China Romance
General Discussion and Useful Links => The Campfire => Topic started by: Martin on May 14, 2009, 04:46:37 pm
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Guys, if you are interested in signing this letter, please hit reply, and add your name & partial CHNlove profile ID #. Thank you.
Martin
Dear CHNlove ( Manager, Customer Care Dept. ) :
My name is Martin de Groot, and I am a member of Chnlove, profile # CM***798. I just came back from China where I married a lovely lady that I found on ChnLove. As you may or may not be aware, I am also the creator and administrator of another online community. This community is made up exclusively of male members of Chnlove. The purpose of this group is to support each other in our pursuit for a life partner. We have taken the example of your forums, and customized it to a more personal level. Currently, we have over 100 members who correspond with each other.
Lately, there have been some major concerns over the conduct of some of the agencies in China that work in cooperation with Chnlove. There have been multiple complaints about agencies not acting in good faith. More specifically, these agencies employ translators who write fictitious letters on behalf of their lady clients. One of our member received and replied to 60 EMFs before visiting the lady in China. Once he arrived there, only then was he aware of this situation. The lady, in question, didn't know of his existence. Two other members went through the same situation. If you want specific names and the agencies in question, I will gladly provide this information.
Our members wish to co-operate with ChnLove to ensure that ALL agencies abide by your rules. We understand that you have no control over the business conduct of these individual agencies. However, if no action is taken on behalf of ChnLove to police these fraudulent activities & to punish those agencies, we have no choice but to make this information public on our forum and to encourage our members to BOYCOTT using those agencies in question. We're circulating this letter to all of our members, and allow them to put their names on this letter in lieu of a signature, to show their support of this situation.
Sincerely,
Martin DeGroot
China Love Forum, Administrator
Petition Signatures :
Martin DeGroot, # CM***798
Chong Hum, # CM***147
Neil Pridgeon, # CM***322
Victor Hills, # CM***858
Robert O'Donnell # CM***276
Norb Smith # CM***345
Paul Todd # CM***536
Vincent Grittani # CM***887
Fred Roseman # CM***602
Shane McDonald # CM***368
Kenny Krall # CM***371
James L. Burk # CM***215
Ronald Van Der Zee # CM***185
Jason Heidenreich # CM***425
Scott Meldrum, # CM***544
Maxx Weddle # CM***695
RC Campbell # CM***236
Mike O'Brien #CM***312
Michael Maines # CM***061
Arnold E. Dusch # CM***550
Robert Bert # CM***293
Peter Kristiansson # CM***958
Carl Schick, # CM***534
Michael P. Seal # CM***121
Alex Viac # CM***322
David Quincy # CM***140
David Paterson CM***716
Robert Snellgrove # CM***167
Stuart barlow #CM***335
Lawrence ( Skip ) Cook # CM**9655
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EVERYONE, when you reply you can delete what's on the window (quote) and just put your info in. That way it's not putting the whole letter in over and over.
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From: Flora Tsui (Customer Care)
To: Martin deGroot
Date: 29 May, 2009 GMT
Att.: Chnlove_img.jpg (54.12k)
Dear Martin,
How are you? Thanks for sharing your concern with us. We appreciate your attention and support to Chnlove, herein please allow us to wish you, as well as all the members in your Facebook community a happy Dragon Boat Festival, which I suppose your wife might have given your some information about it. We are sending you a picture of Zongzi, some kind of typical food we eat during the festival. Hope you will all enjoy it with your ladies in near future. :-)
We are glad to hear that you have found your ideal mate in Chnlove, hope you will embark a wonderful future together. At the same time, we are very surprised to hear about our members' experience with the agencies. We appreciate your notification on this matter, and we understand your attitude towards the agencies' dishonest behavior. To ensure all the agencies abide by our rules and improve their service level has always been our goal. About the case your mentioned, we will forward to our Upper Management as first priority after the Dragon Boat holiday.
Again, we thank you for telling us the information you obtained. As a communication platform, we cooperate with the agencies that provide direct services to our ladies and gentlemen members. We have serious policies and regulations the agencies must follow to deal with the ladies' profiles, Admiration Letter, Cupid Note and EMF mails. However, since the agencies are independent companies, we cannot always exclude some individual agency or translator acting against our policy and causing harm to our gentlemen members. But once it is verified and convinced, we will adopt serious measures to make sure they receive their punishments. As the saying goes, Perfect may not exist, but better does. The feedback and complain from our clients can always push us to improve our service to a higher level.
Chnlove welcomes our members to evaluate our agencies' services. At the same time, we encourage our clients to make their suggestion for better use of the service. We are here, with respectful attention to listen to your advice on how to ensure that all the agencies abide by our rules. We will forward your suggestion to our Upper Management for thorough evaluation and keep you informed of the updates.
On the other hand, you may notice that recently we have adopted a series of measures to invite our clients to give pressure to the agencies fro all-around improvement of their services, including EMF mail Satisfactory Rate, Agency Feedback Rating Statistics. There are many gentlemen who have rated their satisfactory with the agencies, and as you can see, most of them are Excellent and Good. This Statistics will wash out the agencies that are not doing a good job in providing honest and satisfied service to our client. And we believe that it can help us to get rid of some dishonest agencies finally.
http://www.chnlove.com/agency/feedback_stat.php
We pay great attention to the case that you mentioned, please let us have the names, the agency's ID, the lady's member ID, and our gentleman's member ID, we will talk to our Intendance Dept and ask them to look into the case immediately. If necessary, we will also send an email to the gentlemen directly and provide them more assistance.
Once and again, thanks for your (for all the listed names and kindness) time and attention on this matter. We firmly believe that with the support from many more honest and responsible customers like you, and with our determination and efforts to address any complaints from our members, Chnlove will become a respected company with high accountability. Though we understand it might not happen over night, we will put all our strength to attain this goal.
If you have further question or concern, please feel free to contact us, we are always there for our distinguished client.
Kind regards,
Flora Tsui
Chnlove Customer Care
This is the letter I got from our letter to them.
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stroke stroke stroke
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Funny thing...after just re-reading the reply, she mentioned "herein please allow us to wish you, as well as all the members in your Facebook community a happy Dragon Boat Festival". Nowhere in the letter did we mention facebook!
So obviously, they are somewhat aware of us.
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OK...so what is the next step? Do we get those that were reflected in the original letter to send a letter to Customer Care, or do we invite Customer Care to read a few specific threads? What is the best course of action at this point?
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Martin , why not give Flora the choice of which way her management would like to handle it , and by the way Flora is a slippery name over here , it is a Margarine , haha , regards Robert .
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Bruce MacGregor CM CM***637
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I think it is interesting Customer Service is willing to let the bad agencies "wash out" through member feedback and diminished participation. Obviously the only way to get the feedback is for someone to get their wallet "rung out" in the process. Nothing in the letter about restitution for a really bad experience? The compassion of the response brings tears to my eyes. If I responded to my clients' complaints like this, I wouldn't have any.
Skip
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You think this may be the reason Proteus shows up? lol Hey at least we got their attention.
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I think that we, chnlove.info -- as a brotherhood got 3 things from this.........
1. The subject was brought to their attention, and they know we will not let it drop without a fight.....
2. A person from their organizaton talking to us, even if he is 'under orders' not to say too much, which I for one think could be the case.....
3 The brotherhood standing firm shoulder to shoulder together, as in one voice, throughout history, one voice has very often triumphed......
With that in mind, let's see what else is achievable, but do it one step (case) at a time....:)
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OK...so who all went to China to see the girl they were writing to...only to find out they were writing to a translator...I want cases of people that know this for certain, because they went there. I do not want speculation. My memory is not good enough to remember who it was. Also, let me know how many letters were passed back and forth.
Or, write directly to chnlove Customer Care, and write a detailed letter...let them know you are writing in response to the letter that was sent to them by me. Let them know them that you will be posting your letter in our forum for all to read, and that any reply will be told to all the brotherhood. We have their attention...lets keep up the pressure. If we can get these issues straightened out, chnlove will be a better company for it, and we will see less and less of this garbage.
Also, make sure to mention if you believe your lady is being bribed or blackmailed to lie for the agency.
Good luck.
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Martin,
In my case I am not certain if the agency is also an agency for Chnlove (see my post "My trip to Fushun"). Can we generate a list of all their agencies (without going through all the profiles)?
Toon.
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If a agency or a translator of that agency was doing wrong, there is no need for a list of agencies. Each individual that had their trouble can put the agency name in. They will need ALL INFO.
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But we can't complain to Chnlove if the marriage agency has no affiliation with Chnlove. That was my point, need to know first.
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Spruik...if you joined through the other site, I would say that this doesn't cover your situation. Have you used Chnlove at all? I am just curious if you are having better luck here.
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In my opinion, if that agency is affiliated with Chnlove, they should be made aware of it. People who are that crooked will not care and are likely to do the same to a member of Chnlove.
I am communiating with 2 ladies through Chnlove that went off EMF after the first letter (don't tell...), but blocked 5 others as I was being bombarded with short follow-ups the next day or the following day (without me having a reasonable opportunity to respond) costing real money and was really p!ssing me off.
I only joined Chnlove recently.
Toon.
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Hi Martin,
I am writing a detailed complaint letter to Chnlove when I return to England regarding my experiences with the CLB agency. I am waiting till I get back just in case the agency kills me in my hotel bed. Paranoid, moi?
I will be asking for 51 EMFs back and referring to your letter. Any suggestions as to how I word my response?
Alex
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Bruce MacGregor CM CM***637
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Hi Martin,
I am writing a detailed complaint letter to Chnlove when I return to England regarding my experiences with the CLB agency. I am waiting till I get back just in case the agency kills me in my hotel bed. Paranoid, moi?
I will be asking for 51 EMFs back and referring to your letter. Any suggestions as to how I word my response?
Alex
I was hoping that Alex would have a good experience with CLB Agency in Changsha, China. I assume that Alex did not like the CLB agency. I still get admirers letters from ladies at the CLB agency. I just ignored the ladies from the CLB agency.
Fred
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Hi Fred,
check out my sorry but ultimately happier tale in the 'Your Trip to China' section under 'Long distance journey between man and woman'
Alex
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I would do exactly as you said...write a detailed letter, describing everything. Make sure they are aware that we all know about this letter. There will be no hiding behind the cloak of secrecy for them. They had the upper hand before, because we all acted as individuals. Now we speak with one voice.
Remember, we are not against Chnlove. We are hopefully making them a better service, so that the men that follow us, do not have to deal with this kind of crap.
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N/A
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Good letter Alex. Some things I would have left out? but it's good. Something like "Thank you for a speedy resolution of this matter." well they haven't done crap yet? so I would have held this sentence off till later. But....
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N/A
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I do not believe this it is a form letter i got same one different little things but almost the same just which agency is involved is changed a few different changes but it looks close enough
From: Sherry Chu (Customer Care)
To: Bruce Macgregor
Date: 05 May, 2009 GMT
Dear Bruce,
Ni Hao! This is Sherry from Chnlove customer care. Thanks for sharing your concern with us. I can understand your feelings currently. I'm very grateful that you could share your thoughts with us, so we can have the chance to address your concern and provide any possible assistance to you.
Bruce, I fully understood your concern. I believe that you are very serious in finding your true love on our site, such attitude is greatly appreciated and admired by us. And I truly hope that we could be of help to you. Concerning your communication with the lady ********* (P356***), I have soon forwarded your case to our Intendance Dept.. They attached great attention to your case and is now looking into the matter with the related agency and the lady. Thanks for your kind patience in advance.
Bruce, Chnlove has been aiming at building a safe platform for serious communication between sincere clients. As you know, Chnlove is independent from each local agency as individual companies. We pay the agency who provides EMF messages translation and delivery services to the Chinese ladies, thus enable free translation as well as professional consultation service to the ladies, making it easier for communication between people of different languages and cultures. Though Chnlove is not involved in the internal business of each agency, we have strict policies and regulations that each agency should As-Is deliver the EMF mails and offer quality service to help both male and female members communicate smoothly.
While, we notice that sometimes there are some unexpected situations happened during the course of communication, such as the feelings and personal situation of both the gentlemen and the ladies. That's why we advise our gentlemen clients to go for a relationship based on mutual trust and understanding. With the joint efforts by the two sides, a promising relationship can possibly bloom and fruit. Chnlove is unremittingly making great efforts in providing more guidelines and useful tips for gentlemen to communicate with Chinese ladies, such as online safety tips. You are warmly advised to take a look at these information, hopefully it will be helpful for you.
Thanks again for your support to our customer care. We welcome you to share your comment or feedback with us or any questions you concern about, we will follow up to your kind satisfaction.
Kind regards,
Sherry Chu
Chnlove Customer Care
stick with it took 10 days for my return of 24
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OH NO! NOT BALD BABIES!
Hi guys,
I hope you still have a sense of humour. I am rapidly losing mine. I got this reply from Chnlove today, together with a lovely letter from the boss of P216, which I include as an attachment.
From: Flora Tsui (Customer Care)
To: Alex Viac
Date: 03 Jun, 2009 GMT
Att.: Chnlove_img.jpg (153.15k)
Dear Alex,
Thanks for your kind response and further explanation of your concern. You are a very thoughtful gentleman. We fully understand your feeling at this moment.
Further to our last email, please be informed that our Intendance Dept has contacted the agency, P216 about your enquiry. The boss of the agency, Qiu Qinghuang has looked into this matter immediately and reported the situation. Attached is his explanation on this case. Please have a look.
At the same time, our Intendance Dept has made a call to the lady, P216365 - Carol Lu directly about your concern. Following is her personal response. Please have a look.
"P216365 - Carol Lu told us that she knew CM738332 - Alex Viac. She usually read and replied the gentleman's letters by telephone, email and QQ. She was fully aware of their communication through Chnlove. Usually she would give her letters to the translator, and the translator will translate and send them out. She met the gentleman days ago and has very good impression and nice feeling for him. However, she was still concern about the gentleman's hair. She did not show his photos to her families during their communication. It was until they met in person she decided to give the photos to her families, but all of them against strongly. She took her sister to meet the gentleman. Unfortunately, her sister does not agree still after the meeting. So, she had no choice but reconsider their relationship."
Alex, hope the above info could help to ease your concern. To further investigate the agency's service quality, our Intendance Dept has randomly selected a few ladies from the agency and made a telephone survey. So far, the investigation shows that the agency has followed Chnlove's policy to translate and deliver the EMF mails, and the ladies are happy with their service.
Alex, you are a very sincere gentleman, we truly hope that you will find your ideal mate in our site. As you know, communication is very important for the development of a relationship. Our site offers a platform for gentlemen to meet real ladies they selected, but it's communication that can help to look into the real heart of a lady. We always advise our gentlemen clients to go for a relationship based on mutual trust and understanding. With the joint efforts by the two sides, a promising relationship can possibly bloom and fruit.
We notice that sometimes there may be unexpected circumstances happened during the course of communication, such as the feelings and changed situation of both the gentlemen and the ladies. Therefore, Chnlove is unremittingly making great efforts in providing more guidelines and useful tips for gentlemen to communicate with Chinese ladies, such as the online Safety Tips. You are warmly advised to take a look at the information. Hopefully it will be helpful for you.
Alex, you have been a member of our site for some time, we appreciate your time and support to our service in the past. And as your friend (if I'm that lucky), I truly hope I could be of help to you. Just now I have forwarded your case to our Billing Dept personally. Seeing that you are a very sincere gentleman, they agree to present you 6 credits as a special offer. It is my sincere wish these credits could be helpful to you and take you to find your ideal mate in our site.
Once again, thanks for your kind understanding and patience. Chnlove will put all the strength in attaining the acknowledgement and recognition from more and more clients. If you need our assistance, we are always here for you.
Kind regards,
Flora Tsui
Chnlove Customer Care
I really have no idea what to do next. Any suggestions would be gratefully received. I think I need to go shopping for wigs. Ha ha
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I don't know what to say about this? But trying to win her back? Even if you did? It might always be a factor.
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Hi,
you probably can't see the original letter from the agency, so I have written it here for your amusement.
'P216's explanation to your concern.
Hello Alex, I am the boss of P216 - Changsha Love Bridge Company. You can call me Mr. Qiu. I have read the message you sent to Chnlove and known about the situation from my translator. Herein please allow me to clarify your concern with more details.
Firstly be assured that all the EMF mails you excahanged with P216365 - Carol Lu was read and replied by the lady herself. Miss Lu usually replied your letter by email or telephone, our translator would translate it first before sending it out to you.
The day you arrived in Changsha, miss Lu had been waiting for almost three hours. She is a very traditional Chinese lady, so she did not stay late with you in the hotel. As we communicated with her about her response during your meeting, Miss Lu told us that she had introduced you and showed your picture to her families before you decided to meet. She is OK with your hair, but her families do not think so. They were afraid your future baby will have no much hair as well.
Miss Lu has been bothered by this question before the meeting, she was afraid losing you but could not against her families, so she was alittle absent-minded during the meeting and dared not look into your eyes as she felt guilty like she had betrayed you. Miss Lu told us that she did not know how to explain her situation. After the first day meeting, she had a second thought about your relationship. She decided to bring her sister to the meeting, as her sister is the youngest person in the family, and it must be easier to accept your look. If Miss Lu has her support, you can still continue your relationship. Unfortunately it did not work.
Miss Lu told us that she felt sorry about the result. She hopes to have your forgiveness. Hope that you can understand her.
Alex my translator told me that you are a very nice gentleman and she tried to introduce other lady for you. But you did not agree. We understood you have come a long way to meet Miss Lu. It is a pity the meeting did not work out. We truly hope everything goes well with you. If you need any assistance, please don't be hesitated to contact us, we will try our best to help you.
sincerely,
Qiu (Changsha Love Bridge)
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Dear Spruik,
Read my experiences in 'My Trip to China'. I walked away at the time. I do not want to engage with the lies of this agency. I just want my credits back, not just six of them, but all of them. But Chnlove are happy to take their word against mine. There are many contradictions and inconsistencies already, but I doubt whether I will get a fair hearing. The P216 agency are very clever at spinning a yarn and they will probably weasel out of any further responsibility.
At least members of this forum should be suitably forewarned about this agency, its translators and its boss.
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I have to say its really poor all it was down to lack of hair geez come on,what the hell has that got to do with anything,i read meny profiles and a good part of them say its the inner beauty you know the person them self is more inportent but dont seem that way.Alex when you sort your self a wig m8 give me a shout were you got it from becase im a bit thin on top too lol.
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The lack of hair thing is weird but I have heard other surprising things.
Ling , an intelligent girl who works as an accountant once asked me if it was true that in my country that most men have many women as wives?!! One of her colleagues on work told her this and she wondered if it might be true!!
Another time when we were watching a show I was taking pictures like everyone else of the performance but the Chinese girl beside me was clearly afraid i was going to rob her or worse, she kept looking at me and gripping her handbag tight, if I so much moved an inch in her direction she jumped..this despite the fact that I was obviously with with Ling!!
People have funny ideas no matter where you are , and in cultures so different that can easily get magnified to huge proportions. The hair thing, bizarre as it seems, may have a grain of truth in it, but probably only a grain.
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Hi Ronan,
the hair thing amuses me only because it shows the lengths this agency has gone to justify their underhand actions. There are so many contradictions to their story that it can't be true. More importantly I have the feeling I had when I was there, which I knew was dodgy and fishy. In theory my lack of hair could have been offensive and my (hopefully) future children may suffer from such an affliction, but a scam is a scam.
I would like to draw a line under this experience, because the overriding feeling I had from my trip to Changsha was so positive afterwards. I am in love with China now and who knows whether it would have happened like that if I hadn't started so traumatically. It was probably the best holiday of my life, because it was just a catalogue of unpredictable and unexpected joys and emotions. My bruised heart opened up to Changsha and its people and their exceptional kindness and humour unlocked parts of me I didn't know existed.
There's no point flogging the dead horse of pursuing the agency, they aren't worth my energy, so I will look forward to the time when I am with my true soulmate, who will be a lady in China.
Alex
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Hey Alex met an interesting lady from your favorite agency, but she tells me she wasnt one of the ones that hauled you to the KTV...........lol
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Alex, I read your posts from over there with huge admiration, you got a low blow but you took it like a man and ended up coming out the other side. I know a little how that feels like, we can either dwell in the past or move on and appreciate what we have, as you say , no point in flogging a dead horse!
I'm still hooked on China and will be returning there, maybe next time my whole trip over there story will be a happy one. Whatever happens I know the brothers here will be a shoulder to cry on or a hand to shake when things go well.
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Alex my signature tells you what I think of you.....;)
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I guess this is the best place to put this? I put a suggestion in on Chnlove.com In the Site suggestion topic. Giving the suggestion that there should be indicator, (an indicator on the woman's profile that she is taken? involved, spoken for, in the process?) Thing is, it showed up alright? In "Today's Chinese Women" instead of "Site Suggestions"? Strange?
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Hey Alex, you had me crapping my pants for a minute there, I'm also talking to a girl from Changsha so I hurriedly found her profile to see which agency she was from...........Phew P218, I wrote a huge letter last night (only my second as we talk via email too) and received a great response late this afternoon.
Hope it turns out good for you.
I'm also a bit of a baldy so I may ask the question sooner than later though she has a few photo's of me so I'm not hiding anything.
Luckily we are on exactly the same time frame as China, no 12hr gap.
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Well, guys after reading everything that has been written over the last few weeks it has become increasingly more difficult to trust even chnlove. If they were truly on OUR side they would fix the problem but all I see is Obama type posturing. I've been trying to write the one person I am interested in at P218 in Changsha but I have so many reservations now. Let's be honest. If you see people being ripped off by agencies over and over and over again and the group that aids you in going to the local agencies will not hold the local agencies accountable, then why should I throw good money in to a pit that, in all likelihood, will prove to take my money and not produce very much. The kicker is that to find out that I am being ripped of is that I have to spend a couple of thousand dollars to go there and find out. That just isn't in me.
The real problem for me is that I really do not want another American wife. I have met a lot of Asian women over the years. It is much more than their beauty that attracts me, their charm, care, femininity, and common sense appeals to me also. I am looking at CB right now because I can look at Asian women here in the US that are looking for men.
I don't know but I have a problem spending any more money with chnlove and I have 28 credits left.
Shaun
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and the group that aids you in going to the local agencies will not hold the local agencies accountable, then why should I throw good money in to a pit that,
This is a fair argument, and not one that I see an answer to. I also would like to see chnlove do something about these agencies.
If you find your lady elsewhere, please keep us posted here, because there may be others that want to follow in your footsteps. Any information is good information.
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Shaun and Tom,
I am as sure as I can be that the P218 agency is a good one. I have been there and am in regular QQ contact with some of the translators. I am also writing to a fantastic lady there. Just hold on to the fact that this agency is good and you will be fine - you can focus on your relationship.
I had every reason to be suspicious after my experience with the other agency, and Chnlove haven't been at all effective in dealing with them. They just swallow everything the agency tells them. But don't be put off. Hold on to your trust. And read the posts on this site. If Chnlove doesn't help us, we have to do it.
take care
Alex
I don't know but I have a problem spending any more money with chnlove and I have 28 credits left.
Shaun
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Alex,
I am relatively sure that things might be OK at P218. I have not seen anything to the contrary. But because there are so many other agencies that we need to be careful of it causes doubt with the one you are with. It is kind of like taking a bite of an apple. If that first bite is bad experience tells me that the rest of the apple is bad. When we can hear about one bad agency and the emotional trauma the man goes through when he arrives in China only to find out he has been lied to and all chnlove does is to give him a few credits back and nothing to the offending agency then it makes me wonder if all of the agencies are bad.
They really do not understand about messing with a western mans emotions. I would hate for one man to get there and him go postal on them.
For me I find myself checking out my girl daily to see. I look everyday to see if she is refreshing her profile. I re-read her letters looking for inconsistencies mainly to see if the agent is writing them. Unfortunately I do not like what I am doing and do not feel is is good for me to begin to distrust her but the bad agencies have created an atmosphere like that. One thing is for sure is this it is not healthy for establishing a good relationship.
This site is doing a good thing by uniting us and becoming a force to be reckoned with as far as chnlove is concerned. One of my questions is does chnlove understand that? Will they do something significant about it? Or will they do what they have done so far which is to synmpaththise with you, tell you they understand, but there is really nothing they can or will do to the offending agency?
I mean really; is there any good reason why P216 is still a part of chnlove at this point? If I get a new admirer and I see they are from that agency I am done at that point. There is no point and it makes me wonder about P218 even though they have not given me any cause to suspect them.
Going over there and finding out would resolve a lot of issues but I cannot right now. But at the same time who wants to take the chance of throwing $3000.00 out the window?
Shaun
Nope, my mood hasn't changed yet, guess I'll go back to sleep. Maybe this will all pass.
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Shaun ,P218 is okay , I have been there , Peter has been there and Alex has also now been there , and have no complaints , find out who your translator is and also write short notes to them at the bottom of your emf's , send over photo's of you in normal life and ask for some in return [ when she next has one taken with her girlfriends or ? ] also set up a video cam session , again when it suits all parties , then you know she is real ,do not worry about profile refresh as agencies do this automatically with no lady input and generally will not hide profiles until lady is hooked , ring on finger , regards Robert .
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Shaun,
i see where are you coming from. I have gone through that. You are lucky. My lady is from one of the worst rated agencies related to chnlove. It took me about 3 months to have finally my first web meeting and her phone number.
But eventually the shady practice of the agencies have nothing to do with your lady. Yes it is true, they wont lose any oppurtunity to make some bucks more from you if they can. But trust your lady as long as she is trustworthy, and try to find a way to her. Dont rack your brain about refreshing of her profile.I asked my lady straight in our first web meeting and i saw her face while translating. She didnt even know about that. Sometimes you got to play their plays till you have your direct contact with her. From that moment you will see all will be different. As Arnold said somewhere in the forum dont go over if you are not sure at least 95% this thing will work out for you. The direct contact will be a must, if you dont like unpleasent surprise or afford it.
But if you love china and the culture dont give up. You will find someday your better half and you will see all that was more than worthy.
Maxx, Martin, Ed among others are the living proofs of that.
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from...........Phew P218,
Sorry you misunderstood but I meant/implied was "thank christ" not P216 ............Great P218, I don't have a problem with them.
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OK here is somthing I have been wondering about ever since we sent our letter to ChnLove, and what has been happening to some of us who have gone to china to meet our laides and then have everything blow up in thier faces, I dont know excactly where to put this so will let you Mods figure it out.
But it seems that ever since we sent in the letter, and those of us who signed it, it seems like maybe we are being boycotted by the agencies, since they have some idea thru maybe the main office that we are all part of this brotherhood, and that they are trying to discredit us with our findings and results, to make themselves look good, I have been thinking about this for the past couple of days, and dont really know how to write this up but its just something to think about, And then of course this coming from an ex-Wyoming Cowboy, that knows more about cattle, sheep and horses, then he does about most woment except the ones that are raised in big citys in America...........:fi_lone_ranger:
Here is some more that I have been thinking about also, but then of course maybe Protesus may have the answer for this also, but am wondering if maybe that ChnLove may have sent our letter out to all their satillite agencies to let them know about the brotherhood. think I will let tis lie and let you mods work on it and see if maybe we can come up with some conclusions that make some sense to all that is and has been going on, not only from our side but from the ladies that are involved also
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Vegas Boy ... Is this what the cattles, sheeps and horses are telling you during your nightly Wyoming chats in the fields ....... hahahahaha .... I think your conspiracy theory is off based. ChnLove knows that there's a problem with rogue agencies. More unhappy clients ( us ) means less $$$ for them. But these agencies pay a listing fee / % to ChnLove so money talks. We're secondary in importance to the agencies even though we're the one providing the main revenues. They still need us and our business IMHO.
Movie Credit Footnote : No cattles, sheeps or horses were harm in this postings.
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Im writing through 216 at the moment and everything seems normal, our letters are not dressed up with emotive words etc, I asked for e-mail address in my last letter so i could send pictures more easy, it was in the next letter. The translators name is Janey. I will pay close attention to details!
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Well King Chong, it was something I was ponderin about so thought might threow it out and let you look at it I know that the present lady I am corresponding with is very up front with things with me but at the moment hasnt volunteered her phone number, but says she will if things progress with us further, at least I thank you for your answer, and hope that ChnLove gets things done soon so that more of us dont get suckered in by the rougues, even tho we both know that some of the newbie will probably be, just like we have in the past, and sorry to hear about things with you, and no I am not looking in Wuhan anymore............lol
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Well guys,
Thanks for your responses. They did help. I was having a bad day all around yesterday. Today started the same way but has improved some. What I said is questions that I imagine knaw on us from time to time until we have the evidence that everything is real; then the feelings settle down. We all know these issues are real because some of the men on this site that have experienced it and shared it with us.
More than anything we need chnlove to step up to the plate and hold the agencies accountable. They may want to consider suspending them for a period. Or maybe the should establish, since they have good paying customers, a good set of parameters that are understood by all 4 parties represented. Let's say for example that by the 5th letter natural photos are exchanged and by 10th letter and reply that a webcam interview with translator is mandatory and that it should be set up by the agency without the man having to ask for it. Then every Xth letter and reply there is a mandatory webcam chat for X number of minutes.
Chnlove or the agency could put a button on the lady's reply where we can buy their handwritten letters for a fair fee that would be sent to our home address.
Chnlove could set up blocks of let's say 10 tickets of travel from a major city like NYC, Atlanta, Miami, Dallas, LA, London just to name a few for specific times lets say 10 days to a major city in China for a lower price. They could do this maybe 5 times a year and we could register for it. It could be on a first come first serve with payment in hand for the reservation. It would be the mans responsibility to get to the airport Chnlove choses and from the city they land to their lady's city. They might even be able to book the flights on either side for the men and make a little more money.
Ideas like these would help to build the trust between all parties involved. Maybe some of you have good ideas that could be mentioned here.
This may be something we need to talk about and approach Chnlove with.
What do you all think?
Again Thanks for putting up with my rants yesterday and having a few good suggestions,
Shaun
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Shaun That's all a really nice thought of organization. BUT when you think they can not control or keep straight what they have now? The rest would be a mess. When your stranded at the airport in between countries and you call there to find why the tickets are for the wrong flight you could hear... Awww Mr Shane, you are such a wonderful person. We at Chnlove will look into the reasons for this and remind you that we are not the same as agency. Please wait there until we correspond with all involved.
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True Vince, that never crossed my mind when I suggested it. But it might work IF chnlove does it on their level and does not let the local agencies participate in it.
My thought was that it might help develop more trust and rapport between 4 entities in this triangle.:icon_cheesygrin: :dodgy: Woops something doesn't add up here.4 entities is as I see it: man, woman, agency, chnlove. If anyone has a good idea they should tell us about it. Or am I opening up a can of worms?:icon_cheesygrin:
Plus everything is good between P218 and me. I didn't mean to insinuate that they were not to be trusted. Everything I read about them is good and I feel fortunate to have been there from the beginning. Sorry to say this but it always boils down to God watch over me. My rant was about the junk that is going on in some of the other agencies, plus not knowing for sure if everything is real, and having a horrible day yesterday. I should have applied the 24 hour rule here.
Shaun
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True Vince, that never crossed my mind when I suggested it. But it might work IF chnlove does it on their level and does not let the local agencies participate in it.
My thought was that it might help develop more trust and rapport between 4 entities in this triangle.:icon_cheesygrin: :dodgy: Woops something doesn't add up here.4 entities is as I see it: man, woman, agency, chnlove. If anyone has a good idea they should tell us about it. Or am I opening up a can of worms?:icon_cheesygrin:
Plus everything is good between P218 and me. I didn't mean to insinuate that they were not to be trusted. Everything I read about them is good and I feel fortunate to have been there from the beginning. Sorry to say this but it always boils down to God watch over me. My rant was about the junk that is going on in some of the other agencies, plus not knowing for sure if everything is real, and having a horrible day yesterday. I should have applied the 24 hour rule here.
Shaun
I am not sure four entities could exist in a triangle. Maybe a quadrangle?
Skip
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I seriously think some of you guys need to google "corruption China" The place is rife with it, & I can assure you Chnlove is no different, yes there will be some nice success stories & flowery replies to complaints but we are probably only 1% of their clients, do you honestly think they give a rats arse about you?..........."No" All they want is their cut of your EMF's which probably ranges around the 50% mark so the more agencies that make money for them the better & the more corrupt that agency is the more they make..........Simple
And for everyone who complains & leaves there will be another sucker to replace you so get real with yourselves, no direct contact after 5 exchange EMF's then it's byebye, they will soon wake up if everyone does this and unless the lady is an illiterate fool there are internet cafe's everywhere & I'm sure she can get someone to help set up an email account, there are translators on google that work just fine.
Have you ever heard of an agency in the States, Aus, Britain that charges the ladies literally months of wages to meet someone, "No" because these girls don't know any better.
Sorry for the rant but there are too many people wearing rose coloured glasses around here.
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Seems I have read these same words before?? EMF's? this is the nickel and dime of the business. When the complaint goes in and they have to refund the money from the "EMF" what profit did they make?
"Have you ever heard of an agency in the States, Aus, Britain that charges the ladies literally months of wages to meet someone" YES, do you want a list? How about the millionaires club where you have too put up $25 thou, just for an interview?
"too many people wearing rose coloured glasses around here" NO we are well aware of all of it. But we don't sit and bitch about it, we try to fix it. We support each other THAT'S WHAT WE DO HERE.
If you insist that the woman gives you direct contact after 5 EMF's? Pushing the fact that if they don't you will???? It's a very good possibility you end up with none. We're all real here we're not fooling ourselves. Forcing the issue makes anybody back away.
And then this..."unless the lady is an illiterate fool" they're not illiterate in their own language. So this criticism lacks good sense.
You say China is corrupt, the woman are fake, the agencies take your money? Why are you pursuing it then?
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Wow, touched a bit of a nerve there Vince, Yes China is corrupt & they will take your money, I'm not saying the ladies are corrupt I'm saying be aware that there is a lot of corruption in the Chinese business world, have you seen all the Chinese made Gucci etc stuff on eBay? (Have a look at http://www.alibaba.com/countrysearch/CN/China.html?src=google&albch=google&albcp=Search_GKW-AU-Asia-Pacific&albkw=manufacturers-china_Australia-search-product05_rq_no&albag=home_manufacturers-china_china_country-general&albmt=exact&albst=search&albom=AU_none_090120&s_kwcid=manufacturers%20china|3142675742 you can have anything made with any companies name you like stamped on it.) I've seen many guys bitten before but mostly with Filipino's & Thai's.......Take my cousin for example, he corresponded with a lady via snail mail (before the internet) for a long time, went there got swept off his feet & married her on the spot, waited about a year to get her here only to realize she had never used a washing machine, vacuum cleaner etc etc. Do you really want to have to teach a 40yo woman how to live a completely different life? if he walked into the room whilst she was dressing she would jump into a cupboard, it lasted 3 weeks before she sought a lawyer through Filipino friends she met & tried to take half his belongings, luckily she got nothing.
What I'm trying to get across is that if she is not capable of using a computer and comes form some out of the way farming village do you really need to be spending years changing the way she lives? I'd rather have someone who is at least smart enough to be computer literate which I have found.......all at the cost of 4 EMF's, I've had contact with 3 others for similar costs but decided not to pursue them.......so far I've used 13 EMF's in total.
Rose coloured glasses, Example - One guy gets stitched for 50 EMF's & they give him 6 back as a nice gesture to keep him going...Must have broken their bank.
YES, do you want a list? How about the millionaires club where you have too put up $25 thou, just for an interview? ............Seriously Vince, I'm talking about every day dating sites, it's usually the man who has to fork out the money, not the lady....And they don't charge ridiculous amounts to meet or to marry her either.
If you insist that the woman gives you direct contact after 5 EMF's? Pushing the fact that if they don't you will???? It's a very good possibility you end up with none. We're all real here we're not fooling ourselves. Forcing the issue makes anybody back away..........Too bad I'll move on to the next one if I need to, seriously there must be guys on here that have spent more on EMF's than a trip to China where they could have met someone themselves, I'm not here to destroy peoples hopes but I see a lot of naivety & I hope I can open a few eyes. If you are happy to correspond with someone at the cost of $20-$40 per week that you don't even really know exists, great, I hope for your sake it works but I am more of a realist and the old, Oh my computer is broken, my mother is ill, I don't have access to a computer won't wash with me, this is now a highly developed country, especially in the cities where the majority of these ladies live, I doubt too many are trapped in a sweatshop because they would not have the money to pay the exorbitant joining fees.
If I don't end up meeting someone then so be it, I honestly don't care because I'm not that desperate that I will fall in love with someone over the internet with whom I've never had any personal contact with. Having had 3 Japanese girlfriends in the past I've got a thing for Asians, even if I meet someone on here as a friend who can act as a guide whilst I'm on holiday that would be great, if I fall in love with her even better.
I wish everyone success & I hope everything works for you. I can see a ban coming on but I hope I've opened a few eyes before my post is deleted.
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Skip,
I know 4 sides = a quadrangle. I was using a play on words. When a person speaks of more than 2 when it comes to relationship they usually talk in terms of a triangle. Also it is appropriate because I think that chnlove and the agency is on the same side which would make it a triangle.
Shaun
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I wish everyone success & I hope everything works for you. I can see a ban coming on but I hope I've opened a few eyes before my post is deleted.
Why would we ban you? And why would we lock out the thread? Your pfishy friends are a little mistaken on why other posts were locked. And we don't ban for no reason. And unlike your friends over at pfishy, we don't flame each other here. Stay within that rule, and we will be fine.
We are not in denial over here that there are bad agencies. We know that statistically, some of the guys here are going to be scammed. This is a very unfortunate thing. But these guys have a dream, and they want to follow it. We are here to hopefully weed out those bad agencies, and in the even that the guy gets burned, to support him in any way we can.
If I don't end up meeting someone then so be it, I honestly don't care because I'm not that desperate that I will fall in love with someone over the internet with whom I've never had any personal contact with.
Who said that anyone here was desperate to fall in love online? I fell in love online...it was the first time I had ever gone this route. Was I desperate? Not at all! I wasn't actually looking for a wife...I was just bored, and surfing a site.
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Tiztom I not desperate for a wife, or girlfriend, partner or whatever else you want to call it. I can prove at anytime many women I am in contact with that are married, single whatever that I talk to just about everyday. They are old girlfriends and such. I'll put the cost of a trip to China and expenses that I can make a call and have female company by this afternoon in my bed. I'll also bet majority of all here can do the same. So don't assume we are desperate. We are choosy.
Your "cousin" married a girl that "only to realize she had never used a washing machine, vacuum cleaner" So who's fault is that? Hers? I have talked with many women from Chnlove and none were from a farming village. How would they afford it? That's the flop in your writing. Making that all these women are low life's? I don't know where you came to this conclusion but your dead wrong. Not one that I wrote to or read from others are.
My lady doesn't have a computer. So we talk on the phone. It's not an excuse, it's fact.
Why would I care that China produces Gucci bags? What does that have to do with Chnlove or the women?
Are you grouping the whole country into one type of group? So are you telling me the only people in the US are fat and rich?
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Tiztom, I was burned by one, have what we call many little sisters that I've meet there but we were not a good match but are still friends, and I am loved by my CHINESE wife.
No we are not foolish men or desperate men here, as Vince said many of us could have friends with benefits any time we wish, well I won't, but I could, now, maybe some of your friends have had bad experiences with some women or agencies and I can see why they would have bad feelings as maybe you have had, but don't lump all of China into one big pile of sh*t, thats not right just like saying all Americans, Britts or aussies are rich and players.
So sir, if you are saying that all Chinese are a bad or cheating race then I will take offence and we will have a problem, if you are not then I am sorry for this last statment.
In any case I will wish you luck and best wishes in your search.
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OK, I'm not saying they are all scammers but it is a way of life in a lot of the business community in Asia in general.
Yes it's great to have a dream but please be wary, I've been on Scambaiters for a few years & I just hate seeing people get ripped off, so I'm just trying to warn the not so wary that this "can" happen, by the sound of it most of the guys on here are pretty switched on but lets face it there are a lot of people out there that will believe anything they read, I'd just like them to be a bit cautious.
I certainly don't paint these people as being farmers from the country, I'd just be wary if one was a bit backward in coming forward & if they give off too many excuses to have no personal contact within a reasonable amount of time it may be time to start the alarm bells ringing.
Yes my cousin was a stupid idiot, he was all his life & you'd think he'd have learned by his two previous divorces but it happens all too many times, probably more here in Aus because of the demographics compared to the rest of the world.
Sorry but what is this "phishy" thing I have no phishy friends that I am aware of, I've been on Chnlove since the 30'th of last month, I have been on here for less than a week. I am emailing 3 different girls & have two of their phone numbers but I'm mainly sticking to one....all at the cost of 13 EMF's, so it can be done.
I guess I'm too cynical for a lot of you but I is who I is.
I figured the ban may come as I'm not a "brotherhood" type, to me it's a forum for discussing & putting forward your views which I have done & if it stops even one guy from being ripped off then I feel I've contributed something.
Peace love & all that stuff.
Tom.
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Wow, touched a bit of a nerve there Vince, Yes China is corrupt & they will take your money, I'm not saying the ladies are corrupt I'm saying be aware that there is a lot of corruption in the Chinese business world, have you seen all the Chinese made Gucci etc stuff on eBay? (Have a look at http://www.alibaba.com/countrysearch/CN/China.html?src=google&albch=google&albcp=Search_GKW-AU-Asia-Pacific&albkw=manufacturers-china_Australia-search-product05_rq_no&albag=home_manufacturers-china_china_country-general&albmt=exact&albst=search&albom=AU_none_090120&s_kwcid=manufacturers%20china|3142675742 you can have anything made with any companies name you like stamped on it.) I've seen many guys bitten before but mostly with Filipino's & Thai's.......Take my cousin for example, he corresponded with a lady via snail mail (before the internet) for a long time, went there got swept off his feet & married her on the spot, waited about a year to get her here only to realize she had never used a washing machine, vacuum cleaner etc etc. Do you really want to have to teach a 40yo woman how to live a completely different life? if he walked into the room whilst she was dressing she would jump into a cupboard, it lasted 3 weeks before she sought a lawyer through Filipino friends she met & tried to take half his belongings, luckily she got nothing.
What I'm trying to get across is that if she is not capable of using a computer and comes form some out of the way farming village do you really need to be spending years changing the way she lives? I'd rather have someone who is at least smart enough to be computer literate which I have found.......all at the cost of 4 EMF's, I've had contact with 3 others for similar costs but decided not to pursue them.......so far I've used 13 EMF's in total.
Rose coloured glasses, Example - One guy gets stitched for 50 EMF's & they give him 6 back as a nice gesture to keep him going...Must have broken their bank.
YES, do you want a list? How about the millionaires club where you have too put up $25 thou, just for an interview? ............Seriously Vince, I'm talking about every day dating sites, it's usually the man who has to fork out the money, not the lady....And they don't charge ridiculous amounts to meet or to marry her either.
If you insist that the woman gives you direct contact after 5 EMF's? Pushing the fact that if they don't you will???? It's a very good possibility you end up with none. We're all real here we're not fooling ourselves. Forcing the issue makes anybody back away..........Too bad I'll move on to the next one if I need to, seriously there must be guys on here that have spent more on EMF's than a trip to China where they could have met someone themselves, I'm not here to destroy peoples hopes but I see a lot of naivety & I hope I can open a few eyes. If you are happy to correspond with someone at the cost of $20-$40 per week that you don't even really know exists, great, I hope for your sake it works but I am more of a realist and the old, Oh my computer is broken, my mother is ill, I don't have access to a computer won't wash with me, this is now a highly developed country, especially in the cities where the majority of these ladies live, I doubt too many are trapped in a sweatshop because they would not have the money to pay the exorbitant joining fees.
If I don't end up meeting someone then so be it, I honestly don't care because I'm not that desperate that I will fall in love with someone over the internet with whom I've never had any personal contact with. Having had 3 Japanese girlfriends in the past I've got a thing for Asians, even if I meet someone on here as a friend who can act as a guide whilst I'm on holiday that would be great, if I fall in love with her even better.
I wish everyone success & I hope everything works for you. I can see a ban coming on but I hope I've opened a few eyes before my post is deleted.
As we have all heard before, opinions are like as***les, everyone has one. What you know or think you know may be important. It's all about how you deliver it. My guess is that everyone who has entered into this adventure is smart enough to know there is risk involved. Maybe our eye's weren't wide open at the beginning, but isn't that why we have tuned in to this site?
I have started three businesses. In every case, the experiences were different. NONE of them played out exactly as I thought they would. To begin the trek of building a relationship with someone I've never met, thousands of miles away, was a long shot. It has the potential for several failures before success is to be had. It's called learning. For me and my adventure, that is part of the price I expected to pay.
This site has been a real eye opener and and a wealth of information. I am glad I found it. Even your rants make me think. Being teachable is the key. Even for those who think they know everything.
Skip
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mpo4747, Honestly mate I don't have much of a story worth telling, divorced about 18yrs ago (she took off with one of my mates.....I really missed him lol, but we are all the best of mates now) two beautiful kids who have grown up into great adults, had an absolute blast since my divorce, for the past 5yrs I've been living near the beach in Scarborough West Aus & during that time I've had somewhere around 30-35 mostly female Japanese boarders..........all under 30 & yes there have been some......well quite a few fringe benefits,.....hence the liking for Asian girls.
My last g/f had to leave because her visa ran out 6 months ago but we still speak once or twice a week through skype webcam. I was bored one night and looked up single Japanese ladies, nothing interesting there so figured I'd give China a shot to see if there was anyone worth looking at........"Oh Yess" also it's much cheaper to holiday in China which is the main reason I want to go, it's also easier to teach English too if I decide to stay a while.
I figured if I meet a couple of nice girls on here it would be great, if we don't hit it off we can at least be friends and they can act as a bit of a guide whilst I'm in their city, one of the ones I'm talking to seems great, she has her own house, an 8yo son & what seems like a couple of clothing outlets but works mainly from home, and believe it or not is paying for a translator to decipher my, & write her emails, obviously I will pay whatever she has spent on the translator when I go there in possibly about 5 ( I intended taking a holiday somewhere in Asia no matter what so this will work out great, also her translator is way cheaper than EMF's) weeks, that is if we are still talking & I see no reason not to be, we have been swapping photo's I even got one of her bedroom?? don't know what that means but I'm hoping it's good lol. But one thing I'm not doing is falling in love over the net & she agrees that we need to meet to take things further, so no mushy stuff & an honest word for word translator.
Funny thing is she was the first to send my her profile the day I joined which I ignored for a couple of weeks, I was on my last 2 credits (I'd only bought 10) & thought bugger it, I'll send her & another girl one each asking them to email me privately & not to teply by EMF, they both did but one agency also sent a reply to my EMF which I couldn't open till I bought more ( I got right up the agency for sending a reply ) as I had to buy more credits to read the reply DOH...... sneaky tactic!!!!
Anyhow the one I'm talking to the most sent a reply but it went to my junk box & I didn't find it for a few days lol, so after I replied we wrote a few times privately but were having some problems with some translations so we agreed to EMF as I had bought some more anyhow, I sent a long letter which she replied to but I said I would only EMF once a week & we would use google translate the rest of the time (which I find to be quite good fun) so she has cost me a grand total of 3 emf's I have her phone number, email address & you know the rest of the story so far......so if something happens, great, if not at least I'll have a guide for a while & I can then go to another city & meet the other girl who I've had a bit of contact with to meet, I won't tell her I'm in China unless I need to.
End of a rather boring story.
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Why do some people seem to think that there are some corrupt agencies out there is a revelation to us here and got nuts posting about it?!!
We all know there is, there has been countless posts about it, its gets boring after a while.
This forum is about the guys individual journeys, about supporting everyone no matter whether their experience is good or bad. What its not about is some kind of crusade to tar chnlove with a brush and declare it all bad, because frankly its not!! There are too many of here that have had good experiences for that to be the case.
Some people seem to think that its some sort of guarantee of success, well get real!, how many ladies have you dated in your life and not had work out? We'll unless you are some kind of Romeo then that's probably a lot more than you married right? So yes sometimes it doesn't work out when you go over there, hell that happened to me first time. That was nothing at all to do with the agency, it just wasn't meant to be, I don't blame chnlove for that at all, I'm old enough and experienced enough to know that sometimes these things just are not destined to be.
If people want to start some crusade against chnlove then please go join their friends on pfishy, those guys seem to to get a kick from that, me, I'd rather send my girl flowers and talk about how excited and delighted she was to get them and to my visiting her in 5 weeks 6 days 12 hours 2minutes time !
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I like this guy better now. You may call it a boring story? I call it a description of you. It tells me more of who you are. The only question I have is why all the criticisms? You don't have to answer, I just wonder.
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It's not so much criticisms (well it probably is) as trying to warn the less enlightened. Yes Chinalove has done some great things that would never have happened without them, but I still wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them. I've been working on internet scammers for years through http://www.thescambaiter.com/ & you tend to get an idea of what's good & what's not so good, I've read some good stories here & some pretty horrid ones, it's in my nature to warn those who may not be so street smart to be aware & be cautious, especially when everything you say or read is going through a third person who can fluff it up as much as possible to keep everything going.
Quick edit, Hey Paddy, I just googled pfishy bwahahahaha, som bitching on there, makes for some interesting reading.
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I just googled pfishy bwahahahaha, som bitching on there, makes for some interesting reading.
Now you know why the defensive. We don't want to have the forum like that. Talk of third party writings?
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Tom, after reading your interesting story, I understand you better and I am sorry if I came off a little strong in my first post to you :blush:, but there have been some that came here just to start trouble and then leave, but I see this is not the case with you so please let me (along with the others) welcome you to the brotherhood.
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No offense taken, I just say it how I see it. I'm not here to argue just like I said, hopefully open some eyes but after looking at that pfishy site I see it's all been said before.