Having some doubts...about site and lady

[Lain]

Sorry for the long initial post.

Ok so I joined chnlove about a year ago, and have conversed with several ladies all of whom seemed very sincere and legitimate but it seemed that I was unable to find that special one. After about a 4 month break form the site I decided to dust off my profile, upload a new picture and give it a try again.

Shortly after that a lovely lady contacted me first and much to my surprise she is virtually everything I have been looking for...and more beautiful than I could have ever dreamed of. We have been conversing for about 4 months and shared many letters over this time.  I found her profile page for the Chinese equivalence of FaceBook on 51.com where she had many pictures of herself and many things that she had on her profile were exactly as she portrayed her profile on chnlove so I felt that she is a honest and sincere person.

For the most part things have gone smoothly but last month she asked me to come see her and I agreed. I operate a web based company and I explained to her that I will need some time to arrange it so that I can operate my business while in China (not an easy task for security reasons) So over the course of the past few weeks I have been getting everything together, vaccinations, passport, visa.....etc. Even trying to pick up some basic Chinese phrases........My first trip to China!!

Then last week she drops this bomb on me that she told her mother that I would be coming to see her and now the entire trip is in limbo as I await for her mothers permission to simply come and visit her daughter....Who will be 23 in May. I was planning to come see her shortly after her birthday. I really wanted to be there for her birthday, but thought that would be imposing and awkward for her.

I was a bit perplexed over needing her mothers permission to see her as I assumed that when she joined the chnlove site...that it was a given that her family would be aware. (guess not)  It does appear that it will work out, but I may still need to meet her mother first. Needless to say this is something that I explained to her that unless I have permission BEFORE I come that I would not make the trip. I have offered to speak with her mother on the phone with a translator to address any questions she may have.....still up in the air. I knew there will be issues like this and I have lots of patience (required) to work through these hurdles.

So now here is where I am starting to have concerns.

1) I sent flowers to her for the New Year/ Valentines Day but she asked me to send them to the agency as she might not be in town to get them....understandable for holiday so I did just that. The agency refused the delivery and the order was canceled by them. Needless to say I was upset with chnlove as the explanation they gave as the reason to cancel (but not to refund) my order was "canceled for certain reasons".....ambiguous explanation is an understatement. I filed a complaint with PayPal for a refund and what do ya know, they were delivered that same week. She uploaded pics of them to her profile on the 51.com site so I know she actually got them.

2) So about week and a half ago I sent a little gift to her as a surprise to her address as it is listed on her chnlove profile. So here it is almost 2 weeks later and even though it shows as delivered only 5 days after I  placed the order....she has not mentioned the gift even once in this time and she has sent me at least 4 letters since.

Am I being paranoid here in thinking that something is not right here?? She has always been quick to thank me for my kind words and respectful gestures that I have expressed to her family....but not a single word for the gift. Should this be a red flag?? Is it normal that she would not acknowledge a gift given?

Secondly I have tried on a few occasions to converse directly with the agency who she is dealing with about getting some assistance while I am there but they have no direct email address or phone numbers. I mean what the heck? Am I expected to PAY for a letter to the agency using the service just to get some answers and assistance?

I know the odds are not stacked in my favor with this lady....but I really want this too work out and I am doing my homework to account for virtually any pitfalls....and YES, I have spent several DAYS reading over 100 posts here..Great Stuff!

I am really, REALLY looking forward to this trip, but as the date comes closer there are some nagging problems that make me question a few things. Any words of advice, good-or-bad I am open to get some help.

[David5o]

Lain,

First off, ...Welcome to the Forum...

Quite frankly, i've never heard of needing a mothers permission before you can meet a lady!!! You tell us her age, but give no indication of your own age here, ...maybe this is the problem, are you much older than this young lady?? can you also give an indication of what part of China your lady lives in...

David....

[Martin]

I want to first ask you which agency you are dealing with?  There is one thing I want to talk about, and will leave some of the bigger questions to the more experienced guys.

When a lady signs up with an agency, she is not necessarily looking for a western man.  The agency is a marriage agency, and chnlove.com is only one avenue for the agency to get the woman name out there.  It could be, when she first signed up to the agency, that she was expecting to be with a Chinese man.  Therefore, mothers permission would be a lot easier to get.  But now she is writing a western man, and mother might not be too keen on this all.

I just wanted to write that, so there was no confusion on this part.  I think chnlove should do a better job of explaining this to its clients (us).

As for the other questions...the more important questions, I will leave this for the more experienced guys here.

Oh, and welcome to the site!

[Lain]

Quite frankly, i've never heard of needing a mothers permission before you can meet a lady!!! You tell us her age, but give no indication of your own age here, ...maybe this is the problem, are you much older than this young lady?? can you also give an indication of what part of China your lady lives in...

Indeed, I am 39 years old and even I do have some concerns over the age difference. However I would point out that I am very active and I do not look a day over 30..in fact I got carded last week for a beer at Applebees! She states that her mother is very protective over her, and is mostly worried that I will take her daughter away and leave her mom to have nobody to take care of her. I have actually made it clear that I am more than open to living in China and in fact may end up there since my company is internet based (B2B Commerce) and my current US Dollar income would allow me to have a good life there.....ah actually make that VERY good! My servers are all located in the US, but I can manage them from anywhere I have internet access.

She is located in Xiolan Town (Zhongshan) but she tells me that this is not her hometown. I have asked where her family lives as she also has an older sister. She is sort of not wishing to talk about her family much, other than to inform me that her parents are divorced and that its "complicated"....Knowing what I do about China and the effects of having 2 daughters on the family system...I am willing to let this pass until we build a closer relationship. I would also like to reiterate that SHE contacted me from my profile, so there should be no issues with her either not knowing where I am from or how old I am. I am very familiar with family requirements for marriage, and like you I've never heard of needing a mothers permission before you can meet a lady!!!

I want to first ask you which agency you are dealing with?

To be very honest the quality of the translations are very inconsistent. I actually just filed a request that they provide me full contact information such as postal address, phone numbers and a direct email address for this agency. I also requested (suggested) that they provide this information on the agency profile page.

As I mentioned above, she contacted me and read my profile...My picture clearly shows me as a "plain white guy" so there should be no reason for any confusion on the issue of not knowing my origination.  To be clear she still wants me to come, but needs to make sure that this will not create a "rift" between her and her mother. Of course I can very much understand, but as I pointed out to her....At what point were you going to tell me before I actually purchased the plane tickets? Thankfully I have not yet bit was going too only a few days before she dropped this bomb on me. I have told her that I have no problem with our first meeting being a family one with a translator present for as long as her mother needs to address her concerns. However my lady has not given me any feedback on this idea. It may be that her mother lives too far away? Not sure, she is just telling me that she will work it out and just needs some time to convince her mom that this whole online dating thing is legitimate. This may be a crossing of two problems. one of culture and another of generational / technological differences? Either way time is running out on my visa and she has not given me any idea of how long this will take.

[ttwjr32]

Lain,
as he two of you were writing was Marriage discussed when you visited?? If so maybe
she thinks that the two of you will get married when you get there for a visit. Hence the
approval of mom is what she is seeking before marriage.

also have the two of you just been writing and have not had any real contact as far as
web cam were you could talk between yourselves? maybe the translator has her thinking
you are coming to marry her this trip. not sure but just some ideas for you to ponder.

i hope it all works out for you and her so hang in there no matter what the outcome is
and welcome to the forum

Ted

[Lain]

We have not yet met in person, that was the point of this trip. We both have expressed our doubts as the the nature of the chnlove services but have continued with it and we agreed that upon our first meeting it would NOT be about marriage. Our plan was to meet in person to get to know each other and simply spend some quality time with each other over a week or so with no expectations. The idea here was to reduce the distance barrier and allow each of us to see that we are "real" people and see if the words we have both expressed have the same value when in person.

She does not have a computer, so the only communication to date has been via the chnlove services. I want to give her a computer as I have several older ones that I am not using that would be more than she needs. I have even set one up for secure remote access along with a built in Reverse SSH-Tunnel to my server based private chat system. But until we meet in person I am apprehensive about spending the money to ship it off to her along with a web cam. Plus she has expressed some issue with the costs of internet access. I have told her that its not a problem, and that I would take care of it when we meet.

Just to be clear she has NEVER once asked me for anything....not a dime. I know where she works and given the nature of the job I do not think she is playing me? However that said there have been several contradictions in her letters over time....I just chalked this up to translation errors given that the service has been less than consistent. I am thinking that there may be more than 1 person who is doing the translations? Either way I asked chnlove for direct contact info for that agency and I plan to make several inquiries regarding some of these issues along with inquiries for translator services and other services for this trip.

Regardless of this issue and meeting my lady there, I am still planning a trip to Guangdong to see if I can securely operate my business while in China. I was planning to spend a year in Kunming learning Mandarin but given the drought issue that's off the table now and I have found a school in Guangzhou. So it seamed like an impossible dream come true to be able to go there to learn Mandarin and have this lovely lady with me as well. Maybe I should simply stop wasting my time/money with chnlove and wait until I am there for the year to learn Mandarin?

Its been 3 days since my last letter to her and she has not replied yet. I asked some hard questions and told her that I will still make this trip soon for other reasons that I described above. Since I had not heard anything about if she received my gift I also gently inquired if the address that is on her profile was accurate. She is usually fairly quick to reply to my letters, so needless to say I am a little concerned.

I appreciate your help on this issue....sadly I feel no better about any of this then I did before posting. But I do like having people to talk to about it who understand the trials and tribulations of this process. Needless to say its not exactly something that my friends and family really care to discuss.

[Martin]

I understand she does not have a computer.  My wife had a computer when I was writing to her, but no web camera.  This was not a problem, as she would go regularly to an internet cafe, and use their computers that did have a web camera.  I guess one of my concerns...one of several, is the lack of communication outside of the EMF's.  While some have made this trip to China based only on EMF's and have been successful, many other have not been successful.  Have you talked to her on the phone?  Any kind of communication outside of the EMF?

Another concern I have, is obviously the same concern that you have.  This last gift that you sent to her...in fact, even the first time you sent something, and it was not delivered until you started making waves.  It is very strange for a woman in any country (or man for that matter) to get a gift, and not acknowledge it.  There have been cases (and I am not saying yours is one of them), where a man has been writing to a woman, only to be writing a translator.  When he sends a gift, it ends up at the agency.

For myself, I see a bunch of red flags.  But this is me.  I am not saying for sure that there are problems here...but there does seem to be some odd signs pointing in the wrong direction.  When are you planning on taking this trip?  I would not be surprised if right before your trip, you get a letter saying she has to leave town on business, or her mother is sick and in the hospital.  I would be strongly urging direct contact with her via web camera.  Internet cafe's are plentiful in China.  Even in the smaller cities.  There are really no excuses for at least going on web camera even once.  It is not too expensive to do it once for even 30 minutes.

This is my opinion...please take it as that.

[Lain]

Martin, I agree with everything you said. While I hate to admit this, part of the reason why I sent the gift to her address without saying anything to her first was in part to "validate" it. As a computer expert and very handy at finding virtually anything on the internet I was a bit perplexed by my inability to get a lock on the address. Also I had a few conversations as to what hotels I should stay at and she told not to worry about it that she would help me find one once I got there.....Needless to say I explained that I have several requirements such as high speed internet access and that I would need to make a reservation BEFORE coming. Also it seems that EVERY flight I have checked out has me arriving at 9:45 at night in Guangzhou and there is still about a 1.5 hour drive to Zhongshan from the airport. The LAST thing I want to do is find a hotel at 11pm in a foreign country!!!

I am planning this trip for the later part of May as that is when my visa will expire and the weather gets a bit rainy in that region in June-July. Again the odd thing here is that SHE asked me to come see her. So if there is some sort of scam going on here, I am not seeing it. I would think that if the agency is pulling a fast one to get more credits from me that they would simply keep putting it off in order to get me write more often??.....newbie here so maybe I am ignorant?

In my last letter I did make a request that we start to exchange emails even if the translation is not perfect. My thoughts are that I simply cannot afford to have a translator forever! I did get the Besta-7000 (very cool:icon_cool:) and I told her that if we keep the emails simple, than it will help us to communicate in a more personal way that may not be possible via chnlove. Since she has a page on 51.com (Chinese Facebook) than she obviously has the ability to use a computer somewhere. I know she has a cellphone with a camera...she likes to take pictures of herself in fancy clothes where she works as a clerk. I suggested this once before early on but she claimed that is was not convenient. I would note that she rarely updates or even posts on her 51.com profile page...so??

As mentioned, I am still making this trip regardless if there is anyone there to meet as I am making plans to spend a year there and will need to see about a secure access to my network so I can run my company. Also I just want to get a chance to experience it in a small dose before committing to to the full year there. That was one of the appeals of the Kunming location....smaller city, less industry and awesome weather!!

Of course as of late I have been marking a list of other ladies who are in Guangdong and will make some inquiries to them before my trip if this whole thing goes south with this current lady.........I hope it works out with her, but I am a realist as well.

[JimB]

I agree, I would NOT trust the agency.  There have been guys here who have written thru the agency asking for direct contact information while telling the agency that they would still be using EMF's.  That way the agency believes they are still going to get your money from them.  They are more willing this way.  Secondly I personally would not make the trip to her without at least an agency web cam chat.  They are usually more than willing to set one up.  Of course her hangup will be the language issue.  That is very common.  But through the agency they will be able to translate for you.  If she is unwilling to do even that, it would raise a very big red flag.  You can still do it, but we have seen too many guys lose out when they have not had at least that contact.
Her age is another issue.  She is very young and since the 1980's there has been the one child rule in China so she could very well be an only child and her mother may have instilled this in her since childhood especially if she is divorced that her daughter is her only source of help in her old age.  She should not have gotten onto the agency roles unless she was sure this is what she wanted as it is usually very expensive for them.  But again she is young and maybe immature.  
Listen to your own instincts, they are usually the best indicator. Stay around here, there are a lot men who have friends and friends of friends who are looking for a western man.  So if this doesnt work out, try again. by the way welcome.  i would suggest you spend some time reading through the forums and getting ideas.

[Martin]

I don't know where you are...but if you are close to Canada, there is a red eye flight out of Toronto's Pearson International Airport.  It goes to Hong Kong first, and then you can change planes, and go to Guangzhou.  I have never taken this flight, but I believe Chong(Another member here) has.

The airline is Cathay Pacific.  I just checked it out, and I see it leaves Pearson at 1:30 AM, and arrives in GZ at 8:55 AM.  This would solve the arriving at night problem.

Also, since you are going through GZ, you might consider visiting our resident forum Ambassador.  TTWJR32 (Ted) visits with many guys coming through the city.

[David5o]

Lain,

I know you have reiterated that it was ''Her'' that contacted you in the first instance, but in all likelihood it was the Agency/translator that was sending out the admiration letters on her behalf. Your lady not knowing anything about it until you replied...

Going back to the age thing, ..... These Chinese younger ladies can be quite fickle to say the least Lain, (especially when being an only child. But your saying she has a sibling sister, but then she is the youngest, so probably a little spoilt anyway....)  Has she mentioned anything about the age difference to you??  

The communication thing you have with her at the moment is rather basic to say the least. Not only that, it's open to abuse from the agency side of things. Which could be one reason why you get contradictory/conflicting messages. This is where the translator has written some of the replies, and these tend to be full of fluff to keep you keen ...lol!!! ( You'd be surprised how often that sort of thing goes on a these agencies)

As for not having a computer, that's pretty much a lame excuse these days. There are multitudes of internet cafes everywhere in China now Lain, even if she managed to find the time once a week to visit one of these internet cafe's, ...it would show some positive interest in you. And i can assure you when a Chinese lady IS interested, they tend to go that extra mile for you....

As i see it, your having a good few doubts about this lady at the moment, and it's going to be difficult for you to get to the bottom of anything, while your going through a third party all the time in your communications!!  As your going over to China anyway in the very near future , why not leave things as a status quo and sort things out with her when you get over there. Believe me you'll know if there's a future for you both from ''Day One''

In the meantime, you can try making suggestions about other means of communication, in the form of emails, Phone calls, IM's and webcam IM's ...just depends on her English abilities, if she will prepared to partake in those activities. It can be a lot of fun, if your serious about each other, and at the very least shows willingness to at least try to communicate...  

David....

[Lain]

Thanks JimB,

I have actually spent about a week reading up here before I registered. Lots of good stuff to be sure!

As for her family, she does have an older sister but her parents are divorced. In fact she states the problem with her mother was due to her older sister telling her mother before this lady had a chance to do it first. There seems to be some "issues" between her and her sister as she is not too keen on talking about her and when she has its not been in a positive manner....Usually I get the reply "Its Complicated"

As I already mentioned as well, and you noted YES...it seams that part of this issue is that her mother has expressed the idea that she may be left alone in China. But as I have also eluded too, I am very open to the idea of living there if we were to get married as I have very few family members here in the states and since I can operate my company from anywhere it makes great financial sense to live there. Heck if I took my income from last year and converted it to RMB I could have bought a nice apartment with money left over to furnish it!!

She should not have gotten onto the agency roles unless she was sure this is what she wanted as it is usually very expensive for them.

Yes, this is something that I did bring up a few letters ago, and I asked her POINT BLANK that if she was not committed to this process that she should tell me now. I explained that while I was not mad at her, I was upset that she would join up for a service like this and NOT tell her family. That being said she explained to me that she planned on telling her family IF she found someone that she thought would be a match. Her profile is 2 years old and she tells me that in all that time none of the men she has spoken with have made her feel as special as I have, and that I am the first one she has asked to come see her. But as explained above it seems her sister beat her to the punchline in regards to informing her mother.

It all seems a bit crazy, but yesterday I was biking around the OSU campus where I live and I asked a few young Chinese girls out on the oval (large courtyard) what their parents would think if they were still in China and asked to date a western guy...of 3 that I spoke too, they all said it would be problematic. And these are Chinese ladies going to school here in the US!! So it may really be a major family matter?? There are just too many other red flags for me and if I am actually being gamed I would like to cut my losses short and use them for my trip.

[JimB]

One more thing about the Chinese, they are very reluctant to talk about their family in any real way until you are a part of it.  So dont be misled by that fact either way,    As you say, she told you that you are the first one to come to see her.  She is probably scared and could be using her mother as an excuse.  I would do three things.  First calm her fears down, reassure her you are only there for the two of you to get together and see if there is any chemistry, no expectations of sex or anything, dont push her, You have to put yourself in her shoes.  She has probably heard horror stories about western men coming over and marrying them, taking them back to the US and setting them up as prostitutes or being abused by her husband.  I heard that a number of times. Thankfully Gina knows me and doesnt listen to them.  we have been married for 8 months now.  I heard of, I cannot remember who it was now, he is a member here, taking his new wife to a Chinese restaurant here in the US and the Chinese waiter telling his wife this.  She got all upset.  secondly get a web cam visit.   Thirdly go to China and have a ball. It will be the experience of a lifetime.  Then if it doesnt work out, let Ted and Willy set you up, they know the places in GZ.
She is very pretty as are a lot of Chinese women.  There are a lot more out there so dont be afraid to cut it off if it doesnt meet your expectations.  It used to be that Chinese women matured faster than a man but i dont know if that still holds true today.  Especially if they are an only child.   I see a lot of spoiled younger women. My step daughter being one of them.  
I know you said she had a sister, but it could be a step sister.  Chinese men are allowed to marry and have 3 children, each with a different wife of course, but the women can only have one without government approval.  That could be why it is "complicated".

[ttwjr32]

and to add a little to what JimB has stated with the horror stories that they
 have heard. there are a lot of young ladies here in China that are a little hesitant
 of western men because of being told that we are only interested in sex with them
 Looking for conquests as they have related to me in discusions. i have heard this many times
 from the reading corners i attend to read to and talk with people wanting to  learn
and better their english.

 but i like Martin just see to many red flags here especially after a 4 month letter
 writing campaign that should not be ignored.

and if you do come this way and sounds like you are then look me up when you get
here and i will give you any help that you might need when here.

[brett]

Ive only read a bit of this thread, but 23 is very young - is there much of an age difference? All ladies mature at different ages of course - my ex was 29, but she was incredibly young and I am looking for someone much more mature.

Parental (especially the mother`s) approval is very important!