[split] From the Passport up.

[Paul Todd]

This is from the "London Evening Standard".
Front page headline.....Don't listen to the whingers - London needs immigrants.

The results in London, and especially for middle-class Londoners, have been highly positive. It's not simply a question of foreign nannies, cleaners and gardeners - although frankly it's hard to see how the capital could function without them.Their place certainly wouldn't be taken by unemployed BNP voters from Barking or Burnley - fascist au pair, anyone? Immigrants are everywhere and in all sorts of jobs, many of them skilled.
It is so much more international now than, say, 15 years ago, and so much more heterogeneous than most of the provinces, that it's pretty much unimaginable for us to go back either to the past or the sticks. Of course we're too small a country to afford an open door - but, by the same token, if the immigrants dry up, this city and this country will become a much poorer and less interesting place.

[David5o]

Paul,

 I must be a Whinger then!!! Because we need Indian sub continent immigrants like we need a hole in our heads!!!!! Most are not skilled in anything, and if they are, there certificates and degree's are almost all fake!!

London doesn't need these immigrants, these so-called middle class set needs them, because there not prepared to pay the minimum wage demanded by law....

I have nothing against immigration as a whole, but i am totally 110% against immigrants coming to UK, and going straight to the Social Security Office demanding money and a place to live!!
Let them prove that they have a genuine boni fide job, and a genuine salary/wage checked by authorities ''BEFORE'' they are allowed in the country. Same as every other country demands....

If on the other hand an immigrant has bona fide skills that are needed, then no problem as far as i'm concerned. but lets start using a little commonsense, and start getting things in order. A good start is listing the skills that are needed in the UK and if an applicant doesn't have them, then it's a pointless exercise granting that person entry.  

I love these newspaper articles, that come out with all this crap about Immigration of these people is good for the country. Perhaps they should do a little more checking on just how much they cost the country in unemployment benifit, housing benifit, medical care, and all the other stuff they claim for......

Try immigrating yourself to another country (any country) and see just how far you will get, if you can't support yourself. One things for sure, they ain't gonna be giving you money, they ain't gonna give you a place to live, and they ain't gonna be providing your medical needs.....

One last point here, Au Pairs and overseas Nannies has been going on for years, ALL are on temporary 12 month Visa's, renewable for a further year. So you cannot include these foreign nationals as immigrants. Most of these, are Young adult women, coming to see/experience Britain, while taking extra studies to improve there English.

 
David

[Paul Todd]

David,

Let'e nail some of these myth's right now. Ever since I was fighting the NF[That was a political party that had a blatantly racist policy that organised marches through Indian/Pakistani housing area's ] in the streets of London in the 1970's I've heard these arguments . They where not true then and there not true now. Just to be clear I'm not calling you a racist by any means. Ok so:

Illegal immigrants are entitled to no benefits, medical treatment, housing, nothing. They can't even demand the minimum wage.

Legal immigrants have to have been in the country for a set amount of time, and earned the right to claim any sort of help or benefits,they get very little support...just enough to stop them from starving in the streets.

Refugees are entitled to bed and board, and have some rights regarding education - it depends on what sort of status they've been granted. However, they make up a tiny percentage of the people who come into this country and they are not a 'threat' to jobs and housing.
 
Foreign nationals do not get any sort of preferential treatment regarding jobs or housing, and many areas such as teaching and nursing would collapse were the UK to get rid of all foreign workers.

In 2007-2008, migrants in the UK contributed £31.2 billion in taxes and consumed £28.8 billion in benefits and state services. After rounding, this amounted to a net fiscal contribution of £2.5 billion. A number of assumptions were made to arrive at this
estimate but the main characteristics driving the effect were a smaller proportion of people over 65 in the migrant population and a larger percentage of migrants of working age than in the native born population. Further, although at that time a greater proportion of migrants were unemployed than was the case for the native population, a higher percentage were employed in professional and other high-skilled occupations.

The calculations relate to 2007-2008, when the government budget was in surplus overall. As a result, the average fiscal contribution of both natives and migrants was positive. Nonetheless, whilst the UK-born population was estimated to have paid almost 5 per cent more in taxes than it received in terms of public services and welfare benefits, migrants were estimated to have paid 10 per cent more than they received.

Between 2003-2004 and 2007-2008 it is estimated that revenue from migrants grew by 22 per cent in real terms as opposed to 6 per cent for the UK-born population.

The above extracts are taken form THE ECONOMIC AND FISCAL IMPACT OF IMMIGRATION: A Cross-Departmental Submission to the House of Lords Select Committee on Economic Affairs Presented to Parliament
by the Secretary of State.

Another one I hear a lot is, "Well were only a small island and they were not always here in such significant numbers there is no room left" This despite immigration into the UK dropping 44% last year and the number of people seeking Asylum dropping hugely since 2001. So let's get it straight:These figures are from the office for national statistics,

The number of people leaving the UK  reached a record high in 2008, with an estimated 427,000 people emigrating. This was up from 341,000 in 2007 and 398,000 in 2006. This rise was as a result of a 50 per cent increase in
non-British citizens emigrating from 169,000 in 2007 to 255,000 in 2008. Just over half of the 86,000 increase were citizens of the
A8 Accession countries which joined the EU in 2004.

An estimated 590,000 people arrived to live in the UK in 2008, the second highest figure on record after 596,000 in 2006. This compared with 574,000 in 2007 and represents a continuation of the level of immigration seen since 2004. Of all immigrants 505,000 (86 per cent) were non-British citizens in 2008.

Net migration, the difference between immigration and emigration, decreased from 233,000 in 2007 to 163,000 as a result of increased emigration. Not a huge amount of people considering the Uk population is 61.4 million. Hardly a large burden to bear for the 10th richest democracy in the world, and the"We were better off when there were less immigrants" fails to pay attention to the fact that the nature of Britain's economy has change considerably over the last 100 years - what used to be acceptable in how "the colonies" were treated and exploited, no longer is. I've lived for long periods of my life in India, Pakistan, Afghanistan and even Israel and no I've never tried to collect any kind of state benifit. I believe in earning my living just the same as most other migrants do. It's one world,  the days of "we must protect what we have against the outsiders" should be long past.

[David5o]

Paul,

Your right, i'm not a racist. Although i live in Cyprus, i still have many concerns towards my country of origin, and keep up (as much as possible) with it's current affairs. I, like yourself have spent most of my working life living and working overseas. So i too have worked in and around the Indian sub continent, as well as the Middle East and Asia etc.... It doesn't mean anything, apart from perhaps an insight of the general populations of those countries i've spent time in....

Lets clear one thing up straight away, in my last post i was not talking about ''illegal immigrants'' but Legal immigrants. Refugee's are yet another matter, and one that i outlined my opinions on in a previous post, save to say that over 90% of these so-called refugees are not genuine and do not meet the criteria of being a refugee, They are, to all intents-ant purposes ''economic refugees''

I'm glad you brought up that Parliamentary report, There was a lot of discussion on it within the media at the time. I can remember a guy representing the report on special BBC's Question time, and it turns out that there were so many holes in it, it really wasn't worth the paper it was written on. I think they called it ''creative accounting'' where they missed or left out significant areas where the tax payer was footing the bills. The guy that was taking the flack, couldn't or wouldn't answer specific questions put to him, and was unable or reluctant to confirm or reject other panelists figures and assessments. I am almost certain that, that report was later to dropped and deferred to a further report due summer of 2010....

You tend to put a lot of faith in reports and articles going by your threads here. I, on the other hand do not, i've found over the years that many of these reports and articles only tell you what others want you to know, or are leaning towards the authors views on the subject matter. Another thing i've learned over the years, figures can be made to reflect whatever you want them to say, ...i know that one, because i've had to use that ploy myself on many projects...lol!!

Now i will give you some facts relayed to me by two family members that hold manergerial positions in Essex County Councils Social Security departments one of whom is very high up the ladder. Refugees ''DO'' in fact get priority housing (paid for by Social Security Housing benefits Including , but not limited to deemed necessary furniture and white goods, Refugee's and Immigrants Do get substantial payments from Social Security, They all have leave to use the National Heath System, and there children are all receiving Education, including higher education.

I'm not sure if you were in the UK when the Bosnian refugee's hit Britain? Well if you can remember them, ....Surprise, surprise there still there in the UK, years after the conflict has ended, and still living in the Council houses provided for them, so still denying those houses that are basically there for the local community. .....Who knows, perhaps they too now have British passports!!!

My main point to the last post i made was towards the immigrants from the Indian sub-continent. Probably of all the immigrants we now have in the UK,  have the least tendency to integrate into the British way of life, preferring instead to create there own areas within towns and cities, many of which have been turned into ghettos. Most couldn't speak English when they came and still can't now, and have no intention to learn either. They rely on there children for translation. Sure there are some high flyer's from that area of the world that have immigrated to UK and made a success, but the vast majority came to UK with no education at all, which is why the congregate into there own areas, ....at least they can communicate with there own!! One things for sure, they might not speak, write, or understand English, ...but they sure know there way around the Social Security system, and they know there rights down to the last letter, .....when it suits them!!!

As i said before, any immigrant that has a skill that is required in the UK, That has a work offer in that field and is not going to be a burden to the country, is fine by me, ... no matter what his colour or creed maybe. And lets be fair about it too, if that person can't speak a word of English what possible use is he going to be to an employer???

I could go on and on here, but i'm not, i just can't be arsed. I've witnessed things for myself, the local schools, the hospitals including the big named London hospitals and the decline of certain parts of my past local areas and parts of London. ....I'm not impressed!!! Are they the sole reason of that decline, i dare say there not, but there certainly a contributing factor, and it's a factor we can well do without....

David....

[Philip]

Well said, Paul. I'm glad you you have the good sense not to subscribe to the Daily Mail-type of scapegoating of a whole nation of people, who somehow get labelled as being responsible for all the ills of the world. The National Front confuses itself by blaming immigrants for taking our jobs, then blames them for not having jobs and sponging off the state. Make up your mind.
I happen to teach in a school in East London. Many of my colleagues are of Bangladeshi origin. They are hard-working, pay taxes like the rest of us, contribute a lot to the community, do not live in a ghetto as far as I am aware, and many of them I count as good friends. I do not lump them all together and generalise about them. I visited Bangladesh last year, visiting schools in some of the rural areas and, while I saw some extreme poverty, I also saw an incredible work ethic and a respect and commitment to the value of education.
It's funny how those who are quick to castigate a whole nation or an ethnic group are slow to recognize the enormous economic benefit that they bring to a country. I, for one, am happy to live in a tolerant, multi-cultural city, where you can hear many languages spoken every day and where you are not judged solely on what you look like or where you come from, but on what you do.

[David5o]

Philip,

I thought that was the whole point of the above posts, the economics of the influx of  immigrants! So prey tell me where this ''Enormous economic benifit'' is, because i'm dammed sure i haven't seen any of it on my visits back to Blighty??.

The Daily Mail?? i always regarded that rag as mainly a woman's paper!!... haha!!
Why is it that anytime anyone has anything to say about immigration topics, your suddenly classed as either a member of the NF or your a racialist or even worse?? For the record, i'm neither, and i can't say i can ever remember reading the Daily Mail. But i do have my views on the matter, and those views are based on what i see with my own eyes and my own experiences. I have no truck with this Political correctness crap, i speak as i find. I don't have a closed mind either, in fact i would say it's a lot more open than many that spurt out this new wave political correctness.... One day that political correctness is going to turn round and bite many on backside!!

Now i know the East End of London, and your not going to tell me that, that isn't one of the area's of London that is now predominantly an Asian area these days. and your not going to tell me either that it's gone noticeably downhill over the last 20/25 years or so, as the Asian community has moved in. What i'm pointing out here, is exactly what i was saying above, the Asian community does not integrate, ...instead they congregate and thus draw attention to themselves and to the areas they live!!

How can you not generalise about the Asian community Philip, do you have to name them country by country??  I've lived and worked in Bangladesh, so i know exactly where and what the Bangladesh's have come from. What i don't want to see, is that life being brought to the UK...   I don't mind at all hearing multi-national languages in my old City, but then i do expect them to speak and understand English too. Not for my benifit, but for there's and the countries benifit.

Have you been to the London Hospital in Aldgate recently??  Where the notice board in the foyer has not one single notice in English, were the receptionist is accompanied by a translator and the majority of the doctors have to have translators too. When i last took my late mother to the London hospital for her yearly check-up, apart from one other English guy the patients waiting area was all, of Asian decent. So Who's paying all these translators, for maybe half a dozen different Asian dialects/languages?? Just another hidden cost to the health system that no-one thinks about, until you start multiplying the different departments, then multiplying across all the London hospitals and beyond!!  Starts looking a bit more serious then doesn't it??  

But hey!!,  i mustn't say anything, i mustn't have any thoughts on the matter, i have to follow those that wish to deny what they too can see, .....Or do they walk around with there eyes closed??  
Well not me i'm afraid, ...Sorry if i offend anyone here, but if i think something is wrong i will say so, until of course i'm proved wrong. Never been frightened to speak my mind and never been frightened to admit when i'm wrong either.....

[Paul Todd]

David,

Phillip is right.The UK is a multicultural society now, there's no going back. It's not Uganda under Idi, what are you going to do send them all "home?". A great number of our Indian brothers and sisters came over in the 50's and now we have second and third generations who where born and raised here, they are as English as you and I. The integration debate is an interesting one, I love the Indian area's of our cities like I love China town and my personal favorites are the West Indian/Jamaican "Ghetto's" When you took your mother to hospital in London and I do hope she's in good heath by the way,how many doctors and nurses where of Asian decent? quite a few I'll bet.

I think people are now questioning more than ever whether multi-culturalism instead of bringing us all together actually encourages separateness, But this has to be driven to some extent by the underlying roots of discrimination and racism faced by many black and ethnic minority communities. Then you have the debate over faith based schools. Its a very complex situation.We have a strong tradition of tolerance in the UK ,look back in the Victorian era for example. Britain welcomed the most radical thinkers in Europe,most of the barred from there own country. In the home of capitalism Marx wrote Das Capital, Lenin walked the streets of east London and Bakunin and Peter Kropotkin formulated the beginnings of anarchist theory. Much later at the turn of the century French intelligence service called the capital Lononistan because of how free radical Islamists were to set up camp here. There's a lot more at stake here than first meets the eye so lets not throw the baby out with the bath water..

You correct when you say I like reports and surveys and when I post stuff  here I do try to give reasons why I have said something I think its better than repeating something a friends uncles aunt who has a brother who works for whoever said. Surveys like anything else can be manipulated so I for one only use them for guidance,I suspect we are the same when we read anything like this we check  to see who published it first ! There is a fine line between pointing somthing out that you see is wrong and simply whinging about it.

The Uk now has a points based immigration system like Australia, which is something I;ve advocated for a long time so at least where moving in a positive direction. I still believe these people enrich our society keep it vibrant and alive in the 21st century. I personally don't long for some long past idyllic view of middle England. In fact truth be told I find it a miserable little island full of Daily mail/Telegraph readers. so I can quite understand why you live in Cyprus and sit by your pool.

[Philip]

The reason I do not generalise and make unfounded assumptions is because the majority of the asian community in my area are from Bangladesh (there are, of course quite a few Chinese asians in my area too.) But the vast majority are Bangladeshi. More than that, they are mostly from the Sylhet region of Bangladesh. Do you see how you can be specific if you actually know the people? It will be a surprise for my Bangladeshi friends to hear that they don't mix and that they and their families keep themselves to themselves. They will have a good laugh about that one. They will also be curious to discover that their community has been responsible for the decline of the East End.
The East End has a disenfranchised white working class. Again, I work with many people who remember the East End as it used to be. Their  homes have been knocked down and replaced by yuppie apartments for rich people who work in Canary wharf. Although it would be easy for those hard-working white men and women to scapegoat another disenfranchised group, they are wise enough to resist such pat generalisations.
Yes, I do know that hospital. Many of the children in my school have complex medical conditions (they have learning difficulties) and they spend a lot of time in that hospital. There are many asian doctors there and they help save lives, rather than ruin livelihoods. My brother and his wife had a baby at that hospital two weeks ago and I don't think they received an inferior service for being white. I have a lovely healthy nephew.
What are these half a dozen dialects and languages? In the Sylhet region of Bangladesh, they speak Sylheti and they read standard Bengali. - end of story. When I go to China, despite my efforts to learn the language, I am certainly grateful to have a translator while I am struggling (electronic or human)

[David5o]

Paul, Philip,

Your both making assumptions about my views on immigration. For the record i haven't said or implied that i want to take the UK back 50 years or whatever. I also have no problem with multi cultural society in UK. So instead of making unfounded assumptions, why not answer the points i've raised here. No, ...instead you bypass, and go off in another direction, widening the field as you go.

If you noticed, i didn't say that the treatment of patients at the London Hospital was inferior or bad, i was asking/stating the point about the cost of all these translators that seemed to be everywhere. Is that not a drain on the health system in the UK, and one we could well do without??
Also i'm sure there are Asian nurses within that hospital, but i would say there are far more Caribbean nurses than Asian.

Philip, i have no idea what part of the East End of London you live and work in, but i know that there are a lot more communities than just Bangladeshis in the East End. Frankly i'm not going name each and every country, region, and sect and religion. Quite honestly there is absolutly no need for being that specific in this discussion.

You did make me laugh though Philip, when you stated/implied that indigenous white folk of the East End had no-problems with the amount of Asian communities now established in the East End, because they ''DO'' ...and are more than vocal about it when ever the subject is broached. Many have reluctantly moved out of the area for that very reason, ...So again your making assumptions that suit your belief and not based on fact.

i'm going to cut this short now, ...Basically what i originally started off saying and still believe that London and basically the whole of UK needs more Asian immigrants like we need a hole in the head.
Immigration has an overall debt cost to the country/taxpayers and don't let anyone fool you into thinking otherwise. Refugee's/Asylum seekers are basically economic illegal immigrants, that have traveled thousands of miles through countless countries to reach Britain, where they know they can get free everything, and money in there pocket. Now if the UK can come up with a system that works, where Immigration doesn't cost the country money, then great that's fine by me, until then, my views on this subject remain the same.

Two last points, .... Philip, whatever translation method you go for in China, YOU will be paying for it, it don't come free...Right??
Yes, i do live in Cyprus Paul, i've worked all my life to have what i enjoy now, it has nothing to do with immigration in the UK whatsoever!!! This what my late wife and i had planned for years.

Believe it or not, even this little Island of Cyprus is now experiencing an influx of Asians, ...Thank God, they don't give them Passports here. they get 2 years and then they have to GO!!! But hey!! they are trying the asylum thing too, funny, ....just before they have to go home!!!


David....

[Paul Todd]

David,

Where do you get these idea's from? Here are some facts not here say or rumours whipped up by the press. Please have a close look at them. Thanks:

The facts to undermine the racist myths,

There is no such person as an 'illegal asylum seeker'. By law, anyone has the right to enter Britain and apply for asylum, and to stay until a final decision has been made. The government is not allowed to penalise a refugee or asylum seeker for having false papers or ID - the 1951 Convention to which Britain is a signatory recognises the difficulty of gathering the correct papers when fleeing war or persecution.

Three out of four asylum seekers are fleeing countries in conflict: Iraq, Somalia and Afghanistan have been in the top five sources of refugees for the last three years. In 2006 23 percent of asylum applications were granted, and one in five appeals went in favour of the applicant.

In 2006 there were 1,396,000 overseas workers in Britain and 49,370 asylum applications.

The largest group of people who come to Britain to work are European - 517,000 - and a third of those are Irish. 87,000 Australians and New Zealanders are happily residing here; yet the headlines in the Sun and the Express never reflect this. Ask yourself why?

A Mori poll in 2006 found that respondents believed 23 percent of the world's refugees came to Britain. In reality Asia hosted half of all refugees, asylum seekers and internally displaced persons, with Iran hosting most refugees (1.3 million out of a total 10 million). Britain hosted 270,000 refugees - just 2.8 percent of the total and 0.4 percent of the British population. Yes 0.4%,spongers everywhere?  

Asylum seekers cannot claim mainstream benefits. A single adult must survive on just 38.96 per week - 70 percent of basic income support. A report by Oxfam and the Refugee Council found that 85 percent of asylum seekers experience hunger, 95 percent cannot afford to buy clothes and 80 percent cannot maintain good health. Asylum seekers make up just 0.5 percent of those receiving benefits in Britain. Not a great amount is it!

A Home Office report shows that people born outside the UK contribute 10 percent more to the economy in taxes than they consume in benefits and public services - equivalent to 2.5 billion a year. Looks like a benifit to the country to me!

[shaun]

The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain.

[Paul Todd]

Hehe hehe point taken Shaun :icon_cheesygrin:

[shaun]

No worries Paul.  I am in one of those messing with people moods tonight.  It was all in fun.:icon_cheesygrin:

[Willy The Londoner]

All I want to say is that Phillip lives in  a part of London that I know well - In my lifetime it has changed from being a mainly Jewish area to one where the Bangladeshis have really settled in.

Where I used to live in North London is a massive Turkish/Kurdish element and going up to Tottenham and Edmonton Africans are prominent.

In Southall there is a enormous Indian population.  In N and NW london the Poles and other nationalities are widespread.  Different parts of London have their own proportion of immigrants from one country or another.

I have no idea whether they contribute positively or not to the economy - all I know is that London as a city has changed so much in the last 30 years that I do not recognise it as the place it once was.   The same can be said of Manchester, Birmingham and some other cities.

Whether it is a good or bad thing  I no longer care as I never intend to go back there to live.   The people of the UK have made their choice and they have to live with it, usually egg on by the middle class do gooders who live far far outside of the city centres and really have a blinkered approach to what it is like to actually live in a modern day Inner City.  Even some MPs who represent London Boroughs generally live outside of London or in the leafy suburbs.

Ok so i am an immigrant now in China.   But I can truly say that I have brought with me the higher level of behaviour than is now clearly not evident in London.

But what is happening in cities in UK, is probably happening in USA and most other so-called liberal westerm democracies BUT will not happen in China in my lifetime.   It will not be allowed to happen.

Immigrants now refuse to accept housing association accommodation and only want to move into directly owned council property so that they have a RIGHT TO BUY!!

Met Police has a large but special unit for solely dealing with Black on Black killings.

 85% of young people jailed for murdering other teenagers in the past five years have been from immigrant familes.

The list goes on and I no longer have an answer but just one question WHY?

Willy

[ttwjr32]

because we coddle everyone and allow it to go on
 in theory because we dont want to offend