China Romance
General Discussion and Useful Links => The Campfire => Topic started by: Arnold on March 08, 2011, 01:09:56 am
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I need to stop this Thread if it continues on a Religious Path or this Subject should be moved to the Religious Forum ( Thread ) we have already .
As it does not please some of our Member's and received PM's do to this . So out of respect to other's please ..
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In China, there are also some very good man pursue me, but they are not christians,
Let me see if I have got the right understanding about this issue :
It would be better to find a Christian Man who is a lying, cheating, theiving, wife-beating scumbag...than to settle for a kind, considerate, loving and devoted Agnostic or similar.....
........very strange !!!
Takes all sorts...................
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In China, there are also some very good man pursue me, but they are not christians,
Let me see if I have got the right understanding about this issue :
It would be better to find a Christian Man who is a lying, cheating, theiving, wife-beating scumbag...than to settle for a kind, considerate, loving and devoted Agnostic or similar.....
........very strange !!!
Takes all sorts...................
Shucks David. You've got my character off to a T. HaHa sounds like a members description of me. I have different views to many and you make a really good point - as usual.
Arnold does it matter where the thread is situated. It will still be on the first page until it gets tired. Those that read the heading can guess what the contents is and they DON'T have to read it.
Its like someone watching through a whole TV programme then complaining about it. Why not remove it if it upsets so many people. Then remove everything else that upsets anyone else. The forum would be empty.
What is the saying about 'may not like what you say but I will defend your right to say it'?? Did someone have that on here once.
Willy
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Yes Willy
Your point is well made, free speech must be defended at all costs.
I only have concerns that where free speech is concerned, so much hot air and hostility is generated when it comes to religion. It is a subject that is always filled with emotion and positional posturing that often logic and common sense become casualties. I know that I have a short fuse when it gets onto this subject, but I guess that is my problem.
Out of respect for others' views I try not to inflict my version of the World on them and out of courtesy, I hope thay can do the same for me. After all, we have so much more interesting, important and non-controversial things to discuss here.
I respect the rights of any individual to believe what they choose......I just hope for the same in return, but sadly , my experience is that the "Christians" cant ever leave it alone when I declare I truly have no, want no and have no interest in this subject...period.
I suppose that is the benefit of a Religious Thread, you can all share your views in a non-hostile environment...good luck to you.
But proselytising is part of the Dogma..is it not ?????
I used to have that quote from Voltaire as my logo...but after consideration, I felt it was very pompous and theoretical and it was a statement that I know I cannot entirely live up to....so I changed it ;D ;D ;D
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I don't think the trend should be closed but I do think it should be moved over to the Religious section. Any mention of religion sparks a ongoing trend that shifts away from the question asked. And no I didn't PM anybody about this.
For Rachel, it is best to find someone with as many things in common as yourself. The same religious philosophy would help, but just as a christian is not an answer. Here in the US to be christian does not mean you all have the same philosophy. The different Christian faiths teach different beliefs.
An example of this is there was a convoy buses filled with christians spreading the word that the world was ending? I think the world ended last week? or this week? I have many stories of christians that push their beliefs onto others to tell that I have seen with my own eyes and even debated face to face. So to say it's a touchy subject is to say the least.
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Mike , I know what the question was . I was only saying NOT to further on with Religious topic's and sway away from the original question ask . So this was not warning where it was .. but where it might lead .
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Well, here is my opinion, since I was the one that made up these rules. While i did set up a rule to not discus religion, I don't think that this falls under that heading. This is a thread discussing what is important to a member, in her search for a significant other.
What I was trying to avoid, when it came to religion, and politics falls under here too, was a thread that said, Hey, I am a Christian, and if the rest of you don't follow along, you are going to burn in hell. Because inevitably, everyone, including me, is going to want to get their two cents worth in.
While some may not agree with what she is looking for, I don't think this thread should be closed, or even moved. If she came on here, and said, hey, I can't find a good Buddhist man here in China, would we have the same reaction? I do think that if we keep with Rachel's original questions, concerns, and thoughts, then this thread should be able to move along, and provide insight not only to her, but also to anyone else in the future who feels the same way.
Just my thoughts.
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OK so let's leave it alone and get to the question. I think one can answer the question with out trying to save the world; as the fear of it presents itself. That being said I think it is good like others have said to marry a person who carries the same or very near the same moral values as you do. This is not to say other values outside mine are moral. There needs to be a commonality of beliefs between two people who have made a marriage covenant between each other.
For Example: It wouldn't be good for two people to marry if one believes that stealing is completely reprehensible and morally wrong and the partner believes that stealing in certain circumstances if acceptable and practices it.
I have seen in my years people married with two completely different belief systems and they almost always end in disaster. In 55 years of living I can think of only one couple who were successful at it. The worst I can remember was a Christian married to a Muslim.
While I would say it is possible for people with two differing religious faiths to be successful I would say that it is unlikely that it would happen. For me, this was one of the few reasons I took this road of finding a Chinese wife; shared values.
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as the question included the word FAITH .... and of course the answers also included the word FAITH....
also it was a certain member named RACHEL asking for direct and personal advice for herself .... not about dating in general, so the replies are about her and her FAITH
Mike...you are stretching the truth here.........
What got the juices flowing was the sinister and cryptic comment that "unequally yoked" was a least desirable outcome for a married couple.
I would think that the majority of marriages between Western men and Chinese women would have a disparity in religion....very few Chinese women are Christians. Thus any such mixed marriage is likely to be unequal in this specific area.
Thus, such rubbish leads on to the logical conclusion that such marriages are doomed...based on the tenets of YOUR Bible. What you dont discuss is the reason for such an elitist quote is that it has nothing to do with compatibility of viewpoints, but has everything to do with instilling fear into the hearts of "Christians" that they will suffer eternal Hellfire if they dont marry other Chhristians, so it is purely a brainwashing mechanism to provide the Machinery of religion with millions of new little Christians. After all, if you are "unequally yoked" there is a 50% chance that the child of the union may become something other than Christian.....witness the "Contract" a person of a different religion must enter into before he/she marries a Catholic.
What most Christians never do, is to have a good look at where Christianity came from...and it is not from Nazareth in 000 AD....it came from the Roman Emperor Constantine...and was invented for a very sinister reason...do some research, check it out.
In summary, dont you dare tell me I am unequally yoked with my Dear Wife...you have not got that right and I object violently
David A Evans
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Guys,
I know I'm not a moderator or anything, but maybe some of you should step back for a bit and let things cool down. It's getting a little heated in here...
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I agree with mustfocus. The thing is, nobody is pushing their religion, or beliefs on anyone...at least that is my perspective. So I am confused why this is taken to such a personal level? Maybe Arnold was right...maybe this thread should be closed. I don't want to do that, but that will be the next step.
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Martin, do me a favor. Break this off at Mike's comment about being unequally yoked and move it to the religion page. I would like to make a few remarks but we've hijacked this thread and it has taken on a whole new identity. That way those who want to talk about it can freely talk and those who would rather noe see or hear it can avoid it.
Then people can comment on Rachels thread as they wish.
Thanks.
David E, I would hope that you would go with us if Martin moves it over because I think this is a subject worth discussing. You know that I will not judge you for what you say but will have a good discussion about it. You and I have had many good discussions about religion before and we still remained friends. One of the things you do is make me think before I post and I need that every now and then.
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I think , that I owe Rachel an apology .. as she must feel now embarassed for ever starting this Thread and Question . There really was nothing wrong with what she wanted to know or tell us , it just took a turn somewhere of the Road so to speak . So I apologize as a Mod and hope this will not discourage her to continue Posting , let alone leaving the Forum over this .
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Rachel; just a comment from a different point of view. A bit of background. I am a son of a Presbyterian minister. Grandfather was a minister. So as you can see, my background is very much in the Christian side of the Universe. I am old enough (60) to know in China that Buddha, Tao, and Confucius are the three religions. I will say up front that I did not in the beginning or now consider religion to be the all important or main factor in my choice of a wife.
What is most important is love and the strength of character of the person you choose to marry. I have the belief that a true follower of Buddha will do good for all he/she comes in contact with. Will be gentle, loving and caring, respect nature, and all living creatures. This is the same philosophy as the Christians.
So if your desire is to marry a person from outside of china and religion is most important, then you must also look for that person who has the same level of importance in religion.
It is my hope that you first look for love, respect, honor, and a kind and caring heart. If you find that, then you most likely will have found a good match.
I wish you well.
As for my wife, we go to the temple as needed for prayers. I work at the Hospice on Sunday so I am spared the trip to the church.
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OK...I have split the thread. Keep it clean, keep it civil, and no attacking others for their personal beliefs.
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At least this got a bit of spirit back into this forum.
It needs a shake up from time to time just to stop it slipping into the dreaded comfort zone where the only words are for those embarking on or disembarking from the journey to China.
Maybe I will slip over to the Religion pages and express my unusual Christian Views there. But them is Christianity a religion?
Willy
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My girlfriend has a stronger faith than I do. I dont think it makes any difference in our relationship. We have similar values. I think that is far more important then whether you go to church and read the bible. There are good and bad people in all walks of life.
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I want to point out something, that has not been discussed. While there are discussions about what it says in the Bible, not everyone shares the same view. In fact, I am not just talking about Atheists, or people of other faiths. Even within the Christian faith, there are different views and different ways of reading the same thing. Case in point, in some Christian faiths, the woman is expected to stay home, raise a family, and almost be (or so it would seem) subservient to her husband. In other Christian groups, the husband and wife are equal. We can take it further. For every belief of one Christian group, there is another with a differing view.
I know there will be debate about what I am saying. Every group has its own set of core beliefs. None are wrong. Where you might not agree with something I believe in, that doesn't mean I am necessarily wrong. How many of you here think having more than one wife is wrong, both morally and ethically? Yet, there is a Mormon sect, a Christian based faith, that believes that this is completely acceptable, and can quote the Bible in their argument.
The same goes for this line of being unequally yoked. I think we need to be careful here when we are talking about the Bible, because there are many different interpretations of this book. Just as there are different interpretations of the Quran. I am not criticizing anyone who believes either of these books, and I am not saying that if they believe differently than me, that they are wrong. What I am saying, is that, there are people who are not Christians, who may read things here, and be confused about its meaning. It could even be interpreted that this is what we as Western Men believe. We have to be more careful!
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I was going to stay out of this.But I think Martin makes some good points.Religion is a touchy subject with most people.And like Martin says all the different religions.Do have different beliefs.So what do you do if your wife is a Buddhist a Christion or a Muslim.And you do not practice any of these religions.You probably should let your wife/girlfriend.Practice her religion in any way that she wants to.As long as it isn't dangerous or hurting someone.
Like most things in life it isn't a big deal until somebody makes it a big deal.So if your wife is say a Buddhist.And your not.Just go with the flow.You can always show your lady your religion latter.If your religion is important to you.Then maybe you should find a lady that.Belives as you do.
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hmm, religion, my niece, who has been a drug addict for five years and has in the last year been involved with a man whose family are Jehovah witnesses, now newly married decided to dis own the rest of the family because we do not have the same beleifes as her and her new husband ,,Religion has been the problem of many of the conflicts around this planet for about 2000 years or more, Sorry for stepping on anyone's toes but ....its my two cents worth...
aaarrrgh...maybe three cents worth.
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Maxx you brought is back to the initial point of this discussion. Should we marry a person whose faith differs from ours. There are so many varibles in that issue we don't have time to discuss each and every one of them.
Sure there are differing beliefs within the same religion. But in reality there are only a small hand of core beliefs that are not changeable, the rest is open for debate. The problem many times is what man puts into it to make it a part of his or her belief system. That is where we get into trouble.
Believe me I will post more as time permits.
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In my book people can believe whatever they please. Just don't try to make me swallow it. Trying to force me in anything never rubbed me the right way. I live in the middle of very large congregations, 10 thousand plus each sermon. Close enough that I can walk to most. Two are on TV Sunday morning broadcast nationally. One is actually pretty good. The other is so bad I start yelling at the TV and the leader of this church died two years ago but they still run it on TV like it's live?
In most religion is deeply rooted, born into it. Mine was Catholic. My uncle was even an deacon. I even have an ancestor that is up for sainthood. Yet I wanted to know, just the truth, where all these rules, delegated sins, etc came from.
I now have my own faith it's called, Chrisbubmusjew, it's just pure harmony.
Problem is there are to many rewritten bibles.
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Sure there are differing beliefs within the same religion. But in reality there are only a small hand of core beliefs that are not changeable, the rest is open for debate. The problem many times is what man puts into it to make it a part of his or her belief system. That is where we get into trouble.
That is the point I am trying to make. Yes, there is a core belief system. To use Christianity as an example, the core belief is that Jesus is the son of God. He died on the cross for the sins of all the people. That's the core belief, and I understand that. The part I am having difficulty with, is when you move away from the core belief, the rest becomes speculative. A good example of what I am talking about speculative. Many rules in Churches are based on Old Testament laws. For example, the law of Thithes. But, nowhere in the New Testament is there a command that says this must continue. So, if I come onto this forum, and tell everyone that they are required, by the Bible, to tithe 10%, I am in fact, telling people my interpretation. And this is the point I am trying to make. i am not saying people are wrong for their beliefs. I am not knocking people for their beliefs. i am only saying, that we have to be careful with what we say on these open boards, when it comes to our interpretation of the Bible...or other religious books for that matter. They get interpreted wrong by people who don't know what is fully being discussed. And some of those people might be ladies in China, who have zero understanding of our way of life, let along Christianity.
I am not trying to create any fights, so i hope my words are not interpreted that way.
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I got that point Martin. Funny you mention it, one debate I had years ago with my ex mother inlaw was about the tithe so it always comes to mind. When she told me the pastor told her that 15% of what she has has to go to the church?
It is mentioned in the New Testament as Jesus said to pay the tithe (taxman). He meant it as it's easier to pay the tax and avoid trouble. But of course it was changed to accommodate a greed.
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Oh gee...... So much food and so little time. Where do I begin. We first the reason there are so many different translations, not versions, of the Bible is a scholarly attempts to getting as close to accurate as possible. The problem isn't the Hebrew or Aramaic or Greek languages as much as the it is the English language and the many vernaculars there are.
Let me give you a few examples just in the English language. If a person were to say, "Can I bum a fag?" In England they would be given a cigarette, in America they would be given a dirty look or the wrong side of a fist, who know what the Canadians would think, and I even hesitate to mention the folks down under. ;D If it is pissing outside in England people would get an umbrella and in America a man could get arrested for it.
When my father was a young man if you were gay, you were happy, in my generation it means you are a homosexual and in my son's generation it means a person is a dork.
So there is a lot a person has to consider when reading a TRANSLATION of the Bible. Time, culture and Biblical backgrounds of the translators.
Did I mention that the different Bibles are translations and not versions? ;D ;D ;D
I hope you guys don't get angry with me I just feel that if we are going to discuss religious things them it needs to be accurate.
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Martin, Vince, it is interesting that you talk about the tithe. It is one of the most widely debated issues and stumbling blocks in the Bible.
Argument #1. And the most mentioned argument is that it is not mentioned in the New Testament. The argument is that since Jesus or Paul didn't say we should continue tithing then it should die with the old testament. Funny thing about the argument is that Jesus didn't say to do it but he didn't say NOT to do it either. So because we do not want to give our money away especially 10% of it people tend to select the idea that we shouldn't do it anymore.
Funny thing when it comes to money, we'll try to not pay our taxes either. Vince the passage you make reference to is about obedience period. Jesus said render the things of Caesar to Caesar and the things of God to God. In other words be obedient to your country, i.e. those who have been placed in authority over you, and be obedient to God.
The basic problem is that people will take one passage in the Bible and either build or destroy a doctrine on it. To maintain integrity one must consider the points I mentioned earlier in this post and the most important part is that it cannot contradict or be contrary to the rest of the Bible. There is a harmony that runs through all of the passages in the Bible and how they relate to each other. If one interprets it differently then it is heresy.
Now I hope that as you read this that you do not see a finger of condemnation from me or that I am telling you what to believe. What my goal in all of this is is to suggest to each of you that as you post things on religion to understand the framework in which it was intended to be built in. When you do that then you have a good framework in which you can discuss religion and the positives and negatives.
Also I have to apologize, I haven preached or taught in a while either so it just comes out naturally.
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I wasn't looking for a debate personally. I was trying to make a point. I used the tithe law, because it was the easiest to explain. However, since you brought up a point of whether or not Jesus said to continue or not to continue...with the arrival, and subsequent death of the messiah, all the old testament rules were just that..old. The new Testament era was upon the earth. In the old Testament, the rules were clearly spelled out. In the New Testament, the fact that everything was starting over, with a new set of rules, was also clearly spelled out. So again, I bring up the point I was trying to make in the beginning...not whether it is proper to tithe...that was simply the example. The point was, everyone has an opinion, or a different outlook on this. It goes back to what you said earlier Shaun, when you said that there is a base core of beliefs, and after that, there are small differences in beliefs. So what I was trying to say, was we have to be careful with what we write. Because it can easily be misinterpreted, and misunderstood.
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What most Christians never do, is to have a good look at where Christianity came from...and it is not from Nazareth in 000 AD....it came from the Roman Emperor Constantine...and was invented for a very sinister reason...do some research, check it out.
You're talking about the Roman Catholic Church there... Notice the name.. "Roman" = from Rome, "Catholic" = Universal, or Total. In Roman Catholic dogma, only the Roman Catholic church exists.
The thing is that while the Roman church is based on the teachings and interpretation of the Apostle Peter (Name means "Rock" and is the this meaning the Romans take the quote "Upon this rock I will found my church" by Jesus to mean Peters church is the one and only), the teachings and interpretations of the other Apostles in other directions around the region founded separate churches.
The Church of Ethiopia for example was founded by a different Apostle, Bartholomew or Thomas I believe, and is related to the church of India, totally isolated for hundreds of years from the European churches, never part of the Roman church cultures, but still Churches of Christ.
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Christianity began as a Jewish sect. No Apostle started a church. Christianity came about 4-5 CENTURIES later. There was a whole bunch of history happening between that time. Unless they were writing down every word Jesus spoke at the time he said it? it's uncertain of it's accuracy, let alone the translations, etc.
Examine that quote "Upon this rock I will found my church". Church? He was Jewish if anything the word would have been Temple. I'll even bet the word "church" wasn't even a word at that time? I will also bet he may have said something more of "Upon this rock I will found my Podium"? I'm just trying to show how things can change from a simple writing.
Logically
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Did a little search and found this interesting page called "The Word that Changed the World" about the word Church." > When Jesus said, “Upon this rock I will build my ekklesia.”
http://www.therealchurch.com/articles/the_word_that_changed_the_world.html (http://www.therealchurch.com/articles/the_word_that_changed_the_world.html)
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You know, I really wasn't trying to start a religious debate. I am torn about this thread being here, and what effect it is having. So I am going to close this thread, and we can have discussion on the "official" religion thread.