China Romance
All About China => Understanding Chinese Women => Topic started by: Paul Todd on January 13, 2010, 03:02:39 am
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Understanding Chinese Women
http://middlekingdomlife.com
Most foreign men, prior to visiting China—particularly ones who have never dated an Asian girl before—hold a stereotype of Chinese women that portrays them as these soft, demure, reserved, shy, alluring, and near ethereal-like "creatures." What Western men encounter instead is often something much closer to the polar opposite. Although it is difficult, if not nearly impossible, to generalize about women from any specific country or culture, there is a great deal of strong anecdotal evidence, as well as data from a few empirical research studies, to suggest that many Chinese women do share certain culturally-influenced and induced characteristics.
This unit will attempt to describe and explain the various factors at play that influence the psychosocial development of women in China today and how these express themselves in relationships with men.
Psychology of Chinese Women
When a son is born,
Let him sleep on the bed,
Clothe him with fine clothes,
And give him jade to play...
When a daughter is born,
Let her sleep on the ground,
Wrap her in common wrappings,
And give broken tiles to play...
From the Book of Songs (1000 – 700 B.C.)
Confucian Tradition
Confucian philosophy and doctrine still very much influence values and beliefs in current day China. According to Confucius, relationships among family members must follow a hierarchy of status according to generation, age, and gender. The elder family members hold a higher position than do younger members and men are absolutely superior to women (Baker, 1979). The enormous social importance of the relative status of each family member by age, gender, and generation is reflected in the Chinese language itself: There are no less than 52 different words in Mandarin used to describe family kinship as opposed to just 17 in English (Huang and Jia, 2008).
Historically in China, only the number of a man's sons would be used to refer to the size of his family. When a woman married, she was expected to leave her family to live with her husband in his hometown, where the wife was subordinate to the whims of her mother-in-law. In many non-urban regions of China, not much has changed.
It wasn't until the year 1912, after the revolution of Sun Yat-Sen, that the binding of women’s feet was banned but that practice continued unofficially throughout the countryside well into the 50s, until Chairman Mao eradicated it for good. One scholar estimates that 40 to 50% of Chinese women during the 19th century had their feet bound and, for the upper classes, that figure was as high as 100% (Lim, 2007). Certainly, one can still find women alive in China today whose feet were bound some 60 to 90 years ago.
It is undoubtedly true that many Chinese women today enjoy new personal freedoms that were previously, up until very recently, denied to them. But in mainland China, what is a matter of law does not necessarily equate to what is experienced as a matter of practice in day-to-day life. A country's four-thousand-year-old culturally-ingrained regard for its women cannot be eradicated overnight no matter how many changes and improvements in law are promulgated by its government.
One of the many latent effects of China's 1979 single child policy has been the ongoing selective abortion of female fetuses and, at best, the withholding of medical treatment from sick female infants in the countryside. It has been estimated that there are 120 men for every 100 women in China (Fragoso, 2007) and that ratio is even steeper in the more rural regions of China. In the absence of a significant social welfare infrastructure, a son is a parents' best—if not only—assurance for security in their old age.
One woman kills herself every four minutes in China and, according to the World Health Organization, it is the only country in the world where more women commit suicide than men (Allen, 2006). Two of the main reasons cited for this finding are the profound discrepancy in social status as well as the relatively high rate of domestic violence that women in China endure. Surveys conducted by the United Nations Development Fund for Women found that 35% of all women in China had been the victims of domestic violence and that China ranks 81 out of 177 listed countries in the Gender Development Index (2007). As a matter of social policy, domestic violence is primarily regarded in China as a private family affair and the authorities are reluctant, at best, to intervene. Particularly for poor and uneducated women in China, suicide is perceived as the only way to extricate themselves from a miserable existence.
Do You Think I'm Pretty?
To further complicate and aggravate matters, women in China are evaluated on physical appearance and overall attractiveness against standards of beauty that are based primarily on Western (European) facial features.
According to numerous news media reports as well as an online survey conducted by www.sina.com involving more than 5,000 respondents, Chinese standards of female attractiveness emphasize height (165 to 170cm), an oval face, long straight hair, wafer-like thinness, a pale complexion, a complete absence of moles and freckles, large eyes with a double-fold or crease in the eyelids, and a pronounced bridge of the nose (China Daily, 2005; Chen, 2008). Unfortunately, most of these features are not characteristically Chinese at all. The average height of Chinese women is 160cm (about 5' 3") as compared to 170cm (about 5' 7") for Chinese men.
In their quest to attain these features, more than 20,000 Chinese women flocked to just one public hospital in Shanghai alone over the course of a single year for cosmetic surgical procedures that mostly included blepharoplasty (eyelid surgery), rhinoplasty (nose job), malar augmentation (cheek implants), and augmentation mammoplasty (ABC News, 2008). In the latest statistics released by the Chinese government in 2005, it was estimated that US$2.4 billion dollars is spent annually on cosmetic surgery in China and that number has risen each year subsequent to China's removal of the ban on plastic surgery in 2001 (Chen, 2008).
In what is an annual multi-billion dollar industry, more than half of all Asians (mostly women), aged 25 to 34 years, use skin whiteners on a regular basis (CNN.com, 2002). The Chinese preference for clear, white or pale skin is pervasive and ubiquitous and, as such, Chinese women avoid exposure to the sun whenever possible and most carry parasols with them during the summer months (you will even see women riding bicycles with a parasol in one hand). For this reason primarily, you will rarely observe Chinese arriving at pools or the seaside before 5:00 p.m., i.e., when the sun begins to set. In addition, eating disorders, particularly bulimia nervosa (binge eating followed by purging), are increasing in prevalence in China at an alarming rate, especially among girls from higher income families aged 12 to 22 (Chen and Jackson, 2007). A revealing human interest story featured on the All-China Women's Federation website about two American-born Chinese (ABC) girls studying in Beijing, highlights their difficulties adjusting to cultural differences in regard to both weight and skin tone. The article notes that whereas both girls wore small sizes in the United States, in China they are considered "fat" (and are readily told so by both friends and casual acquaintances) and can only fit into large sizes (Martin, 2007). Whereas their skin tone would be considered healthy-looking by American standards, here they are both regarded as being way too "dark."
What all of this amounts to is that the vast majority of Chinese women are extremely insecure about their physical appearance, far more so than their Western counterparts. There is incredible social pressure on Chinese women to be extremely thin and those who don't meet their culture's nearly unattainable standards of beauty are reminded of it constantly—by parents, friends, teachers, and commercial advertisements that conspicuously feature either Western models or those of Eurasian ancestry. Young women who are considered too dark will spend what little money they earn to purchase whitening creams and those who can afford to do so will seek "corrective" plastic surgery (which, by the way, includes hymenorraphy, i.e., surgical restoration of the hymen). In fact, plastic surgery has become so pervasive and common in China today, the country actually hosted its first beauty pageant in 2004 specifically for women who are now considered to be beautiful as a direct result of these various cosmetic procedures, i.e., a pageant for former cosmetic surgery patients only (ABC News, 2008).
There is no doubt that Western and Chinese men maintain very different criteria for determining what constitutes a pretty Chinese girl, and this is actually one of the reasons behind some Chinese girls' attraction to foreign men. Obviously, if you are considered a "little ugly" by men of your own culture and then you come across a Western man who sincerely views and treats you as beautiful, it is understandable that the woman will be highly flattered, perhaps even grateful, and attracted in turn. The cultural difference in perception regarding what constitutes a pretty Chinese girl is so pronounced that one can actually find a public discussion among Chinese men on the China Daily forum titled "Do Foreign Men Have Ugly Chinese Girlfriends? http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/viewthread.php?gid=3&tid=496475&extra=page%3D4&page=1"
As a further illustration, in 2001, People magazine voted young Chinese actress Zhang Ziyi as one of the 50 most beautiful people in the world. However, when Peng Bo, president of the Shanghai Time Cosmetic Surgery Hospital, was asked to comment on Zhang's title and whether he personally considered her to be beautiful, he refused to give a direct answer to the question. Instead, he replied "I would only say her face is up to the standard of beauty. Zhang's job requires that she has to be assertive" (China Daily, 2005). In other words, according to at least one director of a cosmetic surgery center in China, Zhang does not qualify as one of the 50 most beautiful people in the world in 2001 as she just meets the standard of "beauty," and has a look that he apparently regards as too "assertive" or hard in appearance. Therefore, it is not surprising at all that Zhang Ziyi would eventually find herself a foreign boyfriend (multimillionaire Vivi Nevo). Obviously, if a young Chinese movie star of international acclaim for her beauty cannot pass muster in China, there isn't much hope here for the majority of women. And, in fact, this partially explains how Western men fit into the picture.
Summary
Day-to-day life in China is not easy for anyone, but it is fair to say that it is far more difficult for women than it is for men. Especially following the advent of the 1979 single-child policy, girls in China face a very unusual set of culture-specific dynamics unknown to the same degree in other societies. On one hand, their arrival into this world will be met with profound disappointment, especially by their fathers who may regard and resent them as a lost opportunity to perpetuate the family name, and both parents will fear an uncertain future in their old age. On the other hand, as their only child, they will still be, nevertheless, terribly pampered and spoiled. This particular constellation of factors results in an ideal cultural environment for producing an entire generation of women with profound narcissistic injury, i.e., women who suffer from a sense of constitutional damage coupled with an extreme sense of entitlement.
This is the first unit in a series that include:
Understanding Chinese Women
Narcissistic Types Among Chinese Women
Unavailability and Underrepresentation of English Speaking Chinese Women
Dating and Marital Preferences Among Young Chinese Women
Understanding The Attraction to Foreign Men
Dating Etiquette, Sex, and Relationships in China
How and Where Do I Find English-Speaking Chinese Women
Advantages to Having a Chinese Wife in China
Homosexual Relationships in China
Prostitution in China
The link to the next unit is http://middlekingdomlife.com/guide/narcissistic-types-chinese-women.htm. Read up and get some background info............
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This is some very heavy stuff to read... It makes me think about how the life must be for a woman in China today..
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always posting some really interesting reading Paul
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Peter,
Not as bad as some of these Forum reports make out... Many of the Chinese women looking for western hubby's, don't want to leave China!! That should tell you something. These reports are always a mixture of fact and fiction, and always slanted towards the way the writer wants it to go!!
David.....
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Excellent reading Paul, thanks!
Peter I second that, Chinese women often make leaving their country their second choice, sort of a sacrifice in order to attain happy married life. My ex actually avoided the sun after 12 years in France, not for the color of her skin but to avoid ageing too fast ... the Chinese women got that part right.
Frank
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Paul, Excellent info as usual. Thanks
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Info as per usual...OUTSTANDING:icon_cheesygrin:
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Really good read
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Very interesting Paul.. Thanks.
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Paul , you know I read this and printed it out on Paper and thought ... I will let Qing read it and see what her comment on this is . Well , she read the first couple paragraph's and she did look phycially upset over it :@ . She refused to read on ... as she said , this is by no mean true today or during her Parent's time . I try to convince her that many ( and I mean many ) western people have a totally wrong picture of China , just by the people I meet alone . I have mentioned this before , it upset's me to have to listen to someone badmouth China ... when he/she has no Idea of today's or the China of not too long ago .
My poor Sweetheart , it took her a while to calm down .
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Arnold,
So many of these reports and articles, are just someones perceptions, where they mix facts and fiction, to confuse and confound the real facts.... I'm sure most of the bad one's have been written by people that have spent minimal time in China....
Unless you know the Author of such reports/articles are trustworthy and factual, take them all with a good pinch of salt..... And Qing has just proved that point!!!
David....
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People I know and I won't say who, hear and read junk like that and believe China is still men in triangle hats pulling rickshaws? I sent them photos and articles of the bullet trains and of the cities there. Maybe they'll learn something? :-/
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Sorry about that Arnold and Qing, my intention was never to upset anyone.
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Paul , you don't have to apologize to either of us . I know and Qing knows that you never meant it to upset anyone . It just got her by surprise . She was shocked that anybody would write such things , as she or her Parent's never experienced such measures in their lifetime . Especially in the City's .
David and Vince are right with their Post's , this might of happened way back when and some fools still believe it to be still this way now .
So , Paul , please do continue to previte us with the alway's great artical's that we all appreciate here .
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i was always told "why are you going to china again" even after i have told them
of my adventures here and what i have seen ,many people in the states at least
think of china a a backwards country and at any given time you will be picked up
and thrown in jail. yes it is a little different here on everyday life but i told them
learn the culture and listen to me when i tell you what it is like there dont come
up with this perception you have of the country basing it on whatever you have
read or heard. especially on the news because when was the last time the news
would report good things?? they look for the sensational to report not the good
also most of the time
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i was always told "why are you going to china again" even after i have told them
of my adventures here and what i have seen ,many people in the states at least
think of china a a backwards country and at any given time you will be picked up
and thrown in jail. yes it is a little different here on everyday life but i told them
learn the culture and listen to me when i tell you what it is like there dont come
up with this perception you have of the country basing it on whatever you have
read or heard. especially on the news because when was the last time the news
would report good things?? they look for the sensational to report not the good
also most of the time
Ted,
For those of you who are educators please do not take offense by what I am about to say but, I think we can blame government education system on that. That is what is taught; even now.
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Hi guys,
Hardly anyone knows what China is really like. Heck, I met my lady in Wuhan, a thriving city the size of London yet 99% of Westerners have never heard of it. Even less people have heard of Yichang, and since I was the only Westerner there I guess I have to act as it's ambassador to the West!
On another board on which I frequent fed up American folk are starting to talk about not buying Chinese goods so that more jobs can't be exported to China. The thing is - it's too late. China is moving up the value chain faster than most folk realise. My lady doesn't work in a factory making iPods or sells bananas from the back of a truck. She's an interior designer. That's a decent middle class job.
Thanks to the drug smuggler execution/tibet/Google stories, my mum thinks that 50% of the population are secret police and the other 50% are hackers lol. She seems not to have noticed that our own government is suppressing free speech by banning muslim groups and lying through its teeth about what really happened in Iraq.
Actually, there's a program about Shanghai on the mainstream ITV1 TV channel tonight, it should educate a few more people as to what China is really like.
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When I said I was going to live in China people in the UK were warning me of the perils - of being cheated at every turning.
Where are these cheats and robbers - after 7 months the most that has happened to me is that I have picked up a few counterfeit notes - less than 10 GBP ound value altogether.
You want cheats and corruption then spend 6 months in Nigeria like I did. Every one is on the make there and I mean everyone. Not just to foreigners but to each other.
Right up until I got on the plane to go back to the UK I experienced it.
Even going through the security check - all bags and cases were searched unless you was to hand over a wad of Naira. Not clandestine in any way, the customs and security literally asked you if you want to pay or to have bags searched. No one knows what goes on planes to London and other cities from there.
Give me China every day - like the second day here when the taxi driver chased after me and handed me a note because I had not collected my 1 yuan change from him!!!
Willy
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Hmmm don't buy anything made in China to save jobs in your own country? We've had that trend in the 90's here in France, but there is no achievement perceptible, the French industry has evolved, many production sites got delocalized and not only to China. But if we stop buying Chinese products, many more jobs will be lost, for instance Walmart would go out of business, and I think they are the largest employer in the (Western?) world.
The preconceptions about China being a backwards country seem to be based purely on economic development and political system. What people forget is that Chinese culture reaches back far further than ours, and even the cultural revolution could not break this. So while average Chinese still have a lower standard of living than populations in the Western world, they are far from being savages, and they have a higher average IQ than Caucasians :P
China is already the most powerful country in the world, they hold the formerly most powerful country in the world by the cohones :angel: as they are the main contributor to finacing that country's huge trade deficit since Japan dropped out after the banking crisis of the mid 90's there.
The fact that Chinese think collective rather than individualistically like we do will make them even stronger in the future, unless that culture is broken by Western influence, but I don't see that happening in the short term.
Frank
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i dont really think the culture will be broken by any or all
western influence because they are curious and want to learn from us
but they do stick to their values and culture which i have seen to not
be a bad thing from living here and in fact it has changed some things
in me and how i act and percieve things yes you do see some strange
things here but i will say that overall it is a very safe country to live in
and can be very rewarding if you keep your eyes and ears open and dont
expect it to be like home ok my 2 cents worth :icon_cheesygrin:
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On another board on which I frequent fed up American folk are starting to talk about not buying Chinese goods so that more jobs can't be exported to China.
People don't realise that it's not a zero sum game. Everyone benefits when there is an increase in wealth in one country. When Chinese people are richer than they are now, they will buy more high value products from other countries.
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I can second that, on what Willy said about Nigeria, .... They do say, ...if you drop an atom bomb on Nigeria you'll do about 50 pence worth of damage!! haha!!
Another similar country would have to be Egypt, which i've been visiting quite regularly just lately on business. I tell you, ....if it's not tied down (with chain preferably..lol!!) it's gone in a blink of the eye!!
David.....
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I've often wondered how they got all those blocks to build the pyramids, It shows that the blocks wern't chained down....hahaha:icon_cheesygrin:
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Danny a lot of people just dont get it and ramble on with points that
make no sense at all
like i have been doing here - my 600 post i need to find something to do
in china while my wife is at work
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Ted,
Go out exploring, they'll be a hell of a lot to see, that you didn't know existed!! There are always fascinating places of interest you will just come accross by accident....
David
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Danny a lot of people just dont get it and ramble on with points that
make no sense at all
like i have been doing here - my 600 post i need to find something to do
in china while my wife is at work
Ted, when I met you there last time I was struck by how much of a people person you are. I remember you having the craic with the sales girls in Beijing street when we were there and how amicable a guy you are in person.
I reckon you would have a blast teaching English, the money wont be great but you will have a lot of fun I'm 100% certain!
Get the damn TESOL and start to enjoy your days again while your wife is working.
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i said that in jest (finding something to do) i usually do all my reading and
posting here when my wife goes to sleep. i do venture out and see and find
many interesting things out there. ive even taken my wife to a few places
she didnt know. i dont get lost anymore hahaha
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Ronan,
yea i remember the sales girls where we were at. i did have fun with them
but they had such great smiles i had to make them laugh
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I do not claim to be an expert on Chinese culture. I do think I may have a thought about the article cited in this post. I have traveled all over China and I found that in most places this article seems to be talking more of the early fifties at the latest in China. Although in many North east small farm communities it is fairly acurate in its assessment. I do say though it is most definately incorrect about the current culture in the bigger cities in the north and most if not all of the south of the country. I say this based on my travels through China and it is only my opinion of what I personaly saw there during my travels. There is a definate income and social status gap in China between men and women but there is also a larger one in America so I dare not throw stones. I have no idea about the rest of the world so I have no opinion on that either, I will leave that up to those who live in different countries to speak on them.
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Lee,
there is a significant difference between women and mens salaries in china
and the younger girls push the older ones out more often than not here.
a lot wider gap than in the states
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It was a very interesting read. I too got the feeling that the studies may be a little dated. Some do them from behind their desk reading older studies and such. I have just finished reading national geographic from may of 2008. The whole magazine was about china. It did not give you the impression that the chinese were still like they were in the first half of the 20th century. From the articles I got the idea that they were further ahead in their cultural revolution than I was lead to believe.
Dave
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i used to do that all the time Bee i subscribed to many magazines in the usa and ended up reading them
at a much later date
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And sometimes I read from back to front. Don't know why I do that.
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sometimes i do that with the newspaper
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I was not sure, should I make a new topic. Or just continue a old one. So I'll post here.
I was googling around with different words. I think all of this is said before. But it was nice to read anyway. And came with this story:
Chinese ladies seem to come in two basic varieties. Either they are very strong willed or extremely docile. Since I've never had any desire for a docile woman, I am discussing here that other type - "the steel rod swathed in flowers". This woman will care for you, cook for you, keep a great home for you and shower you with love and affection, and she will smote your enemies with the strength of God - so long as you don't cross her. But when you cross her, you immediately become your own worst enemy, and brother, then she will smote you.
The big problem is that you don't necessarily know what will be seen as having crossed her. In your innocent Western thinking you naively believe that so long as you are faithful and true, so long as you bring home the bacon, so long as you are polite and courteous and so long as you refrain from anything drastic like not coming home for two nights, or physically striking her, you should be pretty safe. Well surprise!!!
You cross your Chinese Lady when you cause her to lose face, and there are roughly a million ways to cause her to lose face, each one of which you must learn by trial and error. I have learned a few, but it does little good for me to list them for you, because "a little knowledge is a bad thing". It will just make you comfortable when you should least be comfortable. But I will give you an example of how I caused my Chinese wife (as she then was) to lose face.
We owned a small bar in China at the time which we took turns managing, and which we kept open as long as there was a paying customer to serve. One night she went home at 1 AM but I hung in there with some friends of mine (because they were spending a great deal of money) until about 4 AM, then headed home when they did. We had both done this many times in the past, and she knew exactly where I was and who I was with, so I felt quite secure as I quietly unlocked the door to our home and tiptoed in to avoid waking her.
Well, it turned out that, unbeknownst to me, she and a friend had been talking earlier in the evening, and the friend had indicated that her husband never stayed out past 1 AM, and the friend was very proud of that. So on that particular evening I caused my wife to lose face by not coming home with her at 1 AM. I had caused her great shame in the eyes of her friend (how the friend knew I had stayed out late was never explained) and this was no small loss of face, if you can judge by the near bloodletting I suffered for my crime. And yet, the next time I stayed out late, in the same circumstances except for the intervening friend, all was well. Go figure!
The good news is that unlike Western Women, who will make you pay for days (or years) for your crimes, Chinese women tend to let you off as soon as you've appropriately groveled (this must take place in your home, which is actually her domain, not yours) for an hour or two, and you've told her your sorry, and lastly, you've bought her a gift (do not forget about the ever important relationship saving gift). But if you want to get off without dismemberment, do not act as if you don't understand what you did wrong (even though you inevitably do not understand). Suck it up, admit your guilt, and promise never to do it again, even if you have no idea of what exactly it is that you will not do again, and life will be back to normal in short order.
And the really good news is that this "steel rod swathed in flowers", when you haven't just caused her to lose face, is like your own private bodyguard. Your little Chinese woman will be the greatest ally you could ever hope for. She will kill for you at the slightest provocation to your face - unless her Mother is the source of the threat to your dignity, in which case you probably just committed unfathomable another "face" crime yourself.
There, have you got it all figured out? No? Don't worry, Chinese women can be as frustrating as trying to figure the stock market, but it's their very unpredictability that is one of their greatest charms. I wouldn't spend the rest of my life with anybody else.
http://ezinearticles.com/?Never-Marry-A-Chinese-Woman&id=948210 (http://ezinearticles.com/?Never-Marry-A-Chinese-Woman&id=948210)
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It's funny until yesterday I was being made to pay by silence and looks, until I said I was sorry and would not do it again.. :o What was my 'Crime', in China mobile 3 days ago, this girl had lovely looking long hair, I tugged it gently for a giggle, she laughed, I laughed, and then the bloodletting began... :o :o
Oh and Ted I always read the paper back cover fiorst, it's where the sports section is in ours... ;D ;D
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Ha Ha , Rob been there done that , but it was one of Sujuan's girlfriends out here who I happened to comment on , how pretty she was , I was in the pooh for a couple of hours till she finally realised I was just being complimentary about her friend , so now I am very careful and keep my trap shut , look , must not comment and no no touch he he , regards Robert and Sujuan .
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ok Rob you got our curiosity peaked what do you mean by bloodletting who did that??????
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Rob, when it comes to other women your guard must be up all of the time. Peggy has introduced me to friends and I say hi and shake their hand. Otherwise I sit there and let them talk and only speak back when they try to talk to me. When Peggy asks me about her I only say, "She seems like a nice person." I never comment on their looks or act like I didn't notice. But believe me I notice, just keep it to myself.
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If she was a Buddhist touching her hair is a big no no.
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im pretty thankful my wife isnt insecure enough to always question me when i talk to women. but alwys talking to
them and taking pics for the web site i guess helps me with that. in fact sometimes when i leave the house she tells
me " tell your girlfreind i said hi but im the one who really loves you" her sense of humor is as bad as mine sometimes
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Bloodletting = looks, grimaces, unspoken words in your ears (haha) you can just tell by the looks you receive after the 'Crime'...She nearly had a hissyfit, later that night, she said that I had not shown her respect by doing that...
Hehe I wasn't flirting, I was merely touching her hair to see if it was real !!! ;D ;D ;D
She tells me everyday, "I won't limit you, who you speak to!!!" But if you know whats good for you, you do as Shaun says, just say hi, and speak when spoken too... ;D ;D
Definetely no touche touche...hahaha
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Alright I understand now -why I was directed to this forum (Thanks Crystal Tao!!)
Bloodletting = looks, grimaces, unspoken words in your ears (haha) you can just tell by the looks you receive after the 'Crime'...She nearly had a hissyfit, later that night, she said that I had not shown her respect by doing that...
I had me a blood-letting while in Feng Huang and I didn't even know it-My crime was letting a Chinese girl who walked by and said "Hello" take my picture while I gave the peace sign. I experienced the looks,grimaces, and the unspoken words along with a few spoken ones.
Those looks are cold and the silence is colder!!
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Oh I am not without my wounds. My last few days in China on my second trip Peggy's best friend called me to her cell phone to talk with a woman who has a fiance in the US. I asked Peggy if she understood what I was getting ready to do and she said yes it was OK. Bull!!!! Don't you ever believe it.
I talked with is woman in front of Peggy and her two friends. Her English was very good. She was wanting to know about the Visa process and taking English lessons. Then she want her fiance to be able to speak with me. He lives in West Virginia. I gave her my phone number. Bad idea. I handed the telephone back to Peggy's best friend and the four of us continued talking for a little while longer. Everything seemed fine. But as soon as Peggy's friends left it hit the fan. I tried talking logic to her. Forget that. Her English didn't stretch that far. I've been back 2 months and not one call from that woman's fiance. I really didn't think he would after all he is from West Virginia and they haven't learned to speak proper English yet. Willy don't even start.
After all I didn't really realize that by giving the woman my phone number that she would call me and convince me to leave Peggy and marry her and her two small children who were making all kinds of noise in the background. Then I would bring her and her children to America to live with me in bliss and all of this having never even laid eyes on the woman. How dare me. I'm such a cad.
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well i must say we all will have our issues with our ladies. i know i do. but again i am
THANKFUL she doesnt have that PETTY JEALOUSLY attitude. thats just a formula for
a total unhappy relationship.
whatever you need to do you need to nip that as soon as you can anyway you can
i dont have a solution for it maybe someone else can add insight for this type of
problem it usually just keeps esculating
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You are right Ted in my instance it was just that -petty jealously- I was just (in my mind) being polite. The girl seen that I was American and said Hello and I responded with Ni Hao and flashed the peace sign- In Ping's mind she saw a threat-she saw somebody trying to come between us.
I always wondered why she insisted that we walk everywhere we went( taxi's were cheap-I had money) It wasn't until I arrived home that I realized, she was showing me off -that she was proud to be seen with me.
I don't know if this is the solution or not, but I have tried to start to see things through her eyes and hope by building her self confidence up, she will soon realize that I am not going anywhere
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James , most of the ladies except the very young have been subjected to by their ex's that the grass is greener over the other side of the fence , the fact that they are keen to build up a relationship with us along with the fact that there are another 10,000+ ladies in any 1 city also eligble to date makes them very protective of their man , but all is good , we whities learn quick , regards Robert and Sujuan .
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James building their self esteam is the key issue. Just to say you will not put up with it only drives it deeper and eventually it will display itself again but in a much worse fashion. You are on the right track. That has been and is what I am doing. After a little over 5 months I can see a difference but it does not go away overnight. You'll need to be consistent in what you do.
In my case with the phone issue all I can do is assure her that I am there with her and nothing will change that from my point of view. The no looking at other women is important because you are right about the fact that they are showing you off.
When her friends tell her that you are a good man that you didn't check them out you are beginning to hit home runs with your sweetheart.
Shaun
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I found another interesting post:
Why the Chinese don’t say ”I love you”
Yan Wenhua, professor of psychology at Shanghai’s East China Normal University, says part of the answer lies in the difference between ‘high context’ and ‘low context’ cultures.
High context cultures (for example, Chinese and other East Asian cultures), have a strong sense of tradition and history, and change little over time; while low context cultures (for example, American culture) change dramatically from one generation to the next.
People from high context cultures don’t say things clearly or specifically, but instead derive meaning from the context – what you might call ‘reading between the lines.’ In low context cultures, people generally say what they mean.
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“Chinese culture is like this,” says Prof. Yan. “I tell you everything around the center. So you must know what I mean. From all the information I give you, you should know; you cannot miss it.’”
In the high context Chinese culture, actions speak louder than words, especially when it comes to love.
“To the Chinese mind, if I do all these things for you, then you should know I love you,” explains Prof. Yan.
Prof. Yan says modern Chinese are more likely to say ‘I love you’ in English or other foreign languages than they would in their mother tongue.
“If Chinese say ‘I love you’ in English, it’s like touching someone’s arm who is wearing a coat. If they say it in Chinese it’s like touching the skin, it’s very sensitive. ‘Wo ai ni’ is very specific. It means responsibility, commitment, loyalty, if you say it.”
“In Chinese people’s eyes, if I say ‘I love you’ too often, that is, use a high context way to say it, then maybe you don’t really love me because you say it so much,” says Prof. Yan.
According to Prof. Yan, Chinese culture has devised other ways to express adult love. “Instead of saying ‘Wo ai ni,’ Chinese people are more likely to express the same meaning in a different way. They might say, ‘If I have a next life, then I would like to be your husband or wife.’”
“We Chinese also have a saying: ‘Xin you ling xi yi dian tong,’ which means we have common points beyond language. Even if we don’t speak, you can sense what I sense; you can feel what I feel.”
About face
The other part of the reason why Chinese people don’t say “Wo ai ni” lies in the concept of ‘face.’
“Chinese people don’t want to lose face or let others lose face,” says Prof. Yan. “If I say, ‘I love you,’ and it isn’t reciprocated then that’s a loss of face. So Chinese people use subtler ways to express their love in order to save face.”
James Farrer, Associate Professor of Sociology at Tokyo’s Sophia University, and author of 2002’s Opening Up: Youth Sex Culture and Market Reform in Shanghai, agrees with the saving-face hypothesis.
“George Simmel [the 18th-century German sociologist], said Eros is always about revealing and hiding, revealing and hiding,” says Prof. Farrer. “In any culture there’s this element of showing something and keeping something back. It’s a way of self-protection.”
“In Chinese culture, to say ‘I love you’ is too touchy, too creepy; it opens one up too much. So people find other ways rather than say it directly,” adds Prof. Farrer.
“In Shanghainese, it’s ‘Wo huan xi nong’ (I like you), or in Mandarin ‘Wo xihuan ni.’ The Japanese say ‘Suki de’ (I like you). ‘Like’ is a way of expressing affection; it’s playful, not so serious.”
Why so serious?
Sharon Lui, a marriage and family therapist at Community Center Shanghai, says not saying ‘I love you’ can sometimes cause problems in Chinese relationships.
“I have one case where the husband never said ‘I love you’ until his wife said ‘I want to leave you,’” says Liu, who counsels both Western and Chinese couples with rocky marriages.
“‘Wo ai ni’ is really difficult for Chinese to say,” says Liu, “because essentially the phrase means a solid commitment.”
“In the Chinese culture we don’t really have ‘casual dating.’ We’re either boyfriend and girlfriend, or just friends. We don’t have this Western dating concept where two people go out on a date that doesn’t really mean anything.”
Liu says Chinese also look at love, or passionate, intimate relationships in a much more functional way than Westerners.
“Chinese get married because they need to have children, or because of societal or parental pressure. They ‘fall in love’ because it’s the social norm. It’s more functional then feeling oriented.”
But times are changing. “The younger generation are more open to the dating concept, or what the Americans call ‘seeing each other,’” says Liu. “But in the last generation they don’t have that. Saying ‘I love you’ is pretty much like saying ‘I want to marry you.’”
http://guangzhou.urbanatomy.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=429:why-the-chinese-dont-say-qi-love-youq&catid=144:features&Itemid=12 (http://guangzhou.urbanatomy.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=429:why-the-chinese-dont-say-qi-love-youq&catid=144:features&Itemid=12)
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Interesting post Jan, thanks.
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Yes very good Jan. I agree and disagree with what was said. Peggy has never had a problem saying, "Wo ai ni.
Interesting read.
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Yes very good Jan. I agree and disagree with what was said. Peggy has never had a problem saying, "Wo ai ni.
Interesting read.
Yes but she is only saying it to you! solid commitment- Lucky Man-Keep up the good work!!!
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that was a very interesting article to say the least. but one thing we must never lose site of
trying to figure a woman out is virtually impossible and when you throw in a few thousand years
of culture, well your pretty much finished in trying to figure her out. just be KIND,GENEROUS,LOVING
and that will keep you in good shape and out of the dog house.
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This one is quite long and really interesting:
What are Chinese Girls Really Looking for in a Husband?
Empirical Research
http://middlekingdomlife.com/guide/dating-marital-preferences-chinese-women.htm (http://middlekingdomlife.com/guide/dating-marital-preferences-chinese-women.htm)
And this website seems like really good as well. So I'm going to read more from there.
From another artice, the same webpage
if a Chinese girl agrees to go out with a man on what we would call a first date, she is formally acknowledging this man as a viable candidate for marriage. If she agrees to a second date, then she is consenting to the distinct possibility of marriage. A third date for a traditional Chinese girl will commonly be perceived as indicating mutual intentions of marriage in the foreseeable future. Western men need to be aware at all times that dating and courtship in China are really this rapid and simplistically linear.
http://middlekingdomlife.com/guide/dating-etiquette-sex-relationships-china.htm (http://middlekingdomlife.com/guide/dating-etiquette-sex-relationships-china.htm)
A sure-fire way to confirm that the girl is quite serious about you is if you learn that she has spoken to her mother about you. As a rule, girls will not discuss any man they are seeing (not even with their girlfriends) unless they have decided that this is the person they want to be with. Related, if the girl invites you to meet her family, this is symbolically equivalent to a formal announcement of engagement in the West. It would be best not to agree to meet her family unless you have marriage in mind.
If the girl explicitly tells you that she "really likes" (wǒ hěn xǐhuan nǐ), "loves" (wǒ ài nǐ), or "misses" you (wǒ xiǎng nǐ), you need to keep in mind that these words have a far greater and significant meaning in China than they do in the West. When a Chinese girl expresses these sentiments to you or displays any type of physical affection at all, it typically means that she has already "chosen" you as a future spouse.
In China, meeting the girl's parents is tantamount to an announcement of engagement in the West. Unless you are seriously considering marriage to this girl, do NOT agree to meet her parents.
Hmm
By all means I don't take all of this for granted. But it gives quite good guidelines.
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Thank you Jan , your Article's kept me and my wife up till after midnight looking them over and talking about them in a very detailed fashion . Before going to sleep .. I told my Wife that " I Like you " very much . hahaha
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Arnold, I think your wife is very appreciative that you can finally say that you like her. ;D You've come a long way. 8)
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Arnold, I think your wife is very appreciative that you can finally say that you like her. ;D You've come a long way. 8)
Yeah , took me almost two and a half year's to get the nerve to say that . :-[
want to start out SLOW and work my way to " I love you " maybe by 2020 ???
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But Arnold...... I remember pictures of the two of you playing Tennnis. Didn't you keep score? Because if you did, then you would have already used the "L" word ::)
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But Arnold...... I remember pictures of the two of you playing Tennnis. Didn't you keep score? Because if you did, then you would have already used the "L" word ::)
NO NO , in Tennis we don't keep score and in Badminton it was a Tie . The only time I used the " L " word .. was when I was lost for words . Chinese words that is .
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Hmm my girl is now writing to me "Wǒ xǐhuān nǐ" "I like you".
When a Chinese girl expresses these sentiments to you or displays any type of physical affection at all, it typically means that she has already "chosen" you as a future spouse.
Hmm. I think things are going good. Now just to see her on December. And see how things will go when us two are in person.
But until that I will try to keep looking for some articles like these I have already posted. For myself and for us all. To get further on my quest for understanding Chinese women better.
Oh a side note to those that can understand pinyin. In my Chinese study book ther was this funny saying: “Māma mà mă ma?” . Who can solve the mystery what does that say ;D?
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Jan , Sujuan says that Mama is Mother , 2nd one is to speak harshly and fast at someone , 3 rd one is a horse and the 4 th is " end of questioning sentence before ? , 5 th is what ! , so there are many meanings to this word ha ha , regards Sujuan and Robert .
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It should be something along the lines "Is mother cussing at the horse?"
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mother is cussing at the horse now thats a sentence to learn that
comes up often in conversation :o :o
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mother is cussing at the horse now thats a sentence to learn that
comes up often in conversation :o :o
I wanted to write something here but I am still laughing to hard and can't remember what it was.
Some little Chinese woman in down town Beijing cussing at a 2 ton horse.
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:o lol
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Haha I found this by accident...
Whoever knows Chinese ;D will know what these words mean!
liǎng zhī lǎohǔ, liǎng zhī lǎohǔ
pǎo dé kuài, pǎo dé kuài
yī zhī méiyǒu ěrduo, yī zhī méiyǒu wěiba
zhēn qíguài, zhēn qíguài
I had some fun trying to learn this haha.
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hehe, the 2 tigers running fast, one without tail and one without ears and how strange that is?
If im not mistaken thats an old song often used in learning non natives to speak Chinese.
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I have a question for some of the members that have much more experience and understanding about Chinese women. Does the family really take it bad when another family loses a very good job? I don't understand all of the circumstances yet but I am thinking gee this really isn't such a big deal but Peggy really thinks it is. I have no clew about their tradition or culture in this area.
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It's usually a huge deal.The more prestigious your job the more face you have.The better the job the more influence you have.For a example I will list some jobs.The worst jobs first.
# 1 panhandler
#2 trash man street sweeper,
#3 domestic servant
# 4 factory worker/ restaurant worker.
# 5 store clerk
#6 teacher
#7 Office manager
# 8 government worker lower management
# 9 doctors lawyers
# 10 business owner
# 11 cop
# 12 company owner
# 13 bigwig in government. City leader,Distric leader,Province leader,
The farmer's are about a half step higher in the social ladder.Above the trash man.The people who supply food to the restaurants.Are in the same place as the farmer.The social order can also be broken down by where the person comes from.By city,or province.If you had a job as say a cop.And you got fired.And took a job as a store clerk.You have lost all your face.Your family will be really mad at you.
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I just wanted to thank you all for such an enlightening topic - i have really learnt a lot here - thanks especially when i am thinking of marrying a lovely chinese lady - keep up the great work - i still have a lot of reading to do
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I just wanted to thank you all for such an enlightening topic - i have really learnt a lot here - thanks especially when i am thinking of marrying a lovely chinese lady - keep up the great work - i still have a lot of reading to do
I think that after the years we, on this forum, have collectively put into studying Chinese Woman I think the conclusion would be that we will NEVER understand them completely.
Thank goodness for that I say.
Willy
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I just wanted to thank you all for such an enlightening topic - i have really learnt a lot here - thanks especially when i am thinking of marrying a lovely chinese lady - keep up the great work - i still have a lot of reading to do
Here is Volume 1, this should keep you busy for awhile! ;)
(http://anthonycolpo.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Understanding-women.jpg)