China Romance
General Discussion and Useful Links => Ask An Experienced Member => Topic started by: ttwjr32 on March 01, 2010, 08:57:50 pm
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I have been looking into this with certain people who are with agencies
of the govt or have their freinds who work with the govt. In China it is
ok to have an agency and you will get a liscense for introducing a chinese man to a chinese lady. But it is very ILLEGAL here to have one who introduces a lady to a foreigner. And to accept money for that. Now what i am trying to find out is how these agencies like china love get away with doing this. Are they paying someone to look away? Is it the corruption that exists in the different provinces? Would it have to take Bejing to get involved? Just doing this with the time i have on hand and i might come up with somethinng that we could use against these bad agencies that seem to be abundant with chnlov.
A chinese man was just sent to prison for running one of these type of agencies in Shenzhen. And it was for a long time along with trying to do
it the right way. He wasnt trying to rip people off just trying to intro people who would marry for a fee. Anyway if and when i get more i will
post it here which could prove invaluable for the new or existing members here.
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ttwjr32
Any information you can get on this would be very helpful to us all.
This is a challenge to believe.
The more information we have the better off we will be.
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Well, wonder what they would/could do to a foriegner who came, met, and married a chinese lady for a fee, which could be called a bribe? Probably couldn't do anything about those who are already been there and have married their ladies and gotten out, but someone caught there doing this if they decided to crack down...they could make things very unpleasant.
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Hmm, if I were a foreign chinese man, would that be legal or illegal? I should think it is something very hard to enforce in practice, just like communism? A funny picture emerges of the salmons returning to their breeding grounds, running the gauntlet of hungry bears waiting along the banks....
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Possibly why Chnlove is based in Hong Kong, much more relaxed laws and rules there, as an Australian citizen I can go there for 6 months without even a visa, the asshats I work for had to bribe some government official to get me a 12 month multiple entry Z visa here in China but it only cost me about $50 all up so I'm not complaining.
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Personally I like having this over there heads. When they say there's a fee? What fee? Ohhh you mean the fee that your not licensed for? :icon_biggrin:
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exactly Vince,
i dont know why more people dont use this as there really is nothing that they
can do. Yes you can talk to some officials and they say they can but i all reality
they cannot. being based in hong kong is ok but the ones on the mainland really
cannot get a fee out of anyone if push comes to shove. dont let anyone tell you different
they use the emf to get more revenue and of course they do have the people that
pay the fee but you are actually in the drivers seat on that one
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I don't think I would end up paying much of a fee to an agency. I'd be a bit worried that they might send hired goons around though :dodgy:.
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Ted,
Any information on the guy they put in jail for this? How or why they caught him? Complaining man or woman that led to him being investigated?
Dave C
Ps. Changed my avatar just for Willy.
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Ps..... Changed my avatar just for Willy.
Dave
Thank you my friend for cheering me up...I love the aveator...
Hahahahahaa:icon_cheesygrin::icon_cheesygrin:
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from what i have been told the govt wants to crack down on these type of
agencies as i would assume that they want to keep all the ladies inhouse as
there is after all a shortage of women for the chinese men to marry.
he was just trying to make money and do introductions and i guess someone
in govt didnt like it. being illegal is a card they could use if they wanted to go
after people who do this.
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Ted,
Considering that most of these ladies have children by a first husband, very few of the Chinese men will have any interest in these ladies. And even if a man was interested in lady that is already a mother, the man's family would probably not accept her willingly!! Sad i know, ...but very true!!!
There are always so-called crackdowns going on in China, None amount to much, if it encroaches a side income for government officials. I suspect that he bluntly refused greasing someones hand, or that he upset someone that he shouldn't have. Could even have been a competitor in his area, and the government official that the competitor was paying bribe money to, had a hand in his demise...
David.....
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Just my thought on this. The woman are contracted to the various agencies to pay a sum of money in the event of an introduction and/or an eventual marriage.
If any of you on this forum are thinking yes well ok they are illegal so I will tell my lady not to pay then think carefully. You could lose the lady yourself.
The majority of women have an obligation to pay and as Chinese it is no consequence to them if the agency is legal or not they have made a committment. Try to get them to break that commitment and they will think twice about your honesty and character.
The fiorst lady I came to see contacted me as she was having problems with the agency trying to increase the charge to her for her having met me. I did some enquiries and found that this agency did not have the correct licence for Chinese nationals to be introduced to foreignersand Itold her to tell them that she would not pay anything becuase of this.
She asked me why I was trying to impune the reputation of not just herself but her family as well and she paid them the original amount that she was contracted for. She was definately not happy with me about my suggestion.
Willy
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Yes Willy, your correct. However, from her stand point she had already signed a contract and paid money, to go back on this. even if the place was illegal
would be to lose face for her and the family. So I can understaned her point of view.
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should be discussed first with your lady and definetely negotiated
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I'm wondering if one of their selling points to the ladies is that when they are introduced and then marry a foreign man that he will be rich and very willing to pay the obligation for them? It seems that the fees are very high and that most Chinese ladies would have a hard time paying it themselves.
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good point and probably true
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The very document which defines illegality of overseas matchmaking is issued as early as 1994. The full text is here,
??????????????????????1994?104??
????????????????????????????????1????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????2?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????3???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????4?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
General idea,
To enforce regulation of overseas matchmaking, protect rights of Chinese women and reputation of China,
1. It is prohibited to establish any agencies to practice overseas matchmaking. Domestic matchmaking agencies or individuals are not allowed to practice overseas matchmaking in any way.
2. Civil departments should cooperation with police and bureau for industry and commerce to find out any already established overseas matchmaking agencies and give due punishment.
3. Civil, security and diplomatic departments are prepared to receive revelations of overseas matchmaking agencies from any citizen. Any form of media is prohibited to put on advertisements for overseas matchmaking.
4. Any application for domestic matchmaking agencies will reach civil department of the province for approval. Only with that approval, commercial instrument will be given.
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From my own speculation, this document carries a twofold intention. First, 1994 is only several years after the political turmoil taking place in 1989. There was a considerably loud voice in government urging China to return to Mao's policies to cut off relations with capitalist countries in order to avoid "peaceful evolution". Overseas marriage is one of the dangers government fears. Second, till 1994, information of Southeast Asian women marrying into Hong Kong and Taiwan were aboundant. Yet much of it were not happy stories. It is natural and resaonable because of the economic gap between Southeat Asia and those rich areas. (stories of Japanese women with US soldiers after WWII and Vietnamese women with Chinese men nowadays usually carry similar tune). In this sense, the claim of the head line to "protect rights of Chinese women and reputation of China" is true.
Yet there is very complex situation for implement of this document. It defines vaguely responsibility of several civil departments but has no further specific announcements to guide them. So in actual practice, they often don't know how to act because reality is usually much more complicated than listed in the document. On the other hand, rationality and suitability of this document is pondered and doubted more and more. Unlike use of drugs, this business is not one we can judge right or wrong easily by moral standards. In this triangle situation between Chinese women, Foreign men and agencies, each part is sometimes vulnerable for its own reasons. Chinese women usually suffer from little knowledge of law and subsequent deceit, foreign men from language and culture barrier, agencies from lack of legal protection. So there are already voices for legalising and regulating overseas matchmaking heard in academic circles. I myself am for this view.
Chnlove is immune simply because Hong Kong enjoys certain atonomy allowing it. But strictly speaking , agencies that work with Chnlove in mainland China cannot enjoy that exempt. But in actuality, government seldom interfere unless they get complaints.
http://www.songtaste.com/play.php?song_id=585699
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As I understand it there is a special licence requirement to introduce Chinese Nationals to Foreigners. I am told that only 30 of these special licences have been issued. May be wrong but that is my info.
That would suggest that the vast majority of the independent Chnlove agencies do not have the special licence.
As the major percentage of the business of individual agencies does not involve foreign husbands they can get away with many things as they are to all intents just another match maker for Chinese Nationals to Chinese Nationals.
We may think that we are a major part of their business -but my info is we are not. Of course it is the major source of income for Chnlove hong kong but not the local agencies. They make money by matchmaking locals to locals.
That is maybe the reason that some members have found that their ladies do not want to move overseas when it comes to the crunch. They basically joined the local agency to find a husband - not just a foreign husband in the first place.
Each agency has many branch offices. If you name any agency you will probably find that they have maybe half a dozen or more branch offices with the same name in that same city.
Willy
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To enforce regulation of overseas matchmaking, protect rights of Chinese women and reputation of China,
1. It is prohibited to establish any agencies to practice overseas matchmaking. Domestic matchmaking agencies or individuals are not allowed to practice overseas matchmaking in any way.
2. Civil departments should cooperation with police and bureau for industry and commerce to find out any already established overseas matchmaking agencies and give due punishment.
3. Civil, security and diplomatic departments are prepared to receive revelations of overseas matchmaking agencies from any citizen. Any form of media is prohibited to put on advertisements for overseas matchmaking.
4. Any application for domestic matchmaking agencies will reach civil department of the province for approval. Only with that approval, commercial instrument will be given.
after reading #3 it would see that "any form of media" would include the internet, yet these ladies are advertized all over the internet and in fact depend on it.
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This is an Extract from posting I made in December.
It looks as if there is not a lot of control over these agencies.
Willy
But sources with the Guangzhou Municipal Commercial and Industrial Bureau said these two agencies were only registered to hook up people from within the country.
There are no regulations relating to the supervision and management of such dating agencies.
Many of them promise to find a customer a spouse within a certain amount of time. But legal experts said this is cheating because it gives people false hopes. Such a contract is invalid if it cannot be realized, lawyers said.
Some agencies promise the women that when they meet a foreigner and plan to get married, the agency can get them a visa to go abroad. But a visa, of course, depends on the embassy or consulate of the relevant country.
A reporter from the daily newspaper conducted an "underground" investigation early this month, in a bid to find out what was behind the two agencies.
The reporter was apparently told by the Ming'aoyuan agency to pay more than 20,000 yuan (US$2,470) to become a member of the agency and date foreigners.
The southern city of Guangzhou has seen an increasing matchmaking market in recent years as many people have a more tolerant attitude towards love and marriage.
The bureau and the civil affairs department in Guangzhou have warned people who are seeking love through matchmaking agencies to be cautious with contracts.
"The huge market has been a magnet for many, including illegal agencies who cheat customers," an official with the Guangzhou Civil Affairs Bureau said.
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well it boils down to if there are complaints then they could
very well penalize you severely otherwise they probably leave
you alone to make your money.
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It all depends on how the company/agency presents themselves. Chnlove says many of the members have "married". They don't say they have you married in a certain time? That's how they get away with it.
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I think what the article I posted was saying is that although the agencies need to be registered as a business there is no specific rules or regulations that apply to the running of these businesses - just the existing laws of the land. Such as fraud, theft etc.
But with Chlove being in Hong Kong a SAR then the laws of china do not apply to its operation.
Willy