunt, direct talk is reckless. Indirect, implicit meanings are less potentially threatening to one another’s “face.” Of course, “face” is a concern that we neither understand nor know much about, but it’s an unavoidable characteristic of Chinese interaction.
OK as an English teacher here I'm often approached by parents to give their darling children English lessons. I don't want to do this a lot of the time so I'm left in an awkward position. How do I refuse, without them losing face? Saying “no” to these kinds of people can be pretty difficult, at least, difficult if you really want to be culturally appropriate, not cause offense, and in some cases, continue a relationship with the person (especially when they are people I see regularly). The typical polite Chinese response to this kind of situation looks like a straight up lie to us. But in China, it’s hard sometimes for us to know when a lie is a lie, and when a “lie” is actually the most considerate and appreciated response. We all know a lot of Westerners who feel that, unless you’re sheltering Jews from Nazis, you shouldn’t tell lies, period. I lean that way myself. But China throws this kind of ethic a curve ball. What can I do ?...... I tell them I'm in the middle of getting my phone number changed and I don't yet have the new one. That’s a lie – relatively harmless and obvious, but definitely a lie. Does that make a difference in this case? What if everyone involved understands the words “my phone number is being switched at the moment” to actually mean “I don’t want to give you my phone number, but I also don’t want to create any bad feelings between us and I care enough about our relationship to protect your face? The spoken words aren’t meant to be taken literally and they won’t be, but plenty of meaning is still accurately conveyed. The meaning isn’t in the words; it’s “beyond the words”
They might not like that I refused, but they’ll see that I’m refusing in the nicest way possible. In fact if I tell this ‘lie,’ “…they might even think, ‘Wow, this foreigner really knows Chinese culture and how to be polite!’
The book I mentioned earlier is called "Communicating Effectively with the Chinese" (1998) by Ge Gao,Ting-Toomey
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Paul , as is the norm with your writings this is a great read , many thanks Sujuan and Robert .
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An excellent post, Paul. It shows another big difference between the western and the eastern worlds.
The Chinese way communication is different. But are they really lying? Isn't it depending on the interpretation of what is being said?
Most of us know this: one person says, "this lady has big balloons". The second person says to the first person, "You have a dirty imagination!". Who of those two has the dirty imagination? 8)
Most of us grew up in the part of the world where we have been taught not to lie. The Chinese have been taught it is most important not to "take face" from others.
They tell lies because you we westerners interpret them in such way. For the Chinese people it is just the usual form of communication.
Thanks for your nice post, Paul. I really enjoyed reading it.
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I agree too Paul, great read. I do understand this concept of how they answer without really telling you a "lie". I just don't like their answer lookin like a "lie".
I think that I may have to get the book and do some reading. I don't want to ask my chinese girlfriend something and get the wrong idea from her. My girlfriends english is very good, and no, it was not a preference. So I know that language is not a problem. (my parents and a couple of my friends have talked with her on line and they too say her english is good) We still have had the odd time that she has given me an answer that did look deceptive. I found it was how I asked the question that was the problem. I just try to think about my question before I ask it now.
Dave C
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Love the post Paul,
My Ping refuses to chat with me anymore,and insists that we talk on the phone instead. Which is fine by me (love the sound of her voice) While her English ain't bad (it's kind of goodly) :o she can verbalize better than she can written-ize. :o You understand me? (<----which is Ping's favorite line)to which I always answer "Yes" then she asks again and I usually say "No" ;)
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My wife is always telling me what she thinks I want to hear. It makes it very hard sometimes to learn about her, what are her likes and dislikes.
Like the other day we were shopping. She knows I like things like Chicken hearts and gizzards. So when I ask her if she liked the liver we were looking at she say's oh yes.
When the butcher started to package it for us, I had her stop at only a small amount. My wife say's that is not enough, so I told her get all that you want for yourself, because I don't care for any. Now she is really confused as it turns out she hates the stuff as much as I do.
And things like this are constant. One of the hardest things to do that I have not fully acomplished yet. Is to teach this woman that her life wth me is not all about me.
It is about both of us. She is always telling me I just want to make you happy. And my reply is always the same. To make me happy you must also be happy, this is the only way.
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Some more of my musings. Trying to make some sense of the culture I find myself surrounded by....I suppose it's to be expected that when we enter into any new culture especially one as seemingly incomprehensible as China's that lots of stuff can seem annoying or offensive, couple that with the language barrier and it's all to easy to become overwhelmed as some have found out. Understanding the reasons why people behave in certain ways can certainly help take the edge off those feelings.
Here's one that anyone who’s spent time here knows all about and one that I've been trying to get to the bottom of. Chinese people can be some of the most generous and accommodating hosts on the planet,so why is it that the same people who display warm, inviting, and consistent hospitality and graciousness in one situation can display unapologetic heartlessness in another? All you have to do is step outside to experience this. In most public situations be it on a bus, driving in traffic, at any train station or supermarket we see them pushing and shoving being rude, impolite, and inconsiderate on a grand scale.
From my experience of Chinese society so far, how you stand in relationship to someone else defines how you should and shouldn’t relate to them, including your degree of obligation.These different relationship categories fall roughly into family and close friends, guests, important connections, and strangers. "Zì ji ren" insider and "Wai ren" outsider are two of the most important concepts in Chinese society and they make clear distinctions between the two. A person with an insider status often enjoys privileges and special treatment beyond an outsider’s comprehension. So understanding this distinction is important for us to learn. We also need to recognize not only where we are in relation to others but also, more importantly, whether this relationship is situated in an in-group or out-group context. The notions of insiders and outsiders seems to be an integral part of the Chinese self-conception. You also have to factor in guan-xi and face, but that's for another story!
Chinese responses are usually based on the nature of a pre-existing, specific relationship. The only other principle that might guide behaviour towards strangers is the Chinese ‘Golden Rule’ of Confucius,who is attributed with a statement in the 6th Century that "One should not extend harm to others which one would not wish for one’s self". This however is in the negative and prohibits harmful acts rather than promoting helpful ones. It is quite different in its consequences from doing unto others as you would have them do unto you.
This apparent lack of compassion for the stranger is highlighted by the biting cynicism directed at any would-be "do gooder." Why, if someone does dare to help, are they automatically viewed with suspicion and often assumed guilty? Why are altruistic motives the least likely of all possibilities? Here’s the most quotable Chinese explanation I’ve come across so far....
" To Chinese, social work always looks like “meddling with other people’s business.” A man enthusiastic for social reform or in fact for any kind of public work always looks a little bit ridiculous. We discount his sincerity. We cannot understand him. What does he mean by going out of his way to do all this work? Is he courting publicity? Why is he not loyal to his family and why does he not get an official promotion and help his family first? We decide he is young, or else he is a deviation from the normal human type. There were always deviations from type, the … “chivalrous men,” but they were invariably of the bandit or vagabond class, unmarried, bachelors with good vagabond souls, willing to jump into the water to save an unknown drowning child. (Married men in China do not do that.) Or else they were married men who died penniless and made their wives and children suffer. We admire them, we love them, but we do not like to have them in the family.
It doesn’t help that playing for public sympathy is something of an art form in China, and apparent victims can incur a similar level cynicism and distrust.For example the story of a crowd of onlookers who side with an out of town driver of an expensive car rather than the poor local pedestrian who was "seemingly" run down. In the crowd’s view, the pedestrian deliberately got “hit” by an expensive car in an attempt to extort rich outsiders for compensation money, an allegedly common practice.
So where do we fit into this structure? "Laowai!" I hear it sometimes as I wander about. It's slang for "waiguoren" meaning foreigner. Waiguoren would directly translate to "outside-of-the-country-person." It's logical, and should suffice to describe foreigners. But laowai? A direct translation of this word I came across reflects the true feelings of some Chinese toward foreigners. Lao, a common word meaning old, can also be used to express "old friends." In other words, friends for a long time, or always. The second half of the word means outside. Direct translation: Always outside.
There is seemingly a schizophrenic attitude to us here on one hand Chinese companies are willing to pay high prices for fair-faced foreigners to join them as fake employees or business partners "White Guy in a Tie" events." Then there's this from the China law blog.....
"I was attending a banquet hosted by a delegation from a foreign [not for profit] organization that’s been in China for a long time, and has maintained a good relationship with the Chinese government. One of the guests at the banquet was a local academic who was helping us understand the government’s attitudes towards foreign organizations.At one point, a delegation member asked the scholar “what does the government think of us (the organization specifically). It was assumed the answer would be positive. Instead, the scholar, without hesitation said “They hate you. “But you are useful to them". :-\
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Having lived in many countries including west Africa I find the Chinese the most honest of all people that I have met and I include the Western World and both the USA and UK.
Ok, when we first come here we think all Chinese are going to 'rip us off'. But they do not steal from you. Here is is normal to haggle over everything. I have never seen so much lying around inside and OUTSIDE of shops that would have disappeared in any other country, Or wantonly destroyed for 'a laugh'.
Chinese on the whole are not thieves - business minded but not thieves. Not just because your a foreigner do you get quoted high prices so do the Chinese - They haggle and so should you.
Willy
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More of my ramblings tryng to understand the culture I'm living in. I hear a lot about Guan-xi.......
In a guan-xi relationship, each party has the right to make demands on the other and each party has the obligation to respond to these demands. It is very important to keep this network active. You have to make demands on the other person, otherwise, they can not make demands on you. Simple you might think!
Now once they have evaluated you and decided if you have enough face and guan-xi to be significant to them, they may initiate a relationship or not as the case may be. But to complicate matters us lowly laowai's are reluctant to make demands on other people as a rule because we would feel some how obligated to them.To Chinese people our refusal to ask them favors is just down right confusing. They have as I say initiated the relationship but we won’t play the game, in other words we rarely make demands of them! They then interpret this as disinterest on our part. Therefore, after they have made a few requests of us, they wander away thinking strange people these big noses. Of course, before they have wandered away, we have probably honored their requests and now feel taken or even exploited by them. I hear this all the time from whiny white guy's and it's unfortunate because it is usually incorrect. The feeling comes from our own misunderstanding of what is actually happening around us and our cultural inability to make demands upon them,not from them taking advantage of us in any way.
I've found that if you ask a person to do something and they don’t do it or if they give you vague or irrelevant answers it can mean one of several things. It could mean that the person upon whom the demand is being made really does not have the necessary connections to fulfill the requirement (so do your homework first) or that the person would now like to terminate the relationship. It could also be you do not have a guan-xi relation with them in the first place, or your guan-xi is not strong enough to make that kind of request. There are other predictable effects of making a request to an individual with whom you have no guan-xi one being the other person will redefine the request and will do something totally irrelevant. This is a surefire hint that you have asked the wrong person. ::)
The Chinese seem to divide the world into two types of people - the ones with whom they have guan-xi, and everybody else. To us, there appears to be a great discrepancy between the behavior of the Chinese towards people they know and towards the public in general. This discrepancy leads us think that no one takes care of the sick, the crippled and the starving. Contrary to these beliefs, the Chinese do take care of each other, but they take care of those people they know. They would think it foolish to go over to a stranger who is lying in the street, injured and offer help. A relationship, made without prior necessary information is considered a very dangerous and cumbersome thing. I have heard Chinese make derogatory remarks about foreigners whom they see on the street but that they do not know. This is “no guan-xi” behavior toward strangers. If however, a foreigner walks up to a Chinese person and asks them a question, their behavior changes. It changes because the situation changes. Now there is a face-to-face relationship. The foreign stranger is now seen as a guest in their country and they will become courteous and helpful on the whole. This can also drives us to distraction. We label this change “hypocrisy”. The same Chinese person who was yelling “foreign devil” at us a minute ago is now suddenly very helpful.......obviously hypocrisy.....Think again, whitey! ;)
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Wow Paul , I don't know if you make our Life's easier or harder with all this knowledge ??? :-\ But again , thank you for the Lesson ( Teacher of Chinese Culture ) .
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More of my ramblings tryng to understand the culture I'm living in. I hear a lot about Guan-xi.......
In a guan-xi relationship, each party has the right to make demands on the other and each party has the obligation to respond to these demands. It is very important to keep this network active. You have to make demands on the other person, otherwise, they can not make demands on you. Simple you might think!
when you get down to it, it's really just a formalised, customary ritualised system of rackign up favour points with aquaintances.
Heck, I do it all the time here, I'll call a mate to lend a hand with my 4x4 when I get stuck and he'll come around with his landrover and haul me out, and in return I've built raised beds for his wife.
Earlier yet, as a student flatting in a uni town, trading favours of cooking dinner or trading turns to do the dishes, against being the sober driver on a night out on the town (no public transport worth speaking of) was common.
Gaunxi isn't all THAT different to western favour trading, just a lot more formal.
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Always an issue when the other people are "they." Take each person as the come.
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Unfortunately MIA I am talking about a culture here, which by its very nature requires there to be more than one, so I think the plural "they" best fits that :)