China Romance
General Discussion and Useful Links => The Campfire => Topic started by: Martin on May 13, 2009, 04:00:21 pm
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This is a thread for anyone to post their religious views...for people to ask questions, etc.
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Thanks Martin , we will meet here every Sunday morning for a Brotherhood Mass .
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Amen Brothers.
I'm not a religious person. I've never really gone to church or read a bible. I will say that I absolutely believe in God. Holding a newborn daughter in your arms and seeing the beauty and joy in her eyes is proof enough for me. And now having my daughters grown up healthy, happy and well adjusted is too.
I don't believe I have to pray a certain way or tithe 10% of my income in order to be saved. As long as I treat people with love and respect and live my life with a positive attitude and a smile on my face, I'll be fine.
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Neil, well I have gone to church (es) and read the bible many times over. But still have the same feeling as you. I have a problem with religions. Who's better? Who's has more? My God's better then yours? My God can beat up your God? Seems pretty silly to me. Anyone that want's to believe what they want has no problem with me, just keep it outta my face.
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Well Vince, there lies the problem. I think that true believers and followers of any faith do not have this attitude. A true believer does not think that their God can beat up another God. This is what makes religion so frustrating to so many people...because of those that shout at the top of their lungs, but don't say anything worth saying.
Personally, my problem with religion...or Christianity, are those that go to church on Sunday, and try to look all holy...but won't give you the time of day any other day of the week. I guess hypocrisy drives me nuts.
On another note, I do view myself as a Christian...but not a practising one. But it does lead me to some questions about what we are doing here. Since we do have some practising Christians in this group, I would love to hear their opinion.
1. What is the thought on marrying someone you met online..in many cases, meeting only once before getting married...I am looking for a Christian perspective on this.
2. What is the thought on marrying someone who is Buddhist?
I am sure I will have more questions in the future.
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I am a Catholic , do go to Church , but not often . I do pray everyday , mostly for other's and to keep Qing and her Family safe and healthy . This Chnlove journey , I did not seek ... it was put into my Lap , so to speak and I followed it , after my first Wife passed away . So , I most definitly believe in God ( now more then ever ) and I know God love's all religion's , or he would not have shown me the way to my Qing , which is a Buddhist .
I'm also with Mike , marriage is between a Man and a Woman . Not that I don't like a gay Man / Woman , I do not hate anybody due to Race , Color , Religion or sexual preference's . After all , we are all Human Being's in God's eyes and also through mine . That is why , I have no problem ..with / had .. marrying Qing .
God give us all opportunities in Life , to be a good or better Person . Is that not what I'm doing right now ? He gave me the opportunity to help ... and for it ... I received many Friends in return . That is worth more then Money , in Heaven's Bank .
I say how I feel , but do not push that believe on anybody . The ones that don't believe , I don't like them any less ... for it .
Amen.
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I still say (I) take people at face value no matter what they are. Makes no difference the religion, color, race or sexual preference. If they are good people or bad makes the difference to me. Amen
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In Lao ,a buddhist country, the law states that you can practice any religion you choose,but it's against the law to try to convert anyone. Saves a whole heap of trouble. Live and let live ,sounds good to me.
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Well hello to everyone ! This is a day that God has made and takes us closer to the one we should Love first before anything else . He is the ONE that helped us to be where we are now , finding that special Lady , that he wants us to have . Fate / Destiny to lead us to that " Special " one , will not work without having Faith in the Lord ... to answer our prayer's . He can only bless us , if we ask for his help . As I was send on this Journey to find my wife Qing , I also realized that after my first wife passed away , her Love toward's me did not die with her . I can still feel it ... if not more so ... now .
Love will never die , Love will never fail , because Love is God . He , who lives with Love in his/ her Heart , will also live with God in his/her Love . Amen .
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Your welcome and thanks Mike , that makes me feel good .
God works in strange way's , to bring his children closer to him . I was never closer to God , than I am now . I could have given up , when my Wife of 30 year's left me , because it was time to go HOME to the Lord . But instead , her love toward's me , which in turn magnified my love toward's her , send me on this path to celebrate our 30th Anniversary someplace special . I might be going alone , but I'm not alone , if you know what I mean ? This is how it all started for me , one thing lead to another and having Faith and my believe in God , I pretty much just followed where he was guiding me . Some could call this all coincidences which followed , but I know it was all planned this way already for me ahead of time . I can see it , because you must believe to see it . Same goes for little miracles , one will not recognize them without believing in the Lord . I have seen many throughout the last two years . I been blessed twice with a wonderful Wife and I thank the Lord for it ... daily .
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I'm not even going to make comment on this but wanted to know what others thought of it. On a TV show "Cheaters" for those that haven't seen it, it is a real reality show. Cheating partners are followed by PI's and a few weeks after they are "Caught" and confronted by their mate. So this is the story. A girlfriend is caught cheating with another guy. Having sex at a car wash and other places of connivance. She gets out of the car cursing up a storm at the boyfriend. I mean cursing so much every other word was a beep. Her excuse is "She's been saved by Jesus so Beep you"
So was she?
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Well...Holy beep. That is un beep beep beep.
And that's all I have to say on that issue Vince.
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Hi guys,
So, I have been reading the threads on this site and learning a lot. Early this morning I joined but have not had any comments to make until now. Why would I jump into the fire as an introduction to all of you? Not sure I can answer that one so here it goes.
I am a Christian and have pastored a church in the past. It has been my observation over the years that those who are as you say "holier than thou," have issues beyond their spiritual relationship with God. People who really are Christians do not think of themselves as better or holier than anyone. Most consider themselves as on a journey in relationship with God. Their personal focus is on becoming more Christ like and realize they are far from perfect. As a pastor I find myself on the same journey and know I am far from perfect. I am not worth of God's grace but the beautiful thing is that God gives it to me or anyone for that matter for free. If you do not believe me when I say I am not perfect, then look at the thread on chnlove under experienced member the zodiac thread. I responded about 4am or 5am, not quite awake and I called a person an ass for his response. I am not proud of it but I am also not perfect by any means.
Christians are under a mandate to spread the gospel of Jesus to the whole world. How one does it makes the difference. I do not believe in sharing the message with a person who is resistant to what I am saying. I ask first and they say no then I stop. I would rather live it by example anyway. There are people who have asked ask me what is different about me.
I have struggled with with responding to a Buddhist and have not to this point. I am talking with an unbelievable woman who lists herself as an agnostic. We have talked about religion a little but then she has asked what exactly I believe. That is an open door and I am working on exactly what I want to say. What I say will be done so with ease and without judgment. I will send it to her by mail and in Chinese.
We are all people looking for a better life whether we believe in Christ or not.
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Hi shaun, I'm not sure how I came across in the posts but I don't have a problem with any religion Christian or other. I'm not out to change anyone either. What gets to me is some that call themselves Christian and they have no idea what they are taking about or they push it onto people.
Here's an example: I did roof and window sales. I went to an appointment and as I was talking about the windows they brought up religion. A few moments later they insisted I join them in prayer? I didn't resist or make a fuss I let them do their thing and left. They didn't want windows they just wanted to save a soul. But this wasted my time and there was no income to me.
Another example a woman at a school I attended recently. She was in her mid 30's and had a thing for the black 19 year old who was a friend of mine. They went out and while dating she use to bring up at lunch we are all going to hell except her? Because she believed? She said these things knowing I wouldn't keep my mouth shut. But to make a long story short. She said so often we were going to hell but she was the one that was married to one, engaged to another and dating my friend?
These people irritate me. They have no right to push religion on others when they are in worse shape then who they think they are saving. Sort of a Do as I say, Not as I do.
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The world now has a new manmade god in addition to the other three manmade gods Yahweh, Jesus and Allah.
His name is - Big Pharma -
his angels are: Caldaron, Obama, Brown, UN, WHO, CDC, Dr. Chan, Rumsfeld and others in the pharma business.
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The world now has a new manmade god in addition to the other three manmade gods Yahweh, Jesus and Allah.
His name is - Big Pharma -
his angels are: Caldaron, Obama, Brown, UN, WHO, CDC, Dr. Chan, Rumsfeld and others in the pharma business.
I don’t believe in any religion, but I’m wondering whether you don't think it’s pretty rude to talk about the God that the brothers here worship reverently, in that way? It does seem that way to me, and I think that if you’re going to be welcome around here, you should be more careful about what you write. A lot of the people I respect are Christians and Muslims and Jews and I would never speak about their Lord and God in that way.
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I was raised a Catholic and had over the years lost my religion, I had met a wonderful woman and we fell in love, were married, we each have a child from a previous marriage and now are expecting one as she calls it " of mixed blood ", we just had a very bad scare about the baby and my sweety, my point here is that I found myself at the chaple at the hospital on my knees asking God not to do this to her, she really wants this child as much as I do, about three hours later they found me and told me they were going to keep her for a couple of days to watch her but that she and the baby were doing very well, I beleive I have returned to my God.
By the way, she is a Buddhist and says she doesn't mind, we will need all the help we can get, have I ever told you guys that I really love this woman:icon_biggrin:
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As you say Danny: I don’t believe in any religion …
In which case you may have the idea that the three Gods came about by evolution.
Biology developmental process: the natural or artificially induced process by which new and different organisms develop as a result of changes in genetic material.
People that are religious, and have done in-depth study of the subject understand that religions are man-made. Or they leave the in-depth study to the religion’s leader(s) and refer to themselves, like Mike does, as, “Christian” - relating to Christianity: relating to belonging to or maintained by a Christian organization, especially a church.
A person taking offense shows not having in-depth understanding of religion.
Seeing today 8 June 2009 is Thomas Paine’s 200th anniversary allow me to put down what he said:
“I do not believe,” he wrote, “in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.”
As for Big Pharma, they are now a God
Sarkozy’s Secret Plan for Mandatory Swine Flu Vaccination
The French Government is developing secret plans to impose mandatory vaccination of the entire French population, allegedly against possible Swine Flu disease according to reports leaked in a French newspaper. The plan is without precedent and even defies recommended public health advice. Pharmaceutical giants benefit from the move, as the Swine Flu increases the trend to militarization of public health and use of needless population panic to advance the agenda.
Drug giants gearing up
The situation is becoming a golden harvest for the giant pharmaceutical makers as they begin producing possible vaccines as well as so-called antiviral drugs like Tamiflu.
Information from within the World Health Organization in Geneva, the UN organization supposedly monitoring global health dangers, WHO Director-General Margaret Chan plans to declare a Phase 6 Official Pandemic Alert in the coming days. This bizarre act if declared would come at a time that the country which had to date reported far the latest number of suspected H1N1 cases, the USA, has simply arbitrarily stopped reporting new cases.
For Danny’s info. In Australia for mandatory vacination the government has ordered 10 million doses of a new vaccine being developed by CSL. CSL plans to start producing a new vaccine in the next days that can be used for human testing. A vaccine based on the California strain of the virus is being tested in ferrets.
For you in China. China says that it will have samples of swine flu on hand by June 2009 and plans to start manufacturing a new A/H1N1 vaccine in July 2009.
Many drug makers are using techniques of genetic manipulation to produce their new vaccine offerings in a race to market. The Maryland drug maker Novavax which reported severe annual income losses prior to the current Swine Flu scare, now is preparing a genetically modified vaccine they claim is suitable for H1N1 flu.
Sincerely,
DrFransBRoosPHD
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A person taking offense shows not having in-depth understanding of religion.
No worries Frans. I may have jumped to conclusions. It just seemed to me you were mocking the beliefs of some of the members here. If that wasn't your intention, my apologies for making the accusation.
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Thanks for your reply. I understand where you are coming from. My natural tendency is to talk way too much so my goal was to keep it short. There was one comment I didn't make but will now.
I am sure this concept is true of all religions but will address Christianity specifically. It has been my observation over many years that there are 3 types of Christians. The first type is the person who is looking for a life changing relationship with God. He/she devotes themselves to reading the bible, praying, and reaching out to others in a non-threatening way. These people you seldom hear about because they are humble and work in fulfilling the call of God in their life without fanfare. The second is somewhat like the first in that they may poses some or all of the relationship aspect with God but rather than being humble and quietly go about doing God's work they can either be quite visible and caring of others or be loud abrasive but well intentioned. Some may have quite a bit of knowledge while others are in the process of gaining knowledge. The abrasive ones in general are gaining knowledge can sometimes give Christianity a bad name but as they mature will more than likely be much less abrasive. The third kind claim Christianity but have absolutely no substance in their life that would be evidence of their claim. They may go to church every Sunday but on Monday they may cuss, drink, smoke, chase women or men for that matter. These are the ones that give Christianity a bad name and will more than likely condemn others. Unfortunately the world quite often groups us all together but believe me there is a difference.
Vince I hope that clears things up a little and in no way was I concerned about what you said. I just wanted to bring a little clarity to the subject.
You guys are great and informative. I spent 4 hours reading posts this morning. Man time flies. I look forward to talking and sharing with you all. And please, you do not have to conform to my views or watch how you talk because I am a Christian. I am a normal guy who likes to do guy things and am looking for a woman that I can fall madly in love with and spend the rest of my life with. So, what you do or say is between you and God NOT between you and me.
oops it was too long again!!!!!!
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Shaun as you can tell I don't have a problem expressing myself to anybody. I think this is my forte when talking to most people. :icon_biggrin:
I won't even go into close relationships made with others seeing this in me and talking to me honestly about themselves as well. Men, women, gays, lesbian, black, white, spanish, whoever and I wouldn't trade any of the friendships made for any reason. I don't see myself as a christian, but I believe this is the true christian way. Love everyone, and do onto others....
It is probable to break it down to the three types. It seemed like a good assessment. There is nothing I can do to change everyone on this earth to get along better. It's only been thousands of years of aggression? :s Whatever brings a person to be peaceful within themselves, I approve of and happy for.
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Seeing you guys are involving yourself with Chinese ladies bringing you in contact with Buddhism, following is in a nutshell. More detail information runs into many pages which I do not want to take upon me to put in this forum.
Buddhism is not a religion, it has no god or prophet and no heaven or hell, it is a philosophy, the religion is Brahmin.
As with all religions, humans have tampered with it to make it obtain whatever they are after. In Los Angeles, Wilshire and Santa Monica Blvd. there is an expensive looking American monks operated Buddhist Temple where they even sing Psalms. Buddha never got involved in Psalms singing. In Bangkok there is a sect that has a man made mount on its property on which the devotees place Buddha statues bought from the sect, the larger the amount of money the higher the statue is placed on the mount. That is not a Buddha principle. The sect is shunned by the other Buddhists. Buddha in his life strictly forbid his disciples making amulets and statues. In Thailand amulet making is a thriving business with the devotees paying substantive amounts of money for them.
Buddha’s problems were with the Brahman priest not following the Brahman script and using and destroying the environment for their own desires.
To make themselves important in the eyes of the laypeople the Brahmin priest made it difficult for the laypeople to understand their hocus-pocus and follow their commands.
Buddha made things easy for the laypeople.
Buddha started with the Five Precepts, listed here, as generally recognized by most Buddhist, though they’re expressed in a variety of forms. They are not commandments but descriptions of the moral stance that would necessarily be taken by one who is on the path to Awakening.
1. A follower of the Way does not kill.
2. A follower of the Way does not take what is not given.
3. A follower of the Way does not abuse the senses.
4. A follower of the Way does not speak deceptively.
5. A follower of the Way does not intoxicate oneself or others.
For the ones desiring a higher level of knowledge i.e. monks there are additional precepts in Buddhism.
Do not lump all Buddhist together.
Theravada is in: Ceylon, Burma, Thailand, Laos, and Cambodia (Language: Pali)
Mahayana is traditionally found in China, Japan, and Vietnam (Language: Sanskrit)
Mahayana differs among other from Theravada in its acceptance of the ability of spiritually advanced personalities to directly assist the spiritual enlightenment of others by acts of grace. In contrast, salvation in Theravada is a wholly individual (monks only) attained condition.
Presented with the hope it will help in your dealings with the ladies in China.
Sincerely,
DrFransBRoosPHD
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I like to post today's Blog of mine here , because of my believe in God showing me the way at all times and this week was no exception .
Saturday, June 13, 2009
Do our Lifes change other People's Lifes ?
I of course must answer this with a big YES .
This is a Photo of my late Wife ( Nancy ) , and being married to this Lady , for almost 30 year's . I have sure learned a lot , not only how to treat a Lady but also how to be a better Man all together . She was actually the first Woman that I ever been Intimate with . So in other word's , whatever I know about Women , I have learned pretty much from Her . I was 24 when we first met and we both were driving a blue '69 VW Beetle at the time . So me being a German Car Technician , I say She had it made ... repair-wise , keeping her car in shape . We also had many things in common , like Qing and Me now . The only thing not in common , was She had seven Children already , when we met . Goes to show how deep Love can go , as it did not matter one bid . Being a great Wife all those year's , she has changed many Life's for the better , not to mention mine .
As I talked about this many times , the Lord and Her send me on the Journey to find my Wife " Qing " after she had passed away . Before she died , she was very worried about me and how I would be able to move on without her , she took care of so many thing around the House and outside the House . Which of course I see now , what all she had been doing , needing to do all myself now .
Feeling her Love , even after she was gone ( Physically ) , I knew she wanted me to be taken care off . This is why , I was send to .. off all places .. halfway around the world again , just as the first time meeting her , from all the way from Germany . So , two Wife's and twice I had to go 8000 miles to find them . Yeah ... it's something , isn't it ?
Anyhow , so now having me changed , now as it happens , she is doing it again . How , you want to know ?
Yesterday at work , I ran into a Lady Customer , which loves to talk your Ear off . But after finding out she has lost her Husband of 40 some year's and he did not leave Her anything to live on , including there House , which the Children took over and moved good ole Mom , into a corner of the House , a little bigger than a Closet . Is that the thanks she get's from being a Wife and Mother for all those year's ? So her car needing a few repair's and which are not cheap ( over $ 1000 ) . As she is scrambling to make a Living , I had not yet taken all my late Wife's clothes to the Goodwill yet . This is where it get's interesting . This Lady is exactly the same size ( 5'2" and about 180 lb. ) as Nancy was in her last year's . Makes me wonder , has the Lord ... make me wait and hold on to those Clothes , because somebody is going to come along who need's them badly ? Of the same size ? Feeling sorry for this Lady , I of course offered to bring all the clothes (ten large bag's ) and that she can go through all of them and see what she likes and the rest I will take to Goodwill . See ... it's me in a way changing this Lady's Life and make it a little more bearable , but the one that really changes her Life is my Nancy , even only being here in Spirit . That not only makes the Lady feel special , but me also . All thanks to my lovely and thoughtful late Wife , that taught me to be that way too .
Now being married to an even more lovely and wonderful Lady , I will surely put my teaching's to work and Love and Respect " Qing " much .. much more .
Love does make the World go around , as hatred only put's on the brakes and does no good at all . So , I actually can not wait till Monday and give this Lady the Clothes to choose from .
God , has shown me the way to Love and I will pass it on .
Posted by Shanghai MiFeng at 2:19 PM
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This has become one of our most liked song in our home, even our daughter Lili wants to learn this on the flute, it is even song in my mother language, Mike MPO you may like this also
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvYIjFtPQEk
Enjoy, we do.
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That is so beautiful to listen to . I have alway's had the most respect for the American Indian , for what was done to them .
Amazing Grace , was a Song my late Wife wanted to be play'd at her Funeral . So , I went and ordered a Bagpipe Player throughout the Service . People loved it , and I'm sure my late Wife loved it even more .
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Arnold, I hope that this has been a good memory for you my friend, Amazing Grace was song this way at my Fathers grave by a 12 year old tribal member, she had the most beautiful voice, I still remember and tear up at this song, it's a good memory, as is the one of my Grand Father and Father waking every day and saying " This is a good day to die ", I never understood until my Father had passed what it was they meant.
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When my dad was asked what song he would want at his funeral he said "I'll be seeing you" and so, he got it.
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" This is a good day to die "
Funny you bring this up Michael . The Morning of the day my Wife passed away , she knew it was her last day on Earth . I tell you why .
About four year's back , for my Wife's birthday , one of our Neighbor's gave her a necklace with a Cross . She wore this everyday since . That morning , she took it off her neck and handed it to me and told me to give it to my neighbor's Daughter which was 5 at that time , because my Wife alway's concidered the little Girl her adopted child . You see , when the time comes .. they know . She passed away in the Afternoon in my Arms .
Yes Michael they are good memories , but hard to handle most of the time . You know what I mean .
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Amen to that brother Mike
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OK Where to start? If said and it was written into the Bible that only God will be called Father? Then it wouldn't be used anywhere else. In the church or as a father of children. So There is a passage (Old Testament) saying not to call God by his name. BTW God, isn't his name so when followed by damn why do people run for the hills? Does anyone know his name? His real name? They named a city after it in the middle east.
The Bible. Actuate? Depends on your meaning of actuate. Old Testament? Not really. It's more of a guild to. The story of Noah and the ark was a story a 1000 years old before it was put into the bible. And they changed the name, it wasn't Noah.
The finding of the dead sea scrolls showed how close the bible was written to the original writings, But also showed things that were taken out prior to the editing of the Catholic Church. Which brings it back to Father. The Catholic Church wanted domination over the parish and at the beginning you prayed to the father (Priest) and he prayed for you to Jesus and God.
All of this is well documented from findings and research even the Catholic Church bought up some just to keep quiet what they did in the beginning.
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Sorry you have to do better then these links.
Link #1 - Rubbish, just rubbish. Fulfilled Prophecies
For example, Daniel the prophet predicted in about 538 BC (Daniel 9:24-27) that Christ would come as Israel's promised Savior and Prince 483 years after the Persian emperor would give the Jews authority to rebuild Jerusalem, which was then in ruins. This was clearly and definitely fulfilled, hundreds of years later.
Show me the words that Daniel wrote JESUS CHRIST was the name. In fact show me anything that Daniel was a prophet. What was said was a man will come forth and bring peace throughout the world. They named this man the "Messiah" which is believed to never had come. Some believe it was Christ? Another point - "Jews authority to rebuild Jerusalem" A slid of word here. Not Jerusalem, the Temple in Jerusalem. See how the word changed. BTW The temple was destroyed again. 3 times. The remaining is what is called "The Wailing Wall"
Scientific Accuracy - More Rubbish. Greeks wrote about it for centuries before.
Link #2 - Oh yeah Buy my DVD for proof?
By the way, if you would like some reference materials that are a little more portable than a computer with an Internet connection, a book we recommend is Know Why You Believe by Paul Little. This book is available in larger bookstores and most Christian bookstores. Also, the Tucson Community Church recorded a seminar called “Knowing The Facts Behind The Faith.” It is available on DVD and VHS video (NTSC format). If you are interested in purchasing a copy, you can get one directly from the church that produces them at the Tucson Community Church website. They also handle international orders.
Link #3 - He goes along pretty good and then boom out to lunch. Half of what he says is right. Near the end he has...
The more one studies without bias the teachings found in the Bible, the more he or she will see that they conform to the truths of experience and human nature. It is just as powerful to the lives of people today as to those thousands of years ago.
"truths of experience and human nature." Now that's a point.
Lets see what words are true. Which is what started this trend.
Many times in the Old Testament we see the life span of humans reaching great ages. Many as old as 900 years.
The Bible tells us that: Adam lived 930 years. (Genesis 5:5), Seth lived 912 years.(Genesis 5:8), Methuselah lived 969 years.(Genesis 5:27), And Noah lived 950 years. (Genesis 9:29), Many people wonder how, or if this is possible.
If you tell me this is true because it's in the bible I will say... How did they count years? To be 900 Years old means 12 months in a years calendar? Right? Which was developed and used by? WHO? The Romans. I don't think Adam and the rest used the Roman calendar before the Romans made it.
This shows you can not go by every word the Bible has. So back to the beginning the word "FATHER" might not be the correct word given.
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Wow, I haven't looked at this thread in a couple of days. So much to say and so little time.
Vince, I can appreciate where you are coming from but there are several things you might consider. First is that we can find all kinds of things in and about the bible to disagree about, all day long. I find that most people are articulate and scholarly on the positions they choose to support. Authintication is important but sometime you need to authenticate the authinticator, if you know what I mean. You can find that to be true on both sides of the fence. When most scholars try to sort through the mound of information to come up with the "truth" it is often that they lean heavily toward those who already support their own position. With the amount of information at our disposal today it is difficult to sort through the minutia of information to find the actual "truth."
When I was trying to sort a lot of this out for myself one of the things I did was to construct a biblical timeline of the bible simply based on what it said without other scholars trying to support their point of view. What began to emerge out of that was fascinating to me. The first thing I discovered, was that it was physically possible for Adam to know Noah's father. There were eleven generations alive at one time. Now, did they actually know each other? The bible does not tell us but the possibility existed because they were alive at the same time for several years. This is an issue that cannot be proved or dis-proved but again was possible. Sometimes that is all we have to work with.
It is kind of like evolution. For those who believe in it they do so with no physical evidence. If evolution is true it is something that has taken place over billions and billions of years but it moves so slow we cannot see any evidence of it happening right now. So in both cases based on the merit of the arguments one must take a leap of faith to believe. However with bible there are consistencies that are in harmony with each other boy differing composers that did not know each other.
The second thing I discovered is that because of the intellectual progress of man at the time of periods in question is that there are great holes that can be filled with anything you would like to put into it. What I found helpful was just using the bible and basing it just what was written. At the same time, which is going to sound contradictory but, I would try to get into the period of time that they were writing about and used simple logic not influenced by other opinions. It can be dangerous to do that but if you discipline your self to be consistent with the document that you are reading it is possible to develop a reasonable assumption.
What one has to do though, is stick to the known things written and not major on the things you conjure up. For example someone once asked me a couple of questions trying to stump me and refute the bible. He asked, "are Adam and Eve the only people God created?" My answer was "yes." He asked, "and they had three sons, Cain, Abel, and Seth?" and again my answer was "yes." Then, with a wry smile he asked, "Then who did Cain marry?" I thought for a minute and then said, "His sister." You should have seen the look on his face. He said, "But that isn't in the bible," to which my reply was "there are a lot of things that are not in the bible but happened none the less and if you look at how the bible was written, early on female children were in general not recorded unless there was something notable of significant about them." So, in the case of Cain marrying his sister. Is it there? No. Is it plausible? Yes.
I said all that to say this. There is more evidence to the all of the stories and ideas in the bible than there are things that cannot be supported. Because of this it is possible to say the bible is true and can be trusted. I cannot say that is true about man and quite often the issues and hangups we have about the bible are man related not God related.
Did I step on too many toes? I hope not. I hope no one takes offence either. I tried to frame this in a way that would cause discussion rather than anger or division.
Shaun
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"Then who did Cain marry?" I thought for a minute and then said, "His sister." You should have seen the look on his face. He said, "But that isn't in the bible," to which my reply was "there are a lot of things that are not in the bible but happened none the less and if you look at how the bible was written, early on female children were in general not recorded unless there was something notable of significant about them." So, in the case of Cain marrying his sister. Is it there? No.
I read recently (Commented and didn't believe this guy) wrote that Cain married a creature. Stating that there were other humans not created by God and were considered creatures? Just a FYI minute.:icon_biggrin:
Yes, I know of the women not being noted. This was one of the first questions I had way back in the 70's. BTW I can't recite verses like I use to. I haven't read the bible in maybe 20 years so I'm working off memory. The old 5" floppy in my brain.
But Shaun you kind of made the point I was making. You can't take the writings word for word as what was said and happen. Cain married? and there is a big mystery about that. Because nothing is said of who. So if you take the words of the writings he married? a woman. If it was his sister, a creature, or a wombat? The answer is what you think it is.
Mike, Sorry, you can believe what you want. But I can't bring myself to believe that these men lived over 900 years. Yes they could have counted seasons? But maybe they counted Months and someone slipped in the word year? How does anyone know for sure? But it makes more sense then they lived 900+ years.
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Vince,
Has your father or uncle or cousin ever told you that you were wrong when you told a family story that they knew also? Did they tell you the way it really happened?
The problem with our thinking is that we think from our perspective. We have so much to entertain us now. All they had was stories. If you got it wrong you would hear about it. Say it isn't so. In every family and every tribe there were historians who kept the family history. It is the same today. Only difference was there were more generations around to tell you what actually happened. From Adam to Noah is 10 generations. From Noah to Moses is 14 to 16 generations if I remember correctly. 1000 years? Maybe longer. Moses thought he should write it down to preserve. There were too many people to say yes or no to the stories. It has only been in modern time that people question the validity of what was written. But then again how much do we see that we forget because of technology. At issue is not what is written but the gaps or holes. Too many people have put in unbelievable stories in the gaps over the years.
You mentioned the dead sea scrolls. What do you really know about them. There were only a few found that were considered scripture and the findings of those who compared them was no negligible difference from the oldest writings they had prior to the newly found scrolls. The experts testified that the rest was not scripture. The dead sea scrolls were around 2000 years older if memory serves me.
The catholics edited the bible? King James commissioned the editing of the bible. The commissions, we'll call it that because it is late and my mind is turning to mush right now, charge was make the bible like King James wanted it to read. They instead removed known errors and edited books out that were in conflict with the whole entire bible. i.e. and this not actual but with mush mind I will explain it this way. An example would be like you and your goat will be saved. Duh!
Please do not take this next comment personal but you disqualified yourself when you said you have not read the bible in 20 years. How do experts tell when something is fake? By studying the authentic. That is how the Bible was edited. How does an art expert tell when a Rembrandt is fake he/she knows the authentic intimately.
This was a good dialog and I hope you feel the same. More later maybe.
Shaun
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Mike, why? do you say this?
"accept it, all of it, and for the parts I did not understand, exercise faith OR reject it, and turn my back on God .... never look to Him for anything, never think about it again"
Reject it, and turn my back on God? This is not what I'm saying at all. By having questions on the Bible does not mean to turn your back on God. It is questioning the words of Man. Look around you. It's nothing new it's been going on for many years. Humans change, distort, misrepresent the facts. How big was that fish you caught?
How many people today say God talked to them and told them to? Why don't we believe them? When the writings are camouflaged and you don't see it? You lay blame on the messenger. Jesus was portrayed as a peaceful man. When he went into the temple and saw dealings going on (todays flea market) he angered and turned tables over and chased people out. Maybe this wasn't the first time this happen? but it was the only time that was written.
God's Name: The name of God originally appeared in the Hebrew language as ???? which many feel was pronounced Yahweh. The English or anglicised form is Jehovah.
Interestingly, the name in Hebrew ???? appears over 7000 times. It was substituted for the titles LORD and GOD in translations of the Bible. There was a superstition that arose amoung the Jews and later adopted by others that the name was too sacred to be uttered or even written. Because of this, early translators stopped translating the divine name and opted to use the impersonal designations LORD and GOD.
Shaun, We are on the same page. Just approaching it from a different direction. I'll qualified myself again. :icon_biggrin: I may have not read the Bible in 20 years, but there were 20 years before that, that I did. I believe nothings changed in it since then. I don't consider myself an expert. Just informative. If you (or I) go to a spiritual leader and ask a question? They don't have the answer and will come up with it's Devil talk and thinking that way sends you to hell? Yeah well I guess I'll see you there. (Not you, lol) He can't give an honest answer? But that Rolex sure looks good on him.
In reading the bible I found myself saying, huh! what? This doesn't make sense? Didn't it say on page ? not to and here it say to do? This started the quest. As for the Rembrandt. I went out with an artist. I learned the difference in paintings and I can tell an American from a European and an Asian. I'm no expert there either but if you know the real thing you don't need it to compare each painting you look at.
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No I don't know the name, Nicky Cruz.
But I did know (not personally) Dr. D. James Kennedy. Shaun had brought up the words evolution, "For those who believe in it they do so with no physical evidence". I am going to take this as evolution of mankind? But Dr Kennedy said this same thing and he was wrong. What he said was there is no proof of evolution of any kind? Yes there is, in fossils, and other findings. As for humans there is too. That's how we know people were not as tall as we are today. This a two faced sword. They say evolution never happen just because there is a missing link. But on the other hand they say to believe the bible story genesis with the only proof of the same. Because it's written.
The genesis story is written and the story of evolution is also written maybe not in the bible? But it is also written. Neither can be proven currently but there is more proof of evolution then there is of Adam & Eve.
All of this can and will be debated till we are gone off this earth and will continue after. I don't expect to win, and what would I win anyway? All I am saying is the bible has had many hands in it. Use it as a guild to living life. Believe there is a superior being that created it all. But don't take every word as law. The words have been changed from the original text to be more understandable to us. When a word like Father is taken only to be used for God? What happens when your child gives you a Fathers Day card? Do you screech at them this word is only for God? You'll have one screwed up kid if you do.
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Each Person's life is multifaceted, and we should trust the power of God and his Angel's to give us every opportunitiy we need to succeed. Our part is to seek to improve ourselves and , about all , to love other's more fully . By Praying for guidance and letting love rule our Heart's and Mind's each day ,we will eventually accomplish our many purposes .
The Ripple Effect ( Betty J. Eadie ) My Work of Faith is a Labor of Love .
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He asked, "are Adam and Eve the only people God created?" My answer was "yes." He asked, "and they had three sons, Cain, Abel, and Seth?" and again my answer was "yes." Then, with a wry smile he asked, "Then who did Cain marry?" I thought for a minute and then said, "His sister." You should have seen the look on his face. He said, "But that isn't in the bible," to which my reply was "there are a lot of things that are not in the bible but happened none the less
Sorry but your answer "there are a lot of things that are not in the bible but happened none the less can be used to refute your answer to God only creating Adam & Eve. Maybe God created more people than just Adam and Eve and it wasn't recorded in the bible. The Bible was created and put together many years after the stories. No one really know how many stories were lost in antiquity that could have become a part of the Bible. From what I have learned, the book of Revelation barely made it into the Bible. So I am always confounded when the Bible is talked about as being complete. After all the early part of the Bible is also the early history of the Jews people. Many other cultures have similar stories of creation.
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I see here that there are many yrains of thought on what religion is, let say this, there are many things that are the same in all religions for it all to be untrue, we all know or heard of the ten commandments, well I will tell you as my grandfather told me as was told by his grandfather to him,
1) The earth is our Mother, care for her.
2) honor all your relations.
3) Open your heart and soul to the Great Spirit.
4) All life is sacred; treat all beings with respect.
5) Take from the earth what is needed and nothing more.
6) Do what needs to be done for the good of all.
7) Give constant thanks to the Great Spirit for each day.
8) Speak the truth; but only of the good in others.
9) Follow the rhythms of nature.
10) Enjoy life's journey, but leave no tracks.
My Grandfather was born in 1864 and died 1977 when he was 113 years old, he followed these 10 laws and he lived a long and full life, he made my Father when he was 86 years old ( yeah wierd to me too) and my dad had 32 brothers and sisters, and yeah family reunions are a bit much.
Anyway what I am saying is there are many different types of religions and beliefs but they all seem to say almost the same thing, so I think we are all right, it's the way we as individuals perceive what we read or hear.
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MM I'm stealing your Great Great Grandfathers commandments. I like them that much. Some family you have there? :icon_cool:
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MM now you sound like you have some Native American blood in you, as I have many friends back home in the different tribes that say much the same things about life and the Great Spirit, even if us whites when we came to the west tried to screw things up and belived they were heathens and needed to be exterminated, and to this day I have many friends that tell me I like you but I can never trust you because you are a white man, and as I look at the history I can understand this, the tribes and members I have met, are the Shoshone, the Blackfeet, the Sioux, the Crow and the Nex Perce, and all of them have much the same Great Spirit, and basically the same concepts, with just slight variations to your great gandfathers philosophy about life
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Hi guys, Lets stir the pot a little.
Vince in reference to your comment on evolution and fossils. Yes there are fossils but there isn't a single transitional fossil on record. I have been to Glen Rose, Texas to see the next bit of information personally. What is significant about Glen Rose is fossil records and human foot prints inside of dinosaur footprints. The significance is the fossils show that dinosaurs and man existed at the same time and have been dated to thousands of years ago not millions. This information can be found at http://www.creationism.org/cem/.
You mentioned that our biblical views are are similar. Really they are not. I believe the bible is the word of God without question. There is too much evidence to support my claim. Many scholars have gone to great lengths to authinicate its accuracy. I know many people, like you, struggle because it was along time before there was a written record of events. I have demonstrated how it is possible that we can trust the record we have written by Moses. I do fill in gaps with my own interpretation but when I communicate God's word it is simply God's word. If I share my interpretation I will say it is mine and may not be factual. There is one thought process I have left out.
To deny that the bible is the written word as God had intended in the final analysis is to deny the authority and existence of God. If God or if you prefer the Hebrew way of saying it Yahweh, is the divine creator of the universe, who created mankind, then why is He incapible of communicating His word accurately, in written form. The kind of belief you have in the bible as a guide seems pointless and a waste of time if you ask me if man could distort the bible. Please understand this is my opinion. Now do I believe people can verbally distort the bible? Yes. You see it all the time. But the bible or the written word is quite different.
Rhonald you mentioned that the book of Revelation barely made it into the bible. Well, there were 9 books of Revelation written. The one in the bible is the only one that was consistent with the character and nature of who God is.
Guys, we can debate all of this until Jesus returns and you will have your opinion and I will have mine. Again as I said in a previous post, in general when people study materials in the bible they usually look for opinions that support what they already believe and discount things they do not as trivial. My studies were to seek the truth with out a pre-determined outcome.
The idea here is to talk and debate but we should shake hands and be friends at the end of the discussion. Lets just hope we can all agree to disagree and still support each other. After all, we have a bond here that is unique, in the nature of the person we are looking to share the rest of our life with.
The opinions of the writer of this post do not necessarily represent the opinions of this web-site and its members and should not be taken that way. For the next 60 seconds we will be conducting a test of the emergency broadcasting system...... :icon_cheesygrin:
Enjoy men and blessing to each one of you,
Shaun
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Mike,
First let me say agree or disagree? I won't be getting pissed off at you or anybody. It's just an open discussion though religion is a rough subject to talk about. But that's part of it. People believe different things. Just can't hold it against them.
adaptations can result in a monkey turning into a camel, or a rhino turning into a kangaroo.... that is way off base
Yeah I would say that too. But there are alligators and Crocs, whales, many of the birds all evolved that's FACT not theory. And I do know of Ben Stein's book. Watched an interview he had about it.
A couple of months ago I watched a science show that had a few small sized human remains found (near Asia in fact). They went on with how humans traveled out of Africa and into other areas? I'm not sure what I think of this? I don't believe in all of this but it's on the same list as Adam and Eve. On hold in beliefs. Hey, there's always the alien possibility?
Shaun, I was on the phone most of the night and when I got to post your post showed so I did not see it till after. But like I stated above. I hold no one to the subject. It won't make me dislike anyone for having a different opinion then mine. This I wish the rest of the world would do.
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Ya know I saw something on this or about this recent. I don't recall? that's how much I payed attention to it or believed it. lol I do remember having a good laugh.
Speaking of the book of Revelation? It was a dream basically. When it is compared to modern times there is always symbolism involved. How many people were said to be the bad boy with the 666 because his name had counted out that way. Or the 4 horsemen could be??? If there are comparisons and could be's then the Words in the bible are not literal? Just making a point.
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MM I'm stealing your Great Great Grandfathers commandments. I like them that much. Some family you have there? :icon_cool:
MM now you sound like you have some Native American blood in you, as I have many friends back home in the different tribes that say much the same things about life and the Great Spirit, even if us whites when we came to the west tried to screw things up and belived they were heathens and needed to be exterminated, and to this day I have many friends that tell me I like you but I can never trust you because you are a white man, and as I look at the history I can understand this, the tribes and members I have met, are the Shoshone, the Blackfeet, the Sioux, the Crow and the Nex Perce, and all of them have much the same Great Spirit, and basically the same concepts, with just slight variations to your great gandfathers philosophy about life
Vince, you are more then welcome to use them, my Grandfather would be honored.
yeah the family is a small tribe in and of it's self Hehehe!!!, we hold family reunions at a state park.
Norb Smith, yes I am, I have from my Moms side Irish and Blackfoot, and from my Fathers side Cheyenne and Cherokee, I remember my great Grandfather saying that he trusted the buffalo soldier more the the pinda licoyea ( white man ).
but the Great spirit made no man better then any other and that was from my Dad.
Those are all great tribes and nations, and I have learned to hold no man responsible for what his Government has done unless that man comes to me with war.
It's funny. if you were to see me you would think I was just Irish, but hey its all good.
Maybe some day we will meet at a Pow Wow, one never knows.
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Hi guys, Lets stir the pot a little.
What is significant about Glen Rose is fossil records and human foot prints inside of dinosaur footprints. The significance is the fossils show that dinosaurs and man existed at the same time and have been dated to thousands of years ago not millions. This information can be found at http://www.creationism.org/cem/.
To deny that the bible is the written word as God had intended in the final analysis is to deny the authority and existence of God. Now do I believe people can verbally distort the bible? Yes. You see it all the time. But the bible or the written word is quite different.
Shaun
I studied anthropology in school and the human footprints dating with dinosaurs is something I never heard of. Sorry but dinosaurs lived millions of years ago. I believe the science. I am agnostic in my views so I am still open to possibilities. But to say that you have to believe in the bible inorder to believe in God I find hard to swallow. After all the Jews believe in the old testament ( not the new), The Muslims believe the new testament was inspired by Jesus ( but as a prophet not the son of God) and these two other religions believe in the same God. They just interpret his authority differently then Christians do.
My uncle is a believer and he says that maybe God used evolution as a means for creation, so he has no problem combining the two. The problem I find is when people think that the bible is the all to end all arguments. The Bible is not God, it might be an instrument of God, and it is in its use that it fullfills a purpose.
Since the bible has gone through different translations from different languages, I find it hard for others to not comprehend how distortions can creep in. Heck just look at this form where we are writing using translators for communicating to women overseas, and sometimes mistakes are made. I hear the Greek word for 'day' that was used in the six days to create the world is also a word that can mean a length of time. I hear that the bible was written in ancient Greek, modern Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew. And to have accurate translations?
As to evolution and fossil records. Why not look microscopic. Have ther not been new strains of viruses and dieases and bacterias? The problem with complex organisims is it takes a long time to see evoultion happening. But on the microscopic level, every year the flu comes back different and the vaccine of last year might not work this year. Why? because the viruses has mutated. We have intermingled plant genes to create new forms of wheat and plants. Now this is just a minor change but I do not have to stretch my mind to see how nature, over time, or even by God's hand, has caused the emergance of new species. So please, just because I question parts of the Bible, doesn't mean I refute all of it.
[I remember my great Grandfather saying that he trusted the buffalo soldier more the the pinda licoyea ( white man ).
[/quote]
I can't say north of the Border we were better (what with the wiskey traders and small pocks) But I like hearing the story of when a troop of US cavarly were sent to the border to collect a small tribe of American Indians returning to their reservation. They were meet at the border by two RCMP officers escorting about 60 Sioux. When asked where the rest of the soldiers were, the RCMP officer said," Oh he is over the hill cooking breakfast."
I liked the idea of the Great Spirit, because as I explained before, I am agnostic. I would say that I was an Atheist before( can't make any money with no prophet), but because of my journey of self discovery, including finding my new wife from Chnlove, I am open to the possibility of some life force that helps guide us with this Gift called Life.
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Believe it or not I agree with all of these quotes. First let me start off with the Jewish religion and Muslim. Muslim is a spin off of the Jewish religion. Basically it is the same. Just like I posted in an earlier post, Why is there hate for each other? (Jews and Muslim) My god is better then yours? It's the same GOD? The Muslims attack the Jews and the Jews defend themselves so I almost always side with the Jews on this.
The Jewish religion is the belief of ONE GOD. At that time people believed in multiple god's. So they started the concept of only one. To "Sell" this idea they wrote to prove this. They wrote of old stories they have learned and known of. They also wrote of the same so these stories will be carried onto other generations that followed.
Shaun had asked what I knew of the Dead Sea Scrolls? I know much of it. I know why they were there, How they got there, what is written, and how they survived all these years. It's an interesting story and way to much for me to write here but for anyone it's worth reading about.
Let me make this simple of where I'm coming from. I have problems with religions. when a leader puts spins on the bible and forces his opinion on the worshippers. Someone like this Dr. J. Kennedy. I don't recall what branch of Christianity this church was/is but it was just a few miles from here so I could check. But he always had stories that couldn't be checked for truth. Something like, years ago I talked with a scientist that admitted evolution was something he made up? Leaving out when, where, who. To me this was being deceiving more then truth. He was a very smart man, I'll give him that.
But back to where I'm coming from. I think the bible has if faults. I think some of the stories are embellished, old and new testament. But still when something goes right I look up and say Thank You. Sometimes I'll even have a talk with them and at times pray for someone's soul. Whether they hear me or not? I don't know but it makes me feel better. Like I told that girl at school who said we were all going to hell except her? I said "Someday we will see, If and when I stand before them they can judge my life" So I'll continue living my life the way I believe Jesus had told us to. That's the true Christian way. Help others, Love others, don't cheat, steal, and try to understand.
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Hi Mike,
You did a Bible quote in Chinese - do you have access to a Chinese Bible? I know that there was a problem a few years ago with Bibles having to be smuggled into China - but I also know that most of the Bibles we now use in the Western World are printed in China! My lady has told me many times that she wants to become a better Christian - she knows that I go to Church every Sunday and I preach occasionally and that my online business concerns Christian/Gospel backing tracks for singers.
She does not have a bible in Chinese and maybe that would be a great gift to take to her. Any ideas on that.
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Willy, I have one somewhere. I have been looking for it so that I could send it to the woman of my interest. Several years ago while pastoring a church in a small town two Chinese men began attending. They could not speak English except a few words. We were able to find a Chinese bible with the Gideon society. Does this society exist in England? If so you can begin your search there. We had to wait a while but it was worth the wait as they were written in Mandarin and English.
Rhonald, I am a retired geophysist and was quite facinated with the Glen Rose, Texas find. It is real and you can check the references. Secondly the bible is written in Hebrew and Greek. The English texts are interpretreted from the original languages. You are right in translation there can be issues in translating from one language to another. With the access we have to materials we have today it is possible to check each and every word and how it was translated.
I know it is easy to sit here behind my computer and claim anything I choose. Also I know I am new and all of you do not know me but all of what I have written can be verified. You can cross-reference everything in the Bible at www.crosswalk.com. If you are unsure because it is the internet the books are available. I find most of what I need in garage sales.
Vince, D. James Kennedy was presbyterian. I say was because he passed away in 2007.
So that you know, I take issue with many in the Christian world especially when it come to abuse and the distortion of the word of God. On that we agree. Someone coined this phrase years ago but is is so true, God does not need our help in His kingdom, He wants it, but He doesn't need it.
I have enjoyed the discussions we have had on this thread. If I seem to to not be here as much over the next couple of weeks, my workload has increased a lot and I must focus on it more for now. So keep the debate up and I will look in from time to time and may make little comments here or there.
Blessings to all,
Shaun
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Hello all, I think this needs saying so it mays as well be me thats saying it, I am proud of all the brotherhood, we are all talking about the way we see religion and there is not one outraged person here, we are talking about one of the most fought over threads in the world, I've seen what was some of the most educated people in the world talking about religion and within an hour they were yelling and screaming at one another like a bunch of children, again I am proud to call you all my brothers.
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My religious views:
N/A
lol
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Vince,
I was re-0reading some of the posts on this tread. You mentioned knowing about the Dead Sea Scrolls. Same here. I have spent extensive time in the Dead Sea Scroll Museum in Jerusalem on two different occasions. I have actually been to some of the caves where they were found. It is quite an amazing story. Do you think they will ever put Psalm 151 in the Bible? My answer is no.
Shaun
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Well Psalm 151, is in the Hebrew Orthodox translations so I doubt it will be added at least not in our lifetime.
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This is a very interesting topic for me.
I was born Christian and raised as a Roman Catholic but since my teenage years have not attended mass apart from weddings and funerals out of principle.
Personally have a hard time believing any faith but do believe there's a certain balance to nature and life - I honestly believe for good people everything happens for a reason and most times a bad thing happens there is a good flip side just down the road, but i digress a little.
My biggest hurdle to overcome in Christian belief is the idea of heaven or hell. The idea in the "Matrix" movies that making life appear too good was not believable or desired by humans resonated strongly with me. It seems that heaven would be a pretty dull place after a while. Similarly, no matter how bad hell is surely you would become desensitized after a few eons or so.
How to reconcile this?,it seems to me that human life right now is closer to heaven than any idealised version, maybe this is heaven and we relive it over and over and get to experience all the good and bad lifestyles, pausing once in a while in the afterlife to consider the sum total of our experiences before trying a new one?(getting born again and living a new life).
Another concept that seems crazy to me is time and matter, where did all this stuff come from, and when did it start, the idea that it came from nothing seems daft to me but yet i cannot deny its existence.
So while at a certain level religion seems preposterous to me, then so does everyday life which is pretty hard to rule out the existence of!
Sorry for the rambling post, just reading some of the posts above set me to thinking about it all.
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As you guy's probably know, i don't bother much about religion, however, this has changed somewhat in the last few weeks, but won't mention why, just suffice enough to say that it has.
There is one thing that (sort of) bothers me, why are most wars and cruelty are committed in his name....
Yet in every country. in every society people still believe in one god, no matter if it's God almighty or Budda or whoever. Do you guy's think that God or whatever the idol is just 'a force from above?' or is it a 'religion' to keep the masses in some sort of control.
Please don't get me wrong I'm not down-crying anyone for their beliefs, everyone 'needs' something to believe in.
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Irish you sound just like I did when I started off. A thousand questions? Who really said what? Why is it this way? At one time I even thought of being a Priest? But I knew I like "women" to much. There is something I kind of settled on and it was also brought before me. ?? What? lol I'll explain. The American Indian (native Amer, whatever) has had a unique way of believing mother nature is the power of the earth. One day I got to sit down and talk with many "Indians" and learn from them what they believed. At the time they were running a sweat-lodge and a sit in was $500.00 for the whitie yuppies looking for trills. Befriending them I could sit in for free, anytime, as many times, but I didn't.
The difference is the people of the bible go on what was written by man. Where the Indian go by what they "Feel" is around them. It was the "christian way" that almost put an end to the indian way of life. Become a christian and we'll let you live?
So Irish and Rob, "is it a 'religion' to keep the masses in some sort of control." I suggest you lookup and read about the last of the Roman Emperors, Constantine and what he did.
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Willy,
I purchased a hard cover bible, that is dual language, one column is Chinese, and the other column is in English on each page.
I will bring it with me on my trip to share with my lady.
(http://images.eden.co.uk/300/9781860246753.jpg)
I got it here:
http://www.amazon.com/Chinese-English-Simplified-Version-Pilgrims/dp/9625131892/ref=pd_sim_b_1
looks like you can get it in the UK here:
http://www.eden.co.uk/shop/chinese-english-simplified-script-hb-1141545.html
and for Chinese language:
http://www.eden.co.uk/shop/chinese-union-bi-new-punct-1190197.html
I also have a electronic bible, in English and Chinese, as a program for my home computer that I downloaded for free from here:
Thanks for the info Mike. I will be leaving for China on Sunday and will be back in August for a week then returning to China so I will order a copy for my return. What I have been able to get hold of is about 200 Christian/Gospel/Worship songs that are sung in Chinese. I am taking these with me on Sunday.
Willy the Londoner
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New evolution theory
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Thats funny Vince, Zhou was shopping today and when she came home she said that men act like dogs and some American young men act more like pigs then she made the " oink oink" soundso I knew what she was saying, I bout fell of the chair laughing
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That's " Priceless " !!!
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OK Now I'm totally confused???
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Mike, that was okay but this is what I grew up with in the mountians of Pennsylvania, outside of a little town called Grampian, Pa. on a mountian we called Hogback ( yeah I know, I'm a hillbilly)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-p-XO-_Bwc&feature=related
I hope this works, anyway you get the idea, except now I follow the way of my Ancestors, any name you call it, it's all the same, one God with many names.
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here is a prayer that I translated from Cherokee, I think all the words are right, I think they are at least close,
Oh Great Spirit whose voice I hear in the winds, hear me, I am small and weak,
I need your strength and wisdom.
Let me walk in beauty and make my eyes ever behold the red and purple sunset.
Make my hands respect the things you have made and my ears sharp to hear your voice.
Make me wise so that I may understand the things you have tought my people.
Let me learn the lessons you have hidden in every leaf and rock.
I seek strength, not to be better then my brother,
but to fight my greatest enemy..... myself.
Make me always ready to come to you with clean hands and straight eyes,
so when life fades as the fading sunset,
my spirit may come to you without shame.
I also have this for all those of the brotherhood, from me to you and yours,
May the warm winds of heaven blow softly upon your house,
May the Great Spirit bless all who enter there,
May your moccassins make happy tracks in many snows,
and may the rainbow always touch your shoulder and
may you always walk in sunshine.
May He bless us all.
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Well MM I can use this one..."May the warm winds of heaven blow softly upon your house" being hurricane season started. :icon_cheesygrin:
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MM
Wonderful prayers .... and of course I had to share some Traditional Irish prayers here too :)
Traditional Irish Blessing and Toast
May the road rise up to meet you,
May the wind be ever at your back
May the sun shine warm upon your face
And the rain fall softly on your fields
May green be the grass you walk on,
May blue be the skies above you,
May pure be the joys that surround you,
May true be the hearts that love you.
And until we meet again, May God hold
you in the hollow of his hand
and here is a typical Irish prayer (funny)
May those who love us, love us;
and those who don't love us, may God turn their hearts;
and if He doesn't turn their hearts, may he turn their ankles
so we'll know them by their limping.
:icon_cheesygrin:
The last one-that's funny. I am going to pray it early and often!
Skip
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Mike, I like both of those and that last one is funny, I can only hope it comes true hahaha.
Vince, I truely hope that any winds that blow on you home are as gentle as a soft breeze and not the winds of hell, stay safe my friend:icon_biggrin:
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Hehe, Mike I know the first one but the second is new to me, I like it too!
With a surname like yours you must have a lot of relatives here?, what part of the country do they come from? Have you had a chance to visit here yet and look up your roots?
May I ask a personal question too?, you don't have to answer it if you don't want to.
The whole idea of where we came from and where we are headed has fascinated me from an early age and in school myself and the priest that taught us in religion class had great debates, I really respected the guy and his unshakeable beliefs. Was there a moment in your life that lead you to the point where you realised that your belief was true and felt if deep in your heart and "knew" it was real?
I sometimes wonder what that is like and how people arrive at that realisation and what was happening in their lives when they crossed over from being a sceptic to finding their "faith" for real.
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Irish , as you might already know , my real " Faith " in the Lord , started after my first Wife died . Of all thing's , this most hardest of any test's had me realize that God does love us all . Knowing Cancer can be a very lenghty ordeal with much pain . Seeing my Wife with pain was harder on me , than you can imagine . But one day he decided , to take her quickly with little Pain as possible and let me carry her pain for her instead . As time passed , I realized , that he not only saved my Wife alot of Pain but also me . Which could have streched out over year's . From that moment on , I've never been that close to God . As a reward for having Faith in him , he in return send me on this Journey to find my NEW Wife . Faith and Fate/Destiny go hand in hand . This so true , because I did not go looking for a Wife at all ... it just came all to me . With my help of course and the Lord's guiding of course .
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Though I have been a believer for 30 plus years I still struggle getting my mind around what I believe is the absolute truth expressed here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pxBay2r2SI
I have recently become an Episcopalian. I did it because I love the Holy Eucharist. The "body and blood" of Christ was foreign concept to me. In the evangelical church it is a symbol; not as Catholics and Episcopalians believe: that each represents the actual supernatural body and blood of Christ. I endure the music, which I find to be so ancient I can't identify with it, for the Eucharist.
I am glad God didn't leave it up to me to be acceptable. I would have never made the cut.
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Though I have been a believer for 30 plus years I still struggle getting my mind around what I believe is the absolute truth expressed here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pxBay2r2SI
I have recently become an Episcopalian. I did it because I love the Holy Eucharist. The "body and blood" of Christ was a foreign concept to me. In the evangelical church it is a symbol celebrated with grape juice and a matzo type wafer, not as Catholics and Episcopalians believe: that each represents the actual supernatural body and blood of Christ. I endure the music, which I find to be so ancient I can't identify with it, for the Eucharist.
I am glad God didn't leave it up to me to raise myself to the level of "acceptable". I would have never made the cut.
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Ok hate to throw a brick threw a window here. But Mike you do know that John the Baptist didn't say "In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit ..." That is a Catholic thing.
My ex was Lutheran, me a weakened Catholic. My kids were baptized Catholic as infants. At one time (during the divorce) I told my ex to bring the kids to church, any just so they have something? She said come pick them up Sunday morning and take them to the Lutheran church (Hers)? I said No, you take them it's your church. Well she got a neighbor (she was good at getting others to do her work) that took them to a Catholic church. Same one I use to go to. They both made their communion. But that seems to be the end of it.
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Mike, excellent argument. I remember debating that argument back in school in the mid 90's. Glad you found it , will have to look back through my notes at a later date because there is more info on it.
Man its not easy typing with one hand.
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Shaun what are you doing that your typing one handed? :s
It's all his opinion for a alternative theory. The writings were not written in the same generation unless 50+ years is a generation? And what about the third writings that were not published because it was to contrasting with the other two writings.
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I grew up in the Salvation Army. For me it was like growing up in a little village. The people there knew nothing about life outside of the village. I was known there and felt at home there. There are many good people in that village and I often think of the people I knew there.
When I became a man, I realised I could not believe in good faith. So I had the choice of staying and pretending to believe, or leaving and losing all the friends and family I had grown up with.
I often wonder if I had met a good woman in my little village, maybe I would be still there, playing in the brass band, comforted by my good wife, content and happy.
I miss it a lot, that sense of belonging. Some nights I even listen to brass band music. Now isn't that an appalling admission *laughs*
In my opinion it's better to be unhappy and lonely and miserable, than to deceive yourself and others, by pretending to be a Christian, when that's not what you honestly believe.
I continue to try and act in that way.
I have told my woman I would much prefer her to be happy without me, than unhappy with me. If she thinks she couldn't be happy living here, then I would understand.
I have managed people for twenty years. I have studied some psychology and marketing and advertising. I am good at what I do.
It is not a difficult thing to manipulate people, to make them do what you wish.
There are certain buttons you can push to make people do as you please. I am thinking about people's desire to belong, to think well of themselves, to be accepted, things like that.
To use this knowledge to get what you wish for is simply disgraceful.
I am not saying this to show off. I am just saying that this is another example of a situation in which doing the right thing is not necessarily brings you any happiness.
I think that is what love really is, when you care about the happiness of someone else, more than you care about your own happiness.
Life is full of hard choices.
When you do the right thing, it doesn't necessarily make you any happier. Mostly it does. But sometimes it doesn't.
I am feeling what so many others feel, month after month: the sadness of being so far away from the one I love, the sadness of longing for someone who might decide in the end to go her own way. Ah well, whatever will be, will be.
I really am glad to have met the people I have met here. It's kind of sad we're dispersed, but one day perhaps, I will catch up with the Aussies and some of my favourites.
Take care, one and all.
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Shaun what are you doing that your typing one handed? :s
It's all his opinion for a alternative theory. The writings were not written in the same generation unless 50+ years is a generation? And what about the third writings that were not published because it was to contrasting with the other two writings.
Vince I had carpel tunnel surgery on my right hand yesterday. I will have the left one done later.
I wanted to respond to your alternative theory comment but it may take too long. A good resource of info are two book called "Evidence that demands a verdict" by Josh McDowell. It is a dry read but is chocked full of facts and resources. Josh was an agnostic who was studying law when he set out to prove Christianity false. What happened is that he discovered truth and has devoted a good portion of his life to seeking out more evidences.
When my had gets better I might share some of the things here.
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"Faith is the evidence of things hoped for, the assurance of things not seen". There will always be a void of pure truth. It is a necessary ingredient in the life of a "believer". If you expect to fill in all of the blanks with Absolute knowledge, you are rowing up that famous creek without the necessary equipment. Even though Josh McDowell has removed much of the mystery with his research, I don't believe God ever intended the story to be absent an element of faith.
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A good resource of info are two book called "Evidence that demands a verdict" by Josh McDowell. It is a dry read but is chocked full of facts and resources. Josh was an agnostic who was studying law when he set out to prove Christianity false. What happened is that he discovered truth and has devoted a good portion of his life to seeking out more evidences.
Shaun, I hope your hand and arm is on the mend. It's a nasty thing carpal tunnel syndrome. So I trust this is going to fix it up for you.
That Josh McDowell takes me back. I can remember that book when I was at university more than 25 years ago, like it was just yesterday. How time flies! I was a Christian at the time I read it and I can remember being really excited that there were good reasons to support my faith. While later on I did more reading and thinking about the matter (reaching other conclusions), it really was a book that (at the time) changed the way I thought about things.
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"Faith is the evidence of things hoped for, the assurance of things not seen". There will always be a void of pure truth. It is a necessary ingredient in the life of a "believer". If you expect to fill in all of the blanks with Absolute knowledge, you are rowing up that famous creek without the necessary equipment. Even though Josh McDowell has removed much of the mystery with his research, I don't believe God ever intended the story to be absent an element of faith.
Though I'm not a Christian, I agree with this. I believe (true) faith is a gift, "grace". While many people believe simply from the tradition in which they were born in. For people who wish to move beyond mere tradition, I think that it needs to be something that is given to them.
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Thanks for the good words and the hand appears to be healing fine. Other than the incision, my hand mainly my fingers feel great. Can't wait to pickup the old guitar and give it a try. Haven't played it over 3 or 4 years because of the pain and numbness.
We've been talking about whether the bible is or is not the word of God. Faith is vitally important but there is the struggle with intellectual assent. Rather than writing a dissertation, because of my hand, I chose to recommend a book.
But please continue to offer input, this is the one thread where we can talk freely about religion and not worry about offending someone. When we do not agree with each other, we choose to disagree and remain friends.
So, Danny, if you do not mind me asking, if you are not a Christian, what religion do you belong to or are you an agnostic? I only ask because if we speak about religion it helps me to understand what belief system I am speaking with.
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arrrggg we got a mixed bag here. There's a comment in each post I want to say.
1. agnostic who was studying law
I can see it was a far stretch for this guy coming from where he did.
2. prove Christianity false.
This is an impossible task. It can not be proven false. It's like saying to prove love isn't a feeling?
3. "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. " - Hebrews 11:6
This is what I call the christian bounce. If you talk of christianity they bounce into the old testament for proof of the new testament? christianity is just the one.
4. what belief system I am speaking with.
See this is what bothers me the most the spin offs to accommodate what you want to believe. This shows clearly there was and is a problem in the writings, believing and faith of.
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I deplore long posts. So, it is with a great deal of reticence that I make this one.
The Christian faith is a mystery. As a young boy (13 years old) I made a profession of faith. I grew up in Oklahoma. I lived adjacent to a Baptist church. The preacher would come by my house weekly to remind me (and my parents) that I was surely destined for Hell unless I confessed my sin and repented. Who wants to go to Hell? So, with terribly “white knuckles” I complied. Problem was, it wasn’t real. Despite being baptized, I lived the next 19 years as an Agnostic. The only time I attended church was as a fraternity pledge in college. I was compelled along with other members of my pledge class to take our house mother to church on Sundays. Purely image—nothing more.
After college, nothing. The only time I talked about God was to put him down violently. I lived as a heathen and did it fabulously. Bad behavior was my lifestyle. I got really good it.
When I was 32, in October 1978, God flipped a switch on in my heart. From that fateful day, my life was transformed. I remain as sure today as I did then. Plenty of small questions, but not the “big one”. Do I still make some of the same mistakes today I did then? Absolutely. Had I been him, I would have never chosen me. But he did and he is stuck with me.
Some people come to belief more intellectually than emotionally. That’s all about one’s personality. For others like me, it is more of an emotional experience. That’s who I am. Faith does not come from resolve, but rather supernaturally. It’s not something you decide to have. It’s a gift only God can give at the optimum time.
I have friends who don’t share my beliefs. I have some buddies who didn’t when I met them, but do now. I have prayed for them. Maybe I wasn’t the only one who did, but had I been, that would have been enough.
So, if you find yourself thinking I am speaking Chinese about this, it’s okay. It’s not my timing, but his. Having a spiritual life is a process. If God wanted us to all be transformed in a blink he could do it. Interestingly, IMHO, he does it at his speed and in his time.
If you haven’t begun the journey, maybe a simple request to be given a ticket would start you on your trek.
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So, Danny, if you do not mind me asking, if you are not a Christian, what religion do you belong to or are you an agnostic? I only ask because if we speak about religion it helps me to understand what belief system I am speaking with.
Shaun, no, I don't mind.
I would probably class myself as agnostic.
My parents are ministers of religion in the Salvation Army, a mainstream protestant denomination.
I enjoy talking about religion.
It takes great care to talk about religion without it ending up being vindictive and unpleasant.
I studied it a lot. I must have read over a thousand of books on the subject. It seems a shame that (for me) the journey ended in a dead end.
I don't read anything about it anymore. I prefer to read novels and history, stories about the here and now.
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4. what belief system I am speaking with.
See this is what bothers me the most the spin offs to accommodate what you want to believe. This shows clearly there was and is a problem in the writings, believing and faith of.
Vince, I would like to comment on your response to #4. You have attempted to make a case that man has written some of the Bible and put his spin on it. You made the statement “what bothers me the most the spin offs to accommodate what you want to believe.”
Just by very fact that you say to accommodate what you want you believe, you yourself have interpreted man’s motivations and put your spin on their reasoning in starting another faith. The first faith was satanic with fallen angels. The second related to man and they were Jewish according to the Bible. When Abraham had two sons by two different women, and basically the rejection of the eldest son there was a split in religious belief. You see this even today the major differences born out of rejection. This is where the Muslim faith began. This was caused by a sin issue with man not God.
Then later Jesus came and died and many Jews wanted to follow the teaching of Jesus. They believed He was the Son of God. Most of the Jews turned their backs on God and rejected His Son. A new faith was born called Christianity. Again, born out of the sin of man not God.
Now we find Christianity with different denominations. They all essentially believe the tenants of faith but quite often expressed in different ways. I like how the denomination I serve in says it in relation to other denominations. "In the essentials-unity in the non-essentials-liberty." So that if you are Catholic and you believe you should worship with through written ritual, or you are Baptist and you want to worship by 3 hymns, a prayer, an offering and a sermon, or you are Pentecostal and you want to hold your hands in the air, worship with many songs, hear a prophetic word with the speaking of tongues, the laying on of hands and oil for healing, and the word preached it is all good as long as we believe the same thing in the essentials. I.E. Jesus was the Son of God, He was born of a virgin, we must be baptized as an outward sign of our faith, and that Jesus is the way then all is good.
So my question to you is how does that accommodate what you believe? I see different outward expressions of the same belief. What is it you see?
Do Christians, Jews and Muslims make mistakes? Yes. Do they try to follow their faith? There are a lot who do. The ones you hear about are in general, the ones who do not.
As a believer of God the only stumbling block I need to overcome are the erroneous thoughts in my own mind. I am reminded of the story of Jesus talking with Peter. You can read it in John 21:20-22 Peter asks the question What about him? He was pointing to another disciple. Jesus basically said in short, don’t worry about him, you follow me.
The basic problem Vince from MHP is that you get caught up in the sins of mankind and fall on the common argument that the Bible is a good book with man’s influence and his agenda but is a basic guideline for people to follow. At some point a person has to get beyond that and realize it is not about mankind but it is about God and Jesus and all we need to is follow Him. All the rest falls into place as we grow in relationship with God.
Just my humble opinion.
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Are you toying with me? Did you have a little to much church wine today?
When Abraham had two sons by two different women, and basically the rejection of the eldest son there was a split in religious belief. You see this even today the major differences born out of rejection. This is where the Muslim faith began.
Religion of one God started thousands of years after Abraham and his sons. As it first started they were call something else I can't recall right now and as it developed they became Jews.
They believed He was the Son of God. Most of the Jews turned their backs on God and rejected His Son. A new faith was born called Christianity.
Jews DID NOT turn their back on their God. And saw Jesus as just a man not the messiah he was claimed to be. OK I'm going to make this statement and then continue with an experiment. Though Jesus said God the Father, He also never said he was the son of. Others did he didn't. Also another statement and I want both of them remembered for the experiment. If you ever were in NYC you had to come across a deaf guy or blind guy collecting money. Ever wonder if they really were?
Ok clear your mind of Jesus and all you know and read about him. All the stories, gone. He's now just a man, a common jewish man. You hear of some man that is a Rabbi is collecting not thousands but a handful of people. It was uncommon for a rabbi to carryon conversations about the scrolls outside of temple. It was more forbidden then. It was considered as talking against the government (Roman Empire). You hear he made a blind man see? But you know the man they mean and he's not blind just a begging bum.
You hear that this man came into the temple and started a riot, throwing things around and tables over. Hey they were just trying to make a buck selling things. People call the cops on him. They throw him in jail for the night. The next day he's in court. The judge says it's out of his jurisdiction. Shouldn't be in Criminal court it should be in civil. They march him down to civil and it gets thrown out. It should be in criminal? They take him back to court again. The judge asks him guilty or not guilty? No reply. He asks again? The man mumbles some gibberish. The judge asks the jury, they come up with a sentence. Case closed.
This is what they saw and knew of him then.
Later on (50 or more years) Christianity was growing from the writings of a few "Followers". The Roman empire fighting this for years decided if they opened it up they can have control of it and the Empire can stay in power. "Constantine" decided this. He made the rules. He put the men he wanted in power of it. All to save the empire and have a name for himself.
I can go on with Nero and the burning of Rome and the blame went to the christians. Nero who wasn't even in Rome at the time, was said to be playing the violin? Just a story, not true.
Spin offs to accommodate beliefs. Well the jews have Saturday so we'll make ours Sunday. Hey lets see how many times we can get them to stand, knell and sit? hehe Hey! there's no singing in church. You want to sing go start your own church. Well I don't like the "Can not Divorce" so lets change that. We can still be christians just make our own religion.
At some point a person has to get beyond that and realize it is not about mankind but it is about God and Jesus and all we need to is follow Him. All the rest falls into place as we grow in relationship with God.
Mmmm I think this was the same thing Mosses said? and look what happen there? Speaking of Faith? Tell me please how many people READ THE TEN COMMANDMENTS? Answer is just one. Did he relay it exactly as it was or did he change a few words? It's all in Faith. There was another bush we were told to have faith in? That worked out well? So basically your asking me to have faith in stories made up by men that maybe were looking for their 15 minutes of fame? Glorifying things that MAY have happen. No one knows for sure that's why there was so many different accounts of it. But they made sure by destroying anything saying different.
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SKIP WROTE,
And, with all due respect, trying to explain my belief system to you is like trying to teach a pig French. It’s a language you can't understand. Does that make me better or brighter than you? Hell NO. I have lived on the spiritual plane which you reside. Now, I am on a different one. As I said in my earlier post: If I had been God, I would have never chosen me. Maybe someday, you will make the same statement.
It’s a miracle man—no human fortitude needed. According to the scripture, David who was a liar, murderer and adulterer was a man who God said “was after his own heart”. Why, David though a King, was the son of a whore, totally rejected by his father—a boy who spent his young life far removed from the household and shamed by his dad. BUT, when the right time came, David knew how to ask for mercy.
"David though a King, was the son of a whore" ? ASSUMED, since no one knows who she was how did they know she was? All we will get out of this is Opinions.
"It’s a language you can't understand" Oh contrair, it's already understood. and surpassed. The word that is suppressed is "Afraid" Afraid of God, Afraid of dying, Afraid if you don't believe a certain way you won't go to heaven. Well? I'm not. If God gave me this life to test me? Why do I have to have a religion telling me what to do or not do? You feel you need it? I don't.
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Are you toying with me? Did you have a little to much church wine today?
Guy's sorry for the long post but I don't know any other way with all of this. Plus I am a preacher so go figure...
Too much wine Hmmm….. Could be! Well, there would have been a day when that would be true but no more. Occasionally I might have a beer with a buddy but that may happen 2-3 times a year.
The One God religion started before Abraham and that it eventually became known as the Jewish faith.
The Jews and Christians share most of the same Bible. Christians call it the Old Testament. The Jews turning their backs on God is common practice. People do it every day. It is a human problem.
At the time of Jesus there were horrible abuses in the Jewish faith by the Pharisees. The Pharisees tried to cater to Roman Empire just to keep peace but at the same time used them to keep the people under control. Taxation was outrageous hmmm… like today. Naaa… I won’t draw that parallel. Laws were being written to suppress the people even further.
Many people responded to Jesus and the Pharisees didn’t like it. They all but called it a riot but to the followers it was celebrating a new king and they were looking for deliverance from oppression. The Pharisees called it a riot and were afraid of a rebellion because they knew they would lose power. Out of all of the Pharisees only one stood up for Jesus, I imagine there would have been more but there too were afraid of losing their positions within the hierarchy of Judaism.
Even today in Israel there is oppression with the Jews. If they were to confess that they were a Christian or believed in Jesus as the son of God they would lose their citizenship in Israel. If I understand it correctly they can still live there but they cannot vote, they do not have access to state healthcare, or any of the benefits provided for by the government. If they make noise and become activist they are deported. Outside groups (Christians) are allowed to come in because they are looking for that tourist money but they have to be careful with what they say or they have to leave. I have been there twice.
At the Temple Mount Institute in Jerusalem I have had the opportunity to talk with some of the leading professors there and have asked many questions that they simply refused to answer. The second time I was there they remembered me and one of the professors pulled me to the side and told me that I asked questions that if they answered them they could lose their funding and citizenship and they will not risk it. We’ve had many great conversations but there are areas they will not go.
I spoke with an archeologist who has spent most his life in Israel with archeology as his career. As we discuss certain digs there will be questions he will not answer. On one occasion we were talking about the war in 1967 where bombs landed in a cemetery just outside of the eastern gate of the old city. It is a Palestinian graveyard. You may know that the eastern gate is sealed even the one below the current wall that was during Jesus time. The bombs blew a hole down and through the gate of the Solomon rock. He said that he was able to go down there and look at it and found several interesting artifacts. I asked him what he found. His answer was “State secret can’t tell you.”
There is a theory that the Ark of the Covenant is buried there. The Temple Institute says they know where it is. We will not know until it has been revealed. Side note: Last week there was a report that it was found in Ethiopia and experts are trying to authenticate it. I am not holding my breath.
Sunday vs. Saturday. Christians worship on Sunday because it was the day Jesus rose from the dead. Stand, kneel, and sit? All non-essentials to the faith but standing and sitting keeps people awake. Singing vs. non-singing, instruments vs. acapella all non-essential issues. Divorce is over interpretation of the passage say man should be a husband of one wife. Still a non-essential but can hurt feelings. There is a huge difference between religion and denomination. Most of what you mention is personal preference. But the essentials must be the same. I.E. One God, Jesus the son, Born of virgin, Born again, 10 commandments, baptism, forgiving, truthful, and a few others we can talk about later.
The different account and being destroyed? They still exist I have copies of them in my library. Have read them. The Gospel of Thomas starts out, “read this and you will be saved.” It doesn’t even begin to measure up to the other books written that are in the Bible. It appears to me that you’ve become real syndical of man but blame God or religion. Put it where it belongs. You do not trust man and I can understand that.
Now, Vince please do not take the next few questions personal or like I am trying to single you out personally. There are millions of people who share your opinion and they are questions I ask all the time. But let me ask you. Is there not one man that you can trust, completely? Does that person exist? Do you trust yourself? Why is it impossible to believe that the God who created the universe and mankind cannot believe that He cannot convince one man to write what He wanted written for all mankind to read?
I will close with this scripture passage written long before you and I ever came up with these non-original thoughts and comments.
The apostle Paul wrote Timothy, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16)
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Well Vince, you have promise. You, when it comes to God, are an insolent SOB.
Shaun, has it on me with the knowledge. I am just speaking from personal experience. I have only one.
A couple of things come to mind: First Jesus was killed because of only one thing: He claimed to be God. I would quote the scripture, but you wouldn’t look it up anyway. I am always intrigued by folks who claim to know so much about religious history though they totally reject the most predominant information we have available.
And BTW, I do have church wine (I am Episcopalian) on Sundays. Tonight I am drinking a Marini. However, it doesn’t influence 31 years of my story.
I will issue you a challenge. One I know you will be reluctant if not totally defiant to accept: Ask for the truth—no matter how it comes. Ask for it in whatever manner you feel comfortable. Then deal with the response.
The “teaching a pig French” thing was not to demean you at all. So don’t take it that way.
No matter what, I accept you as a man with whom I can have growing respect and friendship.
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OK guys the wine comment was a joke. So I wasn't accusing anyone of anything. I said the wine thing to priests and deacons. I called multimillionaires idiots to their face and even told Billy Joel I was tired of his last album make something new. It's a way to show them I'm not like the other asskisses and we will be talking man to man.
So Skip I don't know if you read the earlier posts but no matter what is said we walk away friends here. So in relation to the above statement, if I want to call you names I'll say it to your face or in a PM since I won't travel just for that. :icon_biggrin:
The jewish religion started with Abraham. Yes, but I wouldn't call it a religion at that time. This is where we are going different paths. The "religion" came later on.
I didn't know what you said about christians in Israel? The only people I knew there were Jews. Which brings up a sad story. Someone I knew from my old forum and we talked much like we do here. We went to the same High school and after school he married another alumni and they moved to Israel. They loved it there and made a family. We never really spoke of religion. We did talk of his son and daughter getting married 6 months apart and of the fighting that was going on there at the time. He said he lived away from that. The daughter was the younger but got married first. His parents came in from NY and they had a great time. Later it was the sons wedding. They were getting ready for that so he wasn't posting as much. On the TV a few days later they are talking of a snipper that shot at passing cars and one was person driving was killed. I got a bad feeling about it. Few days later I got the word it was him. He was driving and his father was in the passenger seat. His wife and mother were in the back seat going to the wedding. Killed him instantly, his father grabbed the wheel and kept the car going out of the area. His parents were OK but his wife also was hurt. Sorry but when I read the name Israel it makes me think of him.
As for the Ark? I did hear something about it MAYBE being almost located? But I'll believe it when I see it.
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Forget about the wine, I knew it was a joke and was not offended. A little clarity here. Christians do live in Israel but are not citizens. They cannot be. Only Jews can unless the say that Jesus is the Son of God or that they are Christians. I have been to church services there where they take up all of the cameras because there are Jews that go to church there. They do not want any evidence that they go because they could lose their citizenship.
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Didn't Indiana Jones find the Ark? Next your gona tell me Hollywood is fake.
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I've been to Hollywood it's real...the people are fake.
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I know nothing about the bible, never read it, never will, as far as I'm concerned we evolved from primates but one thing I have observed in my life is that a person whom is born a christian usually keeps their religion to themselves unless they are with other christians.......... whereas a born again christian is the biggest pain in the ass ever because they seem to think because they have converted they must convert everyone else, I'm into fast cars but I only talk about them to other petrol heads, I don't try to tell everyone they need a 12sec car just because I have one because I know it would bore them to death, something born again zealots don't seem to understand.
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Are you toying with me? Did you have a little to much church wine today?
Why is it impossible to believe that the God who created the universe and mankind cannot believe that He cannot convince one man to write what He wanted written for all mankind to read?
I will close with this scripture passage written long before you and I ever came up with these non-original thoughts and comments.
The apostle Paul wrote Timothy, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16)
When the claim of the power of God is used to support a stance - then why stop there. Why could God not have the words recorded that once read all would believe. Of course we are told that God's mind is so vast that we can not understand all that he has planned. But if this is the case, then we are never sure.
Once again, I see that organized religions seems to place more importance on the prophet then the God. For Christians - I need to believe in Jesus to believe in God. For Muslims - I need to believe in the word of Mohammed to believe in God. Many Catholics pray to the Virgin Mary. To be a Mormon I have to follow the preachings of another prophet. Many Buddhist pray and view Buddha as a deity.
If we can not comprehend the power of God, then maybe more revelations will be revelead, in time by other prophets.
When I took anthropolgy courses the fertility lady and the bear cult predated other religions. I for one think that if there is a God then it would be as a She not a He. This might be labled as symantics, but the way the 3 Judo-Christian-Muslim religions have feuded with each other makes me believe all 3 are wrong. They share the same God but refuse each other because of the founder of their books.
So we have more then 1 man writing multiple books about the same God. I guess this means that I do not believe God either can or at this time is willing to have written that one book.
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So we have more then 1 man writing multiple books about the same God. I guess this means that I do not believe God either can or at this time is willing to have written that one book.
It's hard to deal emotionally with sincere people, who fervently believe that their faith is the right one. They are incredibly convincing.
So as an agnostic, it is good to remember that each religion has its own defenders and evangelists. All of them are passionately convinced that their beliefs are from God. All of them are represented by incredibly clever and brilliant men, who could just dance rings around me intellectually.
In my opinion, the sincerity of your beliefs doesn't really help someone else determine whether or not those beliefs are right or wrong.
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[In my opinion, the sincerity of your beliefs doesn't really help someone else determine whether or not those beliefs are right or wrong.
I couldn't agree more with you Danny. I have come to believe that I have to travel my own path inorder to find my own way, my own beliefs.
I also find it that we are here on this site, looking for Love from a place that requires a different, or maybe yet, similar leap of faith. We are told that religion requires this leap of faith in the absense of unrefutable proof. When we are writing EMF's to our lady we are trying to figure out if she is one of the real ones or just a dream. Untill we finally make that journey across the ocean, we also require faith in our dream inorder to carry on.
I agree partially with China Shark with what brings us here to search for Love. But I choice to differ on saying we do not settle for second best, I think we just chose to settle for something different.
And as for religion, I believe in evolution, I also can believe there might be a higher power. So for me it is no stretch to believe that religion can evolve as we become more enlightened.
There was an excellent Scientific show called "The Day The Universe Changed". I always thought what a superb title. In the show, because of some new invention or understanding of scientific principle, mankind's view of the Universe changed. In actuallity, the Universe is always as it is, it is us that has changed our viewpoint. And for me, Religion has followed the same trend. If there is a God - then God has always been, it is just us that have changed in how we view God.
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Are you toying with me? Did you have a little to much church wine today?
Why is it impossible to believe that the God who created the universe and mankind cannot believe that He cannot convince one man to write what He wanted written for all mankind to read?
I will close with this scripture passage written long before you and I ever came up with these non-original thoughts and comments.
The apostle Paul wrote Timothy, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16)
When the claim of the power of God is used to support a stance - then why stop there. Why could God not have the words recorded that once read all would believe. Of course we are told that God's mind is so vast that we can not understand all that he has planned. But if this is the case, then we are never sure.
Once again, I see that organized religions seems to place more importance on the prophet then the God. For Christians - I need to believe in Jesus to believe in God. For Muslims - I need to believe in the word of Mohammed to believe in God. Many Catholics pray to the Virgin Mary. To be a Mormon I have to follow the preachings of another prophet. Many Buddhist pray and view Buddha as a deity.
If we can not comprehend the power of God, then maybe more revelations will be revelead, in time by other prophets.
When I took anthropolgy courses the fertility lady and the bear cult predated other religions. I for one think that if there is a God then it would be as a She not a He. This might be labled as symantics, but the way the 3 Judo-Christian-Muslim religions have feuded with each other makes me believe all 3 are wrong. They share the same God but refuse each other because of the founder of their books.
So we have more then 1 man writing multiple books about the same God. I guess this means that I do not believe God either can or at this time is willing to have written that one book.
Rhonald you misunderstand what I was trying to convey. The words in the Bible do not need my help they stand on their own merit. I don't use the passage to prove my point but only to show why I believe what I believe.
The Bible is written so that all may believe but one of the most beautiful things about God is that you have a choice to believe or not believe. As for me it is all the same. The issue of your belief does not matter to me, well it does but I would treat you the same regardless.
As far as the need to believe in Jesus, this is what the Bible teaches and gets a lot of people mad. It may appear to you that we place more importance on Jesus rather than God but it isn't so. There are those who do believe that but IMHO they are not accurate because it isn't what the Bible teaches.
As I have studied over the years it has been my observation that there are no new revelations. With the teachings of God everything is consistent; now when you look at humans it is quite a different story. You can hear them say, "well, God told me this and God told me that and God doesn't like you but He likes me." When people start talking like that it has been my feeling that there is something mentally wrong with them. God loves everyone; He just doesn't like what we do sometimes.
The message from God is a simple one. Believe in Him and your will have everlasting life. Now there is a lot more to it but the simple message is believe. All of the other things come as you grow in your knowledge in and love for Him.
Lastly, there is no gender in God. If there was how could man and woman be made in His image? People over the centuries have referred to God as Him.
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Fair enough shaun - well spoken.
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being religious is not going to save you, only a personal relationship with Jesus Christ will save you.
One of the strange differences between an agnostic and a religious person is that when a religious person converts an agnostic person to their way of thinking they are happy with themselves. But for me as an agnostic person, I sometimes hesitate when I consider the possibility of trying to persuade religious people to come around to my way of thinking. Religious people often seem so happy and content. I worry if I was to take away their "comfort" they would become sad and unhappy. Sometimes when you put a religious person under pressure, by undermining the supports of their faith, they become very angry and defensive. So as a general rule, I avoid doing so. Truth doesn't necessarily make you any happier, in fact it often makes you really unhappy.
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One of the strange differences between an agnostic and a religious person is that when a religious person converts an agnostic person to their way of thinking they are happy with themselves... Truth doesn't necessarily make you any happier, in fact it often makes you really unhappy.
A Christian being happy with themselves? Could it be that you misunderstand their happiness. Could it be that they are happy for the person that was converted? A Christian who is happy for him/herself has wrong motivation. Besides, I can't convert a single person, it is God that does the conversion. He many use me as the vehicle but it would be arrogant for me to think that I am doing the converting.
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Truth may not make you happy but it sure does bring peace. Peace is far more important than happiness. Peace can carry me through all kinds of sorrow. I do not think I would be here as I am if I didn't have peace. I was not happy when my wife told me she wanted a divorce but peace carried me through it and I am the better for it. God said He would give you rest or peace but He didn't promise happiness.
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Peace.....BLOODY PEACE!!!!!!.....You guys are all so self righteous but look at how many wars have been because of bloody religion:@
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if you have not met Jesus personally ?
being religious is not going to save you, only a personal relationship with Jesus Christ will save you.
I think I know what you meant when you wrote "met Jesus personally" I hope you didn't mean literality?
As for the second part "being religious" is the basics for all I wrote on this subject. I think it is the person you really are, not which religion you are that counts.
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A Christian being happy with themselves? Could it be that you misunderstand their happiness. Could it be that they are happy for the person that was converted? A Christian who is happy for him/herself has wrong motivation. Besides, I can't convert a single person, it is God that does the conversion. He many use me as the vehicle but it would be arrogant for me to think that I am doing the converting.
A good answer. Thanks, Shaun.
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Well I did meet someone called Hay Zeus, yes he is a Mexican
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Guy's you l now I don't get involved in this thread very much, but, I have to get one thing straightened out...
I always thought that God and Jesus were 2 different entities!!!:s
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Your a brave man rob going into this thread:angel:
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You see Rob, this is how they skimmed around the commandment, I am the Lord thy God, ... Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Unless I send my son down there or a few others, Oh hell everyones a God.
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I know about the holy Trinity....
now my thoughts on this were...
Jesus IS the son of God, yes?
Therefore
There is TWO entities!!:huh:
GOD.....and JESUS....:@
And as Vince pointed out (hehe)maybe not in this thread, we are all from Adam's bloodline... hehe I'm confused :huh::huh:
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sorry Mike got you confused when I mentioned 'My thoughts...'
I was just talking about GOD and JESUS:huh:
Anyway, I know this may not have anything to do with it, BUT, I have been reading a lot of the posts, and I know this may sound blastphemious, but, knowing what I know about Keren's and my journey on here, I think there definately must be a GOD to guide the two of us together...Sorry to the real religious guy's on here, I am not being flippant here, I'm just trying to say that I am starting to believe again.
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First Tom, the is a thread where we can discuss religion freely and still walk away friends. None of us take anything personal and we all know that there are many differences of opinion. It is all OK.
Second, Mike here is where we will have to disagree a little. I do believe in the Trinity but it is never mentioned or explained in the Bible. The two passages you quoted are the main supportive passages for the concept of the trinity. Again I said I believe in the Trinity because it makes sense based on the two passages but I would hate to hang my salvation on it.
I will give you a definition of the Trinity but it will be a quote from a man by the name of Pat Robertson. Now, there are people who have issues with him but this is the best definition I have seen to date. Boy, I hesitate because of the can of worms this will open.
The Trinity is one of the great theological mysteries. The Trinity is defined as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The Father is the fountainhead of the Trinity, the Creator, the first cause. He is the primary thought , the concept of all that has been and will be created.
The Son, is the expression of God - the "only begotten" of the Father - and He Himself is God. As God incarnate, He reveals the Father to us. The Son of God is both the agent of creation and mankind's only Redeemer.
The Holy Spirit, The third person in the Trinity, proceeds from the Father, and is worshiped and glorified together with the Father and the Son. He inspired the Scriptures, empowers God's people.
In the Holy Eucharist, Catholic communion, the priest says, "In the name of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Amen."
Some priests will drop the "God the" off and say, "In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Amen."
This concept has been around for many years and Biblical scholars could tell you a lot more than I could even begin to say.
To keep it simple for me I see it as one God, three aspects.
Third, Rob, don't worry the only blasphemous thing you could do is to deny the existence of God your whole life. I don't think that is an issue for you. That is to the best of my knowledge.
Peace.....BLOODY PEACE!!!!!!.....You guys are all so self righteous but look at how many wars have been because of bloody religion:@
Tom I went back and re-read your post. How is it possible that you would know those who believe in God well enough to know if they are self righteous or not?
Yes there have been wars started in the name of religion. It doesn't mean that they were right. People were burned at the stake by religious people but most all Christians don't believe in that either. Answer me this. How many wars have been started for things other than religion? The Gulf war was started because, as it was reported, of Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. Some say it was over oil.
My point is why lump all religious people into one basket and blame them? I didn't have anything to do with the religious wars of the past just as I didn't have anything to do with the Gulf war.
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Shaun, I don't have a problem with believers, just the holier that thou attitude of some of them, sometimes I watch those crazy American shows like Benny Hin at 4am (when I can't sleep & need a laugh) and I just sit in amazement at how people can actually get sucked in by this rubbish, they all sit there with a stupid grin on their faces forking out money to these evangelist parasites believing everything they say.
No offense Mike but I doubt you could hold a 30min conversation without mentioning something related to religion, seems you are obsessed by it now that you have converted.
The other thing that really s*its me is there are so many different faiths, why? is one better than the other?
I honestly couldn't see myself worshiping an Arab that was born over 2,000 years ago but good on you if you do, just keep it to yourself like most "normal" Christians seem to do.
My ex in laws tried getting my wife & I into it, she gave me a bible for my birthday, 3 weeks later I gave it back to her for Xmas.....she got the hint, religion was never mentioned again & we all got on like a house on fire & 17yrs after the divorce still do.
Being from British (Liverpool & Edinburgh) parents where my father was raised to hate Catholics & I really mean "HATE" for no other reason than the fact they were Catholics religion was never really a subject talked about in our house as he was so sickened of it as a child.
Do all of you guys think the other faiths are as good as your own? I wonder.
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Tom, most of the people at a Benny Hinn revival are people who are looking for a divine intervention in their life. I have a friend whose son had an incurable disease where some king of fungus grew in this throat and lungs. The young man had many surgeries but it continued to come back, stronger each time. The father claimed one day that God came to him and told him to take his son to a Benny Hinn Crusade. He took his son and Benny laid hands on him and prayed for him. A month later the boy died.
The reason I tell you this story is that many people going to one of Benny's crusades are looking for their last hope and cure. Funny thing is that there are people that are actually healed at these services. It amazes me but at the same time I don't think Benny Hinn had anything to do with it. Jesus tells a person that was healed in the Bible that his faith made him well. I would almost say that Benny should go away but I do not know what God might be doing so I just ignore him. If I had a choice of watching him or the worst movie possible I'd either watch the movie or try to go to sleep.
The beautiful thing about Christianity is that if Benny Hinn is dishonest, in the end is the judgment and he will get his and it will be much worse than anyone could imagine.
Mike, the Bible you quote in support of the Trinity is accurate however what I am saying is that the Bible never spell out Trinitarian Theology and that is what we need to be careful about. You wrote if I remember correctly that the Bible speaks of the Trinity and it does not. The Bible through selected passages support the idea of the Trinity.
Ron, I grew up on the border, and when I was younger, sang in a few nightclubs and before you say it yes I did it for pay; not much pay but enough to keep me interested for a while. I remember a young hispanic comedian who was a musician also and he sang a song that went to the Beetles tune Hey Jude. The words went something like this; "Hey Jew, just sit right down, take a listen, to my singin, if you get up, I stick you in the gut, and you begin to sit back down." Something like that anyway.
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Peace.....BLOODY PEACE!!!!!!.....You guys are all so self righteous but look at how many wars have been because of bloody religion:@
That's not really a difficulty to explain. The religious person will just say that the people who have fought these wars are not acting in accordance with the will of God.
However, in my opinion, the really difficult thing for religious people to explain are natural disasters and disease.
For the remainder of my post, I will use the example of an earthquake to make my point.
A religious person will say that all things work together for the glory of God.
An earthquake is something which is described as an "act of God". No man has a say in it happening.
The earthquake causes great suffering and misery. Let us say it causes a school to collapse. Some of the innocent children die in great pain. Other children will be crippled for their whole lives.
A religious person will not be able to explain such an event. The religious person will say that this is a mystery, and the reason for such events occurring will be known when our lives are over.
I don't think this is a sufficient explanation and for me, thinking on such an event gives me confidence that our understanding of God (if such a being exists) is incomplete.
Most religious people think of God as a loving and kind father. But I ask, what father would will permit such an event? What father would think that causing or permitting such an event brings him honour and glory?
A father who sent an earthquake to kill and injure the children at the school would be a monster, and I think prayers to a being that either wills or consents to such things happening are a waste of time.
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A father who sent an earthquake to kill and injure the children
ironically a father like this would be arrested. Brought into court and have to swear on the bible to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
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Exodus 21/16 Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death.
Exodus 21/20 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished.... Scratch my head - what is the difference between slavery and kidnapping.
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way back in time ....People would get into a debt problem, that they could not repay ....
good thing we do not have such troubles today ... :icon_cheesygrin:
and they could go to prison, or sell a relative (child) into slavery and now that slave is another's property. Usually with a time limit (lease)
so in the first case if I steal your relative (kidnap) I am stealing your property, and I should be punished.
in the second case if I am ruining my own property (slave) and they die ... well then I should be punished, because in most cases my owning a slave was really a "lease" that would expire at some point....
Wow carefull there. First most slaves were the spoils of war not debt. Sell a relative because of your own mistake! They sure thought differently back then, then we do now.
And this is my major grip with written religious laws. The accepted practices of the times are written into laws to ease the conscience of the faithful.
I believe in Evolution, not just physical but spiritual. In-organic material tends to be reduced to more simple stable forms, while organic material tend to add complexity. I am also agnostic so my god is more powerfull then yours....How....Well I Might be right....you Might be wrong. See that is how my God uses Might. I look at the bible and I see evidence of evolution there. The Jews do not view Jesus as being God. The claim is that they view only 1. Christians make the claim that there is a trinity = 3. Christians claim that Jesus introduced the new laws to replace the old view. The trinity is a more complex understanding of God being one and yet 3 distinct parts.
Once many people viewed the world as being flat but with understanding and scientific inquery we understand it is round. Our views changed but the Universe stayed the same. So since I believe life is evolving in complexity, our understanding of this God will also change. God doesn't change but our interpratation will.
If you asked for me to peg my stance... I will say that the Universe created life inorder to be aware of itself. Its purpose has no hidden agenda. The gift each of us are given is the gift of Life. And with this gift each of us experience and contribute.
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Wow carefull there. First most slaves were the spoils of war not debt.
So are all "spoils of war", now the property of the person who took them?
if one nation conquers another, and takes everything .... is it legal? or are they thieves and robbers ??? and who will be their judge?
when do we call in the war police ????
:icon_cheesygrin:
I do not believe in slavery, just in turn I do not believe in conquering. War police? We are the police and we as humanity are doing a terrible job at it. And I guess if my home is being invaded, I can turn to God for salvation, pick up his book and throw it at the intruder, but I hope I have better arms then a black tome to use so that I do not get placed into my own tomb.
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Mike, you ask me what I worship...........I can honestly say I can't think of anything & why do I need to? I am my own person, if I wake up tomorrow, great, if I don't then I guess I'll either make a good BBQ or worm fodder. If I meet a girl who is great in bed I'll worship the ground she walks on for a few days......If I take my car to the drags & at pulls a sub 13second qtr I'll worship it all the way home; I guess the Devil made me do it.
But I must say you have really got that religion bug bad..........You seriously believe as much in the Devil's existence as your God, wow
One thing you guys never answered was which is the best religion? Yours? Mohamed Abdullah's up the road? the Mormon who knocks on your door just as you are about to have a shag on your day off? The family of Seppo's that disturb your Saturday dragging their kids around to annoy people? Scientologists?..........Which one? And don't tell me they are all good or there would only be a need for one Church.
One more thing, why is a cyclone, tsunami etc called an act of God?............Why not an act of Devil?
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a severe event is called an "act of God', even though the devil may have caused it, because the devil wants God to take the blame
In days of myth and wonderment paganism ruled. Before a major endeavor a tribe member would perform rituals to appease the gods to protect the traveller. Charms would be worn to protect from evil spirits. If during his travels the person was purhaps crushed by a rock slide - maybe it was payment for bad deeds, or maybe he angered some spirit.
Rock slides happen, it is called erosion - not the work of god or the work of the devil.
But if you say that God makes rain to allow things to grow, and in turn rain is a major ingredient to erosion, then once again - Who made the rock slide happen, God or the Devil?
One thing you guys never answered was which is the best religion? And don't tell me they are all good or there would only be a need for one Church.
All religions serve a purpose as they attempt to explain the purpose or reason for life. Religions change as the needs of the people change. All religions can be precieved as good if they allow their faitfull to come to terms with the destruction and pain they see around them. So as I have said before, since we living things desire to embrace the complex, our religions will also reflect this confusion and complexity.
I base this on that we humans so desire to be the center of attention, we devise elaborate belifs to justify it. Once the earth was the center of the universe and the stars and sun revolved around it. Who knows, maybe in time, understanding other deminsions, we "Might" once again be placed in the center.
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Hey guy's this is all getting too heated...
Everyone has their OWN belief, it does not matter who is BETTER than WHO, at the end of the day we are all human, for our sins, Does Chrisianity Feed people, does Catholicism Feed people, Does protanstantism Feed people. NO none of them do!!!!!! Bad things happen in the world as well as some good things, we are all created equal, some do wrong, most do right.
The day MY religion comes knocking on my door and says "Rob here is money, go out and celebrate, or whatever" that will be the day I will TRULY believe that my faith is better than any others.
Tom I think you are misinterpreting Mike here, he is always going to 'defend' his belief, he does mention in many posts his beliefs, but we all that that about him, he is harming NO ONE by doing this. If you knew your history you would remember that 98% (at least) of American are religious, no matter what faith they are still very religious, he is worse because he also has IRISH ROOTS...And I mean no disrespect to the Irish here, or Mike.
Hopefully there will come a day when ALL nations will live in peace, let's start here....
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Hey guy's this is all getting too heated...
Hopefully there will come a day when ALL nations will live in peace, let's start here....
Just another 'piece' of the puzzle Rob and I agree with what you posted. I actual can thank Mike and Shaun for making me flex my mental muscle. I haven't thought about these topics for quite some time.
Makes me want to re-read again a book by Loren Eisley called 'The Star Thrower'. It contains a collection of essays and poems that reflect my own view of this grand journey we call Life.
I am off to the Cayuga lake to relax, see you all later on :)
Mike
Take care brother in heart.
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"the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him, All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me"
Mmmm lets see he wondered in the desert for a few weeks and then this happen? Do you think he was delusional? Since he was Jewish and they don't believe in the Devil or Hell? So who made up this story? The english translator that works for Chnlove now?
Again, just because it has it in the bible does not make it true. It is a story book to learn a way of life.
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Religion.......
I've never been religious, or seen anything in religion that would have any interest for me.
I often find that people are always quoting a passage from the bible or other good book, and then putting there own interpretation on that passage. The fact that, ... those same passages were written as someone else's interpretation never seems to get mentioned!!
So what is religion, i think the first religions were basically created by some very smart rulers from the very distant past. They had huge areas of territory that they couldn't possibly secure with manpower, What better way of controlling the people , than having the people control themselves!! About 10/15 years ago, someone came up with the same sort of theory, and published evidence to back his claims, I don't know whatever came out of that....
When you go back as far as you can, ...documented, or by stories past down the ages. There has been more wars, more deaths, and more pain caused by religions then all other causes put together. I understand that to be a documented fact, unless any of you here, can document against....
Now we have fundamentalists, mainly Muslim, but also from the other ranks of religion that either want to rule the world under the rules of their particular religion or want something equally as stupid. They are quite prepared to kill/slaughter themselves, and anyone else that gets in the way of there goals. These people (if you can call them that) genuinely believe, that purposely killing innocent people will martyr them to heaven!!!!! How can you ever argue with a mindset like that.... you can't and that's why they are so dangerous. So that, is my other argument with religion, That there is no argument, which means there's no room for commonsense either!
Never quite understood the reason, for so many needing to have religion in there lives. I've lived my life, and it's been a full one up till now, by believing in myself. I know what's right and whats wrong, i know how far i can go without breaking my own rules, even if i have to stretch them here and there at times. If i get into a jam, i get myself out of it, sometimes with the help of others, but still directed by myself. If i need someone or something to lean on, i lean on my partner, or work things out in my own mind, until i come up with a solution or an answer, ...ie: lean on myself.
Don't get me wrong, i have nothing against anyone believing in what ever they want to believe in, or what ever religion. So long as, there not hurting, or out to hurt anyone else, or trying to covert others to there way of thinking.
I may in the future tell the story of an Uncle that just loved to debate topics on religion, he was a first class debater and a master of the, off the cuff, one line humour. (as good as Bob Hope on any day, and on a good day...far better) How long that post will be, God only knows!! Oooooops, did i say god !
David......
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Oh and Mike if this is true that the Devil rules the earth? Wouldn't that mean we are in HELL? No one can make me believe that the devil rules the earth. Mother Nature is the correct term.
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Vince, this is what i feel like sometimes, we are in hell, with all the suffering that happens on our planet, surely a God, wouldn't let that happen...:s
Hehe Mike sorry no mate not through the stubborness, the Irish roots was said because of your (sounding) so passionate about your religion, throughout the 'Troubles' in Ireland both sets of people were very passionate about their beliefs.:fi_lone_ranger::angel:
No pun intended here but, God bless mother nature.:icon_cheesygrin:
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Ron, my feeling are the same in that it helps me to exercise my mind. I don't spout off the top of my head unless I am absolutely positive in what I am saying. I have a library of several hundred books and notes I have taken over the years and I turn to them to clarify in my mind prior to responding to all of you.
I am a pastor in the Foursquare Church and not serving in a church at this time. My studies have wained somewhat and this has been fun for me. As I walk through this season of divorce, and that not of my own choosing, I have relinquished any position of leadership until I can put this whole issue behind me and have had a chance to stand before the ethics board. This has been done by my own choosing even though it is required by my denomination.
If you want to know more about Foursquare you can go to www.foursquare.org. And before someone discovers this, yes it was the church where Forest Gump was baptized. Watch the movie you will see it.
I enjoy what is happening on this thread as long as we keep it friendly and do not resort to calling people names. Nothing here should be taken personal.
There was so much that has been said since I last responded so I am not sure where to start. The Trinity Theology was mentioned the first time in Genesis 1, notice the capitalization. "let US make man in OUR image."
The clincher for Jesus being God is simple. (Capitalization again) John 1:1 "in the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was WITH God, and WORD WAS God." This passage establishes that not only was the word God but that the word was with God. So if the Trinity doctrine is not true then how can He be God and with God? So if you do not understand this then in verse 14 it spells it out. "and the WORD BECAME FLESH and dwelt among us.
Both examples are new and old testament. Jews and Christians.
Acts of God was a phrase coined by the insurance industry.
I am going to stop here. I don't want this post to take three pages.
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This is what I'm hearing.... When it comes to the Trinity
if you're the coach, you must know all the players.
Abbott: I certainly do.
Costello: Well you know I've never met the guys. So you'll have to tell me their names, and then I'll know who's playing on the team.
Abbott: Well, let's see, we have on the bags, Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know is on third...
Costello: That's what I want to find out.
Abbott: I say Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know's on third.
Costello: Are you the manager?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: You gonna be the coach too?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: And you don't know the fellows' names?
Abbott: Well I should.
Costello: Well then who's on first?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: I mean the fellow's name.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The guy on first.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The first baseman.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The guy playing...
Abbott: Who is on first!
Costello: I'm asking YOU who's on first.
Abbott: That's the man's name.
Costello: That's who's name?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: Well go ahead and tell me.
Abbott: That's it.
Costello: That's who?
Abbott: Yes.Costello: Look, you gotta first baseman?
Abbott: Certainly.
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Vince I liked this version better when I believe it was Johnny Carson doing Ronald Regan and being briefed for his day's interview. Found it!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdmULsIEyEI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdmULsIEyEI
I gues comedy is also religious - after all, it does raise the spirits. Also a stiff drink as a toast raises the spirits. Guang Bay:blush:
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Scottish Rob, a discussion is not a heated argument.
Mike, I can honestly say in my half century on this planet I have NEVER heard anyone say the Devil rules the earth, what religion are you? If you say...get caught speeding or you let rip a huge fart in public which offends the old lady behind you, do you blame the Devil for making you do it? or do you blame yourself, because it seems you have an excuse for everything. And who is right, obviously you would blame the Devil for 9/11 but the Muslims say it was Gods doing or the were following Allah's preaching.........I don't get it!
Shaun, we used to have a foursquare supermarket chain here, may even still be some in country areas lol. Do you believe the Devil rules the earth? Or would this just be the thinking of Mike's Church? If you disagree with Mike and you met up in China for a coffee and he brought the subject up would you debate who was right or wrong?
What would happen if in one room there was a Muslim, a Jew, a Protestant, a Catholic, a 7th day Adventist, a Mormon, a Scientologist & a few others throw in for good luck and they were told to discuss their religion, do you think it would be a peaceful affair?
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Scottish Rob, a discussion is not a heated argument.
Mike, I can honestly say in my half century on this planet I have NEVER heard anyone say the Devil rules the earth, what religion are you? If you say...get caught speeding or you let rip a huge fart in public which offends the old lady behind you, do you blame the Devil for making you do it? or do you blame yourself, because it seems you have an excuse for everything. And who is right, obviously you would blame the Devil for 9/11 but the Muslims say it was Gods doing or the were following Allah's preaching.........I don't get it!
Shaun, we used to have a foursquare supermarket chain here, may even still be some in country areas lol. Do you believe the Devil rules the earth? Or would this just be the thinking of Mike's Church? If you disagree with Mike and you met up in China for a coffee and he brought the subject up would you debate who was right or wrong?
What would happen if in one room there was a Muslim, a Jew, a Protestant, a Catholic, a 7th day Adventist, a Mormon, a Scientologist & a few others throw in for good luck and they were told to discuss their religion, do you think it would be a peaceful affair?
Tom, if you look back on through this thread you will see that Mike and I do not always see eye to eye. (This is not an oddity) A lot of the time it is how things are phrased. When I retired from the oil business I went back to school for two and one half years and studied religion. I do not believe that satan or the devil rules over the earth. The Bible tells me that he runs to and fro over the earth seeking whom he may devour. I do believe he exists but that he get way to much credit for things that happen. But rule? No.
Sometimes bad things happen because people do stupid things.
Foursquare is a construction term that has two meanings. One is balance and the second is solid foundation. That's right your over the pond. That is why I have never heard of a foursquare supermarket.
Finally if a Muslim, a Jew, a Protestant, a Catholic, a 7th day Adventist, a Mormon, a scientololgist, and a leprechaun having a religious discussion? Whew! Well, me lads my name is Shaun so I have to throw the leprechaun in. After all, Tom did say something about good luck. I am what you might call a conflicted person Irish/English heritage.
You heard what happened the last time they got together didn't you? They suggested Obama run for president. Just kidding.
As far as a peaceful fair, it depends on the people. I have had discussions with the first three groups; me being the Protestant. One of my fondest memories is at the Ron Hotel in Tiberius, Israel at night hearing distant mortar fire and seeing the small flashes from Lebanon while talking with a Muslim and a Jew about religion. It was a great discussion.
The key to that being successful is in celebrating the shared viewpoints and discussing without offence the differences. My motto in life is "in the essentials unity, in the non-essentials liberty."
By the way love the new picture, like the old one but this one is much better.
Now that was great.
Vince, Vince, Vince what are we going to do with you. But I think I understand now. You don't hear so well. And Ron, I think God laughs at us sometimes. I can hear Him now, "Oui vay! Des people are crazy!!!!
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Thanks for the explanation, you seem pretty sensible about the whole thing without trying to push your thoughts about religion too hard.
Yeah I couldn't find one of Mr bean that looked like Vince's new avatar, I actually thought of getting someone to photoshop Beans head on his new one but that would be pushing it a bit too far.:icon_cheesygrin:
P.S. I think I'm heading straight to hell lol.
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Tom, There are a couple of things I should have mentioned last night. Mike is a good guy and sincere. Yes, we do not see eye to eye all the time, but I have never felt like he is out in the ozone with his faith. The way Mike approaches issues and the way I approach them are very different. It is the same when explaining them.
There are roles, or we like to used the word giftings, within Christianity or the Church. The true definition of church is a community of Christians (Believers.) It is not a building like most people think. My gifting is that of a teacher and Mikes is that of a Evangelist. My gift is to draw people in to listen and learn while Mikes will generally provoke the listener to take some kind of action. You will either be receptive or you will not. You will either want to know more about what he is saying or you will think he doesn't know what he is talking about. Mike, I am sorry if this next point offends, but the closest occupation that relates to an Evangelist personality is a car salesman or you could even say Billy Mays.
The gifts are either something we are born with or learn through life experience. Both my parents were school teachers and my grandfather was except he didn't teach school he taught people how to be mechanics in his auto shop. I was born into this. I am not sure how Mike came into his gift.
I tell you all this to let you know one, how we approach a subject and two to let you know that Mike is a good guy.
There are more than two roles there are seven and you can see them at work in every community and faith.
Mike says that satan rules over the earth and he can make a case for that is his way of thinking. There are many Christians who believe that. I on the other hand do not believe it because it isn't spelled out with the exception of the tribulation period. To the non-Christian it is the time of Armageddon. Even in the movies that are made about it evil reigns. i.e. mad max, beyond thunderdome, the postman, waterworld, Armageddon...
There is room in Christianity for both of our opinions. This subject is what I would call a non-essential therefor liberty.
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Yeah, I know I'm a Rebel, a Pagan and whatever else you want to call me? Good and Bad happens to everything on this earth. We define it as this but it is not always so. A rainstorm may make floods and wash away homes and maybe some people and we say it was a bad thing to happen. But for the earth it has washed away to renew growth. It's all in the eye of the person.
All the God, Devil talk above are speculations, illusions and threats. Do it our way or else.... Sorry, no one ever will control me. I make my own choices. Christians have if you say these prays, sing this song, confess your sins God will forgive you. For now, unless you don't say this pray 15 times?
The Jewish religion has one special day to redeem themselves for God to forgive them. So once a year they have this.
Isaiah 55:6
Yom Kippur is the Sabbath of Sabbaths, the most Solemn day of the Jewish calendar. On this day, Jews around the world reflect on their lives and give thanks to God for their many blessings. The Rabbis teach that on Yom Kippur, God holds open the gates of Heaven and listens to every word of every prayer. As those final prayers are shared and the Shofar is sounded, God remembers every name--those living and those ...
SINS: All throughout the Bible it says we are forgiven for our sins? Sins? This depends on which religion you belong to. You smoke cigarettes? That's a sin? HUH? If you don't give one quarter of your paycheck to the church that is a sin? What's a sin is manipulating and outright lying to these people, preying on their fears. All so the head muckety-muck could have a Rolex and a Rolls to drive. Even the Catholic church has it's collections of treasures stored away.
God said (?) to Noah after he flooded the earth, he will never again cause suffering to people again? So did he mean all at one time? Because there is suffering happening. Jesus died on the cross for OUR SINS? You would think this would wipe the slate clean? So what happen? A minute later all the sins are back?
I have said this for years, when the time comes and I see with my own eyes Satin or Jesus I know what side I will stand on. Until then? the Bible is a good story book.
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Sorry guy's I just 'felt' that it was all becoming too heated....:s
Apart from on here, I'm not used to Debating or having a meaningful discussion with my peer group here in the Uk, sometimes you can say something and it will kick off rather than 'discussed' so I feel maybe it's better sometimes just to not say a lot.:sleepy:
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Shaun, I have no doubt that Mike is a good guy (totally obsessed) but a good guy with good intentions.
Mike, does your church have a name? How long ago did you convert & why, there must have been something that set you on this journey where it seems religion has taken over your mind and you talk and listen to dead people, do you find people avoid you more now than before you converted?
I just find it totally fascinating how someone can do a total flip in their way of thinking. Did something tragic happen to turn you to God or was it just something you decided to do?
I'm not taking the piss either, I'm just trying to understand how something so major can happen to someone.
I'm afraid I'm with Vince, I'll believe it when there is positive proof like an interview on TV with one of them or Jesus invites me out for dinner & turns the water into wine.
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Rob,
you are fine mate...
we each are presenting our views, no two people see things the same way .... but we can seek to understand, and accept the reality that we are different, and that is OK
I like everyone here, and hope they feel the same for me ...
Shaun,
wow, no one ever told me I was an Evangelist, now that gives me something to think about .... am I to go in that direction???
Vince,
God used the flood to wipe out the earth, destroying all life, except those that were preserved in the Ark. Purging the earth of all evil, and after he was done, he promised Noah (made a covenant) not to ever do that again. Did it fix the problem humanity caused in the Garden of Eden?
No, it just cleaned up the world for a time, but then the world filled up again with imperfect, and sinful people. People that sinned.
Only the work of Jesus at the cross could really fix the problem, and redeem us from the fall.
satan tricked Eve, and Adam, causing them to lose relationship with God, and to fall into sin. It also caused God to leave the earth, and the earth fell into sin and corruption ... was satan clever?
yes, he (satan) gained the whole world, stealing from man, and removing God, so that he (satan) could take over..... no wonder we (people) suffer, and starve, and endure disease, and all kinds of terrible things, this is the goal of the evil one, to corrupt, and kill, and destroy.
Only Jesus could pay the price and redeem the world back to God, and for us, and until Jesus returns and claims the full title and then sets foot on earth and claims what is rightfully his .... for now satan has free run all over the earth. One day the lease will run out on satan, and the whole world will be redeemed, and returned back to God.
Mike
... no two People see thing's the same way ?
Mike , I know you and I are very close of how we view the " Good Book " . As my Journey has brought me a lot closer ( back to God ) , knowing that it was a blessing from above and NOT just MY doing's .
Shaun, I have no doubt that Mike is a good guy (totally obsessed) but a good guy with good intentions.
Mike, does your church have a name? How long ago did you convert & why, there must have been something that set you on this journey where it seems religion has taken over your mind and you talk and listen to dead people, do you find people avoid you more now than before you converted?
I just find it totally fascinating how someone can do a total flip in their way of thinking. Did something tragic happen to turn you to God or was it just something you decided to do?
I'm not taking the piss either, I'm just trying to understand how something so major can happen to someone.
I'm afraid I'm with Vince, I'll believe it when there is positive proof like an interview on TV with one of them or Jesus invites me out for dinner & turns the water into wine.
When you believe in God , you will " SEE " his work ( miracle's ) right in front of you . That is one of the reason I want to write my Book of this Journey to find my Wife . To show that Miracles do happen ... BUT ... for the none-believer's , they will be BLIND to them . My late Wife's death , was needed to OPEN my Eyes .
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When you believe in God , you will " SEE " his work ( miracle's ) right in front of you.. of this Journey to find my Wife . To show that Miracles do happen ... BUT ... for the none-believer's , they will be BLIND to them.
HUH? I think it's a Miracle I found my lady too. I'm not blind to it? I've seen Miracles and I have seen suffering. That's all I'm going to say about it.
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Mike, I answered you privately.
Vince, I should have seen this before but your most recent post shows me that you have studies a lot about differing religions. Kudos to you as you have done more than many Christians as far as study is concerned. However I see that you are mixing the religions together a little and coming up with a universal impression. If we try to stick to a few basics in theology and discuss them rather than mixing them up it makes for a more interesting conversation. Not that this conversation we all have been having is any less interesting but sometimes it is almost like someone is trying to hide the needle in the haystack while others are searching for it with blindfolds.
Vince, you know where I stand as far as the Bible being the Word of God and that I believe it is, for those of you that have not read the whole thread. I don't know if this interests you but many of us realize that many people share your opinion and we discuss how to overcome these objections not necessarily by the words we speak but also by the actions we take.
One of the issues we need to overcome is the perception people have. It is somewhat like the perception many men have when they first consider dating a Chinese woman. After you become involved and gain a little experience you realize your perceptions are wrong. It is the same with Christianity. Though there are those in my faith that do the best they can to create a bad image there is a remnant of people within Christianity that truly try to live their faith out in the way the bible tells us to.
Then there are those within the church that live their life in a way that gives a bad testimony to our faith. Can't do much about that except to be genuine and honest with my faith. I should also mention that I should pray for them to change their way, but often I don't.
One thing I would like for you to remember when it comes to Christians. The only perfect one who walked the earth was Jesus. All of His followers had flaws, they made mistakes, and were human. we are in the process of becoming righteous, we don't start there and progress. The one thing I can tell you is that I am no where near perfect and I make mistakes. The only real difference between you and me is that I am forgiven and I am working toward becoming righteous. I don't think it will even happen in my present form bust is a goal I strive for. If there is a Christian who really thinks he is perfect, just that thought alone blows his cover.
There really isn't much difference between you and I. You have hair and I am better looking. Hehe!!!!
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The only perfect one who walked the earth was Jesus. All of His followers had flaws, they made mistakes, and were human.
Of course, because Jesus was not human he could be perfect. He set the example for us to attain.
Actually I took a course in University and we discussed this very topic about perfection. It is also one of those words that can be translated in different ways. The understanding we had was that Jesus was trying to teach us to be a whole person, not a perfect person. It's just that the word he used has different meanings and the English translated it to meaning perfect and not whole. But since we can not be perfect, trying to be whole is a more atainable goal. Didn't Jesus say "know thyself"? This to me means to be true to yourself and be comfortable with yourself. Then in turn, you can help others in their quest to be whole.
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you have studies a lot about differing religions.
I'm not pointing fingers at one religion. One rolls into the next one and the one after that one and so on. I said this in an earlier post, It's all the same God. Just depends on who's rules you want to go by. I'm an equal opportunist rule breaker.
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You want to see proof ..... let me give you something that will be true in the future, and you could possibly see in your own lifetime...
Revelation 11:3-12
And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."
...
If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies.
...
Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.
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so two witnesses of God will prophesy for 1260 days, in Jerusalem, and the whole earth will see it (TV) and they cannot be killed, until they are done (1260 days) and then they will be killed, and all will see it (TV) and 3.5 days later raised up from the dead by God himself, and taken up into heaven.
so let me ask you ... if you see this happen, along with the whole world ...
then will you believe ?
FEAR GOD AND NOT MAN !
:icon_cool:
You obviously take this literally but it's all complete gobbledygook to me, so when is this going to happen? If it is set in stone then surely next time you talk to God you could ask him for a time and date so I can order the popcorn for the 1,260 days of thrilling TV watching two guys wearing wheat bags breathing fire, and what is their actual point in being here, if it's to preach to everyone will they travel by aeroplane, ship, car, because they will have a lot of getting around to do & what happens if they miss their plane or bus back to Jerusalem? Then the poor buggers get killed by the Devil right? Then they will lay on a street for 3 1/2 days, they'll really stink by then, you sure everyone will want to come and see them? Then after all that work & being killed they are whipped off to heaven.........I can see CNN having a field day with this one.
You also say fear God not man.........I thought God was the good guy & the Devil made all the bad things happen so shouldn't I fear him instead?
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Obviously this was written before modern weapons. If anyone really believes this is going to happen? I have a nice Jacket for you to wear the sleeves are long so they can be tied in the back.
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Tom,
let me ask ...
IF you see the events I described actually happen ... the two witnesses, who prophesy for 1260 days, in Jerusalem, and then they are killed, and then God raises them from the dead after 3.5 days and takes them up into heaven...
then will you believe?
please answer my question
Mike
I've asked you twice what religion you are and you didn't answer me!!!! I'm not afraid to answer you so...........
If this happens you'll see me in sandals with barbed wire wrapped around my head & a 4X2 Jarrah cross on my back walking down the main street of Perth yelling GOD RULES.
And if it doesn't happen you'll renounce your religion and end up in Hell for telling lies right?
Vince, I think there is someone in NY that needs your jacket..................QUICK!!!!!
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I stole this (I've sinned) from another site but the words have good meaning.
Taken into account that the Bible, Torah, Koran, and other religious books of other denominations and sects are in fact books of stories passed down through generations? What happens to a story and how much does it change when passed in a room full of people? These books were not only passed through countless generations but were also dissected and changed by the various religious sects and skewed to promote the idealistic views of that particular sect. Hence the need for so many different religions. Use logic in your reasoning. Consider the average intelligence of the people at the time of these writings. The majority of the population were not schooled in a formal education. Reading and writing were reserved for the elite few. That is why the Bible is written as a story for children because the reasoning and logic of a child is not unlike that of the population when these books were originally scribed. Easy to understand makes it easy to follow and to obtain followers. Specifically for those of an inferior intellect who take for granted that it must be the way because someone wrote it down. Not necessarily a bad thing unless taken to extremes; something that happens all too often. How many wars started and lives lost due to religious differences? TOO MANY!!!!!
Religious belief is faith based and really relies on nothing else save a belief in that which we have no real proof of pro or con. Yet the universe itself is based upon proven scientific constants. Faith versus fact. The easiest explanation of fact and the best way to enslave the minds of the populous? For those of us who take comfort in faith in God and in our religious traditions, more power to you. For those of us who determine that reason and logic should dictate our lives, more power to you as well. In either case no one will know for sure which is right until the end...or the new beginning.
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Yes I would because I would see it with my own two eyes, but I know for a fact that this will never eventuate so I will never have to convert, you on the other hand believe in fairy tales, whereas I believe in REALITY!!!!....................Seriously, 3 men breathing fire...Oh dear.
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More than welcome Mike.
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http://ebionite.com/BibleCorruption.htm
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The only perfect one who walked the earth was Jesus. All of His followers had flaws, they made mistakes, and were human.
Of course, because Jesus was not human he could be perfect. He set the example for us to attain.
Actually I took a course in University and we discussed this very topic about perfection. It is also one of those words that can be translated in different ways. The understanding we had was that Jesus was trying to teach us to be a whole person, not a perfect person. It's just that the word he used has different meanings and the English translated it to meaning perfect and not whole. But since we can not be perfect, trying to be whole is a more atainable goal. Didn't Jesus say "know thyself"? This to me means to be true to yourself and be comfortable with yourself. Then in turn, you can help others in their quest to be whole.
Step into my study brotha.:cool:
There is a story in the Bible that can be found in Matthew 19:16-21. It is called, The Rich Yong Ruler. He asks Jesus, "What good things must I do that I may have eternal life." Jesus tells him to keep the commandments. The young man said "Which one?" Jesus basically said all of them. Then the young man said "All these thing I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?"
Jesus said, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor..."
The word whole does not even fit here. So I went back to the Greek language that the Bible was written in a looked up the definition of the Greek word perfect was translated from. The word in Greek is teleios is from the root word telos. Telos means to set out for a definite point or goal. Teleios is complete as in various applications of labor, growth, mental or moral character. Complete when relating to full age, man, perfect.
A person could use whole but when your read the story and understand its implications in that the young ruler wanted to achieve the goal of eternal life or going to heaven he was looking for a results oriented solution. IMHO it appears he wanted to skip the process and get to the target point. Perfect. Whole has the implications as in a medical term as "not sick." It can also be uninjured, undamaged, or unbroken; undivided as in one piece. Integral not a fraction.
The implications that might be close to what your professor was talking about would be as in whole milk, whole meal, whole day as an example. Neither one of these denote a target or working to a final product.
Mathew 5:48 says, you shall be perfect just as your Father in heaven is perfect. This is the end of Jesus saying to the people love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you.
I think in both passages the implication here is perfect. Shooting for a target.
More than welcome Mike.
Tom, I guess we know what this issue is now with the new profile picture. You naughty boy.:dodgy:
The only perfect one who walked the earth was Jesus. All of His followers had flaws, they made mistakes, and were human.
Of course, because Jesus was not human he could be perfect. He set the example for us to attain.
Actually I took a course in University and we discussed this very topic about perfection. It is also one of those words that can be translated in different ways. The understanding we had was that Jesus was trying to teach us to be a whole person, not a perfect person. It's just that the word he used has different meanings and the English translated it to meaning perfect and not whole. But since we can not be perfect, trying to be whole is a more atainable goal. Didn't Jesus say "know thyself"? This to me means to be true to yourself and be comfortable with yourself. Then in turn, you can help others in their quest to be whole.
That passage does not come to mind. I really don't think it exists. Can you elaborate or give men the scripture reference?
I stole this (I've sinned) from another site but the words have good meaning.
Taken into account that the Bible, Torah, Koran, and other religious books of other denominations and sects are in fact books of stories passed down through generations? What happens to a story and how much does it change when passed in a room full of people? These books were not only passed through countless generations but were also dissected and changed by the various religious sects and skewed to promote the idealistic views of that particular sect. Hence the need for so many different religions. Use logic in your reasoning. Consider the average intelligence of the people at the time of these writings. The majority of the population were not schooled in a formal education. Reading and writing were reserved for the elite few. That is why the Bible is written as a story for children because the reasoning and logic of a child is not unlike that of the population when these books were originally scribed. Easy to understand makes it easy to follow and to obtain followers. Specifically for those of an inferior intellect who take for granted that it must be the way because someone wrote it down. Not necessarily a bad thing unless taken to extremes; something that happens all too often. How many wars started and lives lost due to religious differences? TOO MANY!!!!!
Religious belief is faith based and really relies on nothing else save a belief in that which we have no real proof of pro or con. Yet the universe itself is based upon proven scientific constants. Faith versus fact. The easiest explanation of fact and the best way to enslave the minds of the populous? For those of us who take comfort in faith in God and in our religious traditions, more power to you. For those of us who determine that reason and logic should dictate our lives, more power to you as well. In either case no one will know for sure which is right until the end...or the new beginning.
Vince, There is more evidence showing the Bible and Jesus are real than actual evidence that evolution is real. Up until about 20 years ago one of the very few things that could not be proven was that King David actually existed. Twenty years ago, give or take 5 years archiololgist discovered a cornerstone to a building that said "The house of David." it was from the right time period. As time continues the evidence mounts higher and higher as people find more archololgical evidence.
Tom, another word for fear is respect.
And Ron,one more time. I've read all of this info before and it has been proven to be a false document. It pops up every few years.
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"FEAR GOD AND NOT MAN" is a short motto let me explain what I mean by it.....
Fear is a normal emotion, and a healthy emotion, too much fear is not good, but overall fear is a good thing.
When you fear something, you allow it to control you, so I fear God, and I have a lot of respect for God, he is very powerful, and I allow God to have control over my life, He is my father, and he protects me, and looks after me. I also trust God completely and I have nothing else to fear. I have no fear of man, I give no control over to "man", and I have nothing to fear from the devil, God is in control of my life the devil cannot touch me.
Shaun, I really liked the little chomping guy but I was asked by Sameldrum to change him because he found him distracting......so being the good guy that I am I killed him off and changed him to something much less distracting..........I guess the Devil made me do it lol.
If a man does not fear God, has no respect for God, and thinks God is irrelevant. Then they are not turning over control of their life to God, they are separated from God. God still might bless this person, or provide, after all God does what God wants, no one tells God what to do!
I agree with you completely, for the person that has no fear of God, they better have a lot of fear concerning the devil, and what might be done to them. The devil will have a free hand over that person.
Mike
So what you are saying Mike as you've said before is that if anything bad that happens it is the work of the Devil right? So let's just say you get stuck in traffic and miss your plane to China or worse still the taxi has an accident and you are hospitalized with a broken leg.......That would be the work of the devil right? If that is the case the Devil must have taken over your life right? So therefore your God whom you "trust completely" is not looking over you as his son, will you stop believing in him or would you make an excuse for him? And your divorce obviously took a fair bit out of you so where was God then....or is he a bit one sided and only helps those who give their life to him?
I don't fear God or the Devil in fact they never enter my mind unless I read this thread............
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Vince, There is more evidence showing the Bible and Jesus are real than actual evidence that evolution is real.
We have new and different strains of virusus - evolution?
The Bibile is real - if you throw it at me it hurts.
I agree Jesus was real - but the son of God as put forth by the bible. I think this is harder to prove then evolution. And as I have stated before, why could not, if there is a God, he use evolution as part of creation. I do not believe Adam and Eve were the first humans, just the first recorded Jews.
Oh and I was wrong about Jesus saying Know thyself. I believe that comes from the Greek temple of the Oracle
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Shaun I have heard this "There is more evidence showing the Bible and Jesus are real than actual evidence that evolution is real" Several times (only by holy rollers on TV) and I don't understand it? The question isn't between if the bible is real or not against evolution it is if the story of Atom and Eve is real against evolution. To that there is more evidence of evolution. Even going back to the original statement. Not so either. They do not actually know where Jesus was buried, Where cross was, or even when he was born. Further more they don't know where Moses crossed for their escape or where he saw the burning bush. No evidence that the earth was flooded in Noah's time. So I think that statement is conveniently used. For when it comes to science they disclaim it. But when it can prove parts of the bible they use science as proof?
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There is a story in the Bible that can be found in Matthew 19:16-21. It is called, The Rich Yong Ruler. He asks Jesus, "What good things must I do that I may have eternal life." Jesus tells him to keep the commandments. The young man said "Which one?" Jesus basically said all of them. Then the young man said "All these thing I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?"
Jesus said, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor..."
The word whole does not even fit here. So I went back to the Greek language that the Bible was written in a looked up the definition of the Greek word perfect was translated from. The word in Greek is teleios is from the root word telos. Telos means to set out for a definite point or goal. Teleios is complete as in various applications of labor, growth, mental or moral character. Complete when relating to full age, man, perfect.
A person could use whole but when your read the story and understand its implications in that the young ruler wanted to achieve the goal of eternal life or going to heaven he was looking for a results oriented solution. IMHO it appears he wanted to skip the process and get to the target point. Perfect. Whole has the implications as in a medical term as "not sick." It can also be uninjured, undamaged, or unbroken; undivided as in one piece. Integral not a fraction.
I kindly disagree with your assessment and I believe Jesus was trying to make the man understand to be whole (or as you stated - complete) -not perfect. You are right that the rich man was looking for a shortcut. He thought that once he reached perfection, his task was done. Because once perfection is attained, you do not need to do anything. But being complete, or whole still requires a monitoring of the state to maintain completness.
Jesus told the man that there could only be the One that is good. And for the man to enter life, he just had to obey the commandments, nothing more. But the man wanted more and from how I interpret Jesus, he mocked the man by saying to be perfect he had to sell his goods. If you claim that nobody can be perfect, then why would Jesus offer the man an option to be perfect? Jesus knew the man could not be perfect but by just following his 1st advice about following the commandments, the rich man could be whole.
For when it comes to science they disclaim it. But when it can prove parts of the bible they use science as proof?
Yes Vince I agree with first hand evidence by the Jehovah witness. I had one follower encouraging me to read a book denouncing evolution. In it they showed the problems with radiocarbon dating. I took palentology and anthropolgy classes so I also know its limitations. However this book I was reading said you could not trust radiocarbon dating at all for supporting evolution. But later in the tail end of the book when they were placing in time a religious artifact, they used radiocarbon dating to indicate its age.:huh:
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Tom, another word for fear is respect.
I would suggest that God is someone to be feared rather than to be respected.
In 1 Samuel 6:19, for example, God killed thousands and thousands of people simply because they looked at him:
And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter.
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Well now I'm confused Danny, do I fear God or do I fear the Devil? Just a whole big world of fear out there by the sound of it! Think I'll stay a non believer...........Nothing to fear & only myself to answer to.
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Shaun I have heard this "There is more evidence showing the Bible and Jesus are real than actual evidence that evolution is real" Several times (only by holy rollers on TV) and I don't understand it? The question isn't between if the bible is real or not against evolution it is if the story of Atom and Eve is real against evolution. To that there is more evidence of evolution. Even going back to the original statement. Not so either. They do not actually know where Jesus was buried, Where cross was, or even when he was born. Further more they don't know where Moses crossed for their escape or where he saw the burning bush. No evidence that the earth was flooded in Noah's time. So I think that statement is conveniently used. For when it comes to science they disclaim it. But when it can prove parts of the bible they use science as proof?
Trying to condense the information to put on this site would be futile and no one would want to read such a long post. Yes, not everything in the Bible can be backed up with doccumentible but there is so much that is. I would like to suggest a good book that accurately portrays where evidences are and where evidence is lacking. It is called The Bible unearthed ISBN 0-684-86913-6. I would recommend looking on half.com. They seem to have the best bargains.
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Fear, Fear, Fear, What is he going to do KILL ME? I'm suppose to fear this? Lets look at another passage, God Knows All and God has written the life of everyone. So when it's time it's time, No FEAR.
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Don't we have enough to worry about in this world, without having to worry about fearing God and or the Devil. All this hellfire and brimstone stuff should be left in the reams of history where it belongs.... all are just figments of someones, long, long past away imaginations..... You can make the Bible say whatever you want it to say, depending what you want to believe. How many times has that been proved!!
The only religious thing in this age, we should be worrying about are these bloody fundamentalists.... because they are REAL, and they DO live among us. And they can't be convinced that any other way, apart from theirs is the right way.
What do we fight these people with, ''Human Rights'' The fact they have no interest in any one's human rights themselves , doesn't seem to matter!! So, how about God, (or whatever else you want to call it), sorting this little problem out for us mere mortals?? That's not going to happen though is it!! And you'll have 1001 reasons why, too. None will make any sense to a free thinking person....
As far as I'm concerned, you can torture these animals from dawn to dusk, if it means you can save just one, innocent life from the information you can drag out of them......
David.....
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I've read over and over what i had posted here, where on earth do you see bullying and fighting anybody, where did you get that from??
It's no good quoting passages to me Mike, as i said, you can bend whatever it says in the bible to say what you want it to say......
I don't have any religious belief Mike, i use my life experience, my common sense, my gut feelings along with my general mindset to carry me on through life. and I've done pretty well so far....
Braveheart and his meaning of freedom, and the heaven and hell thing do, belong in the distant past. It's only people like yourself that won't let it pass away into history.
Where a confirmed Islamic fundamentalist terrorist is concerned.... you bet!! There not your usual common or organised criminals Mike, and treating them as such is plain idiotic, and won't get you anywhere. These are totally brain washed religious fanatics that have no respect for life, theirs or anybody else's, anyone and everyone is fair game to them. They use any weakness they find, to further there aims. So if it takes torture to get vital information out of them ...so be it!! Something like the Christians of the middle ages might have used.....Go and live in Saudi, or an equally Islamic country, and witness the hatred and the emptiness behind the eyes, then tell me I'm wrong!!
No i don't believe in turning the other cheek, ....I have to live in the real world, ....like it or not !!
David.....
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Luke 12:5
But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.
No, God will not kill you Vince ...there is something much worse then that
Ah yes Luke, He runs the diner down the road here. Makes one hell of a coffee. lol Glad you brought this up. Depends which bible you read.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
GOD'S WORD Translation (©1995)?I'll show you the one you should be afraid of. Be afraid of the one who has the power to throw you into hell after killing you. I'm warning you to be afraid of him.
King James Bible?But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
These are from the verse.."God Knows and Cares" sure sounds like it? God will cradle you in his arms and then snap your neck? Yeah! Good teaching.
Is this the "Do what I say not as I do" rule?
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I was going to take a sabbatical from this thread for a few days but Vince I can't after your most recent comment. A few pages back you made the accusation that we pick a little here and a little there suggesting that we take things out of context. Well you just did the same thing.
The word fear in this passage is the Greek word phobeo which means to frighten, i.e. (passive) to be alarmed; (by analysis) to be in awe of, i.e. revere, be afraid, (fear) exceedingly, reverence.
That one word can mean all of the things written above. If you read Luke 12:1-7 and look at it from an contextual view you see that Jesus is warning people who listen to Pharisees who practice hypocrisy openly. He goes on to say that the disciples should not fear(frighten or be alarmed by) their enemies but the are to fear (or reverence) God because He has control over your eternal life. The bible quite often plays on words.
Vince, please do not take this next comment as an offence but please understand. There is an old saying, "I am a jack of all trades but a master of none." Vince, you know enough of the Bible sometimes to be dangerous with your comments. In this most recent post contextually you were way wrong in your analysis.
When I do not understand what a passage in the Bible is saying, I reserve my comments and study it until I do have an understanding of it. Sometimes it takes a lot of reading and meditating and then read it again.
Why is it, as it appears to me, that you willingly accept the writings of people who contradict the Bible or say that it is a nothing more than a bunch of stories made up to scare people into submission but you doubt a lot of the Bible? Forgive me for saying this but I just don't get your logic when it comes to the Bible.
Or is it more tragic than I stated above, that you enjoy being controversial when it comes to Christianity? I.E. you try to yank people chains for fun?
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Yes there is the old saying.."I am a jack of all trades but a master of none." But the new Vince saying is "I am a jack of all trades but a master of All." I'm not going to make a list here but you can count on it being the truth.
"take things out of context" How else would I answer and debate what was written unless I use the same context?
"willingly accept the writings of people who contradict the Bible - but you doubt a lot of the Bible?" Because the people that write about contradiction of the bible have the same thoughts as I, that's why? Silly question? And NO I'm not yanking peoples chains but I do have some humor in it for I know it falls on deaf ears. None what to step back and see the whole picture. To afraid to? I find it ridiculous that one line says he loves and will never harm and the next says he will send to hell for what? Not saying a pray right? And FYI I didn't say "it is a nothing more than a bunch of stories made up to scare people into submission" those are not my words. But much like the bible it gets interpreted as seen fit.
You don't see the phases of Luke as a scare tactic? You don't see this as something invented? HELL? Something the jewish people never believed in? And going by the recent posts...why would we have to be afraid of Hell when the Devil is on and controls the earth? I think it must have been the first post I had in here that I said when things can't be explained they say it's devils talk, the devil made me ask it?
So going by the above posts If I don't fear death god will kill me and put me in hell? Am I reading this right? Nonsense. They did a great job of corralling peoples fears. No matter which way you turn your doomed. Even if you believe, pray everyday and do all they tell you to do? Your still getting your ass roasted? No Thanks, I'll take my chances without the stories of when people were foolish enough because of their ignorance.
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"HIC SVNT DRACONES" So stay on land where all that is spirtually recorded is all that we need. To question and seek our own understanding of that which is hidden imperils our own soul. Do not question, do not presume to know more than what was written before.
I do not fear God because he has given me the freedom to chose and question. Do I blindly follow after others because that was what was done in the past? Or do I brave a new path that might take me into other realms and discover that which has not yet been revealed.
I have a theory I wish to put forward for debate:
When anthroplogists study tribal groups they notice that when a tribe approaches 7 family groups in size, the first fulltime political postion is made (ie: chief). Close behind but usually second at around 10 family groups the first fulltime spiritual appointment is made (ie: shaman, priest). This leads me to believe that politics, or power, is more important then spiritual needs.
My examples:
I have just finished reading the first two parts of the book "The Lion, the Fox & the Eagle". Talk about a useless UN Nations. Anyways, I have always admired Israel in how they said enough is enough and took a stance against genocide of their people. So needless to say I was shocked when I read the book that Israel was supplying weapons to the Rwanda government when it was known that they were engadged in genocide. France was also supplying weapons and military intellegence. The author could only put forth his reson for Frances support because if the minority won, it had a history of anglo support. The French so detisted the Anglos that they rather support an evil majority even though it was spirtually bankrupt. For the Israels - no opinion was raised for there interferrance.
Why was Jesus killed? Because he was upsetting the status quo. It doesnt matter if Jesus was the son of God, whether he was right or wrong. Jesus didn't die because he claimed to be equal to God. Jesus died because politics will trump spirtuality almost all the time.
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Believe me when I say, I question everything especially what spiritual leaders say. This is what began my research into ancient documents, into the theologians of old who have stood the test of time, and eventually lead me into becoming a pastor. Religious viewpoint can easily be misrepresented without the church member even knowing it. Why are they mislead? Because they will not take the time to study and dig deep into the meaning of what is written. To understand you have to go back to the original language and see the definition of the words, you need to understand the context in which the passage is in, you need to understand the history of the period of which it is written, and you need to understand they personality of the person writing the passage.
In reference to the Luke text I gave the Greek definition for the word fear and put it into the context of the passage. Let me use this as an example. If I take two bare wires and insert them into a wall electrical outlet it will shock me. As I insert the wires I will have fear because I know what to expect and pain is one of the things I expect. Because of the understanding I have in reference to the results I respect electricity and will not put the wires into the wall. Both can be defined as fear but they are two different feelings and approach.
In the context of the passage mentioned Jesus talked about the Pharisees and their hypocrisy. The hypocrisy was intentional and they should fear God. On the other hand the disciples feared their enemies much like I fear electricity if I were to abuse its nature but Jesus told them not to. He taught them to respect God. When Jesus speaks of killing and casting into hell he is referencing the Pharisees who are intentional hypocrites and the passage is a warning to the disciples that this could be them if they fall into the same errors.
You mentioned that the Jews do not believe in hell. This may be true for liberal Jews, I wouldn't know but the Jews of the Bible did believe in it. It is written about in the Old Testament. It is in the Psalms, Proverbs, and Isaiah wrote about it; all Jews, in fact the people who wrote about it in the New Testament were Jews too. Satan is written about too. Look at the book of Job. He is mentioned in 1st Chronicles, Job, and Zechariah just to name a few.
Vince I didn't say Satan was in control of the earth. I do not believe he is. I do believe he torments people on earth. But hell and satan are not scare tactics that the Jews so not believe in, there is evidence in the Bible that they do believe in it.
Rhon, there aren't any dragons here. Even in Biblical times politics carried much more weight than the spiritual aspect. It was explained to me once a long time ago and I really do not remember what was said or that I read. There has always been tension between politics and religion. The only person in recent history that could balance them was Gerald Ford. Jesus' message to us was to give(render) the thing that belong to politics(Caesar) to politics(Caesar) and the things that belong to God to God.
As far as the issue of Israel supplying weapons to Rwanda, I don't know or have studied an issue about that.
Vince, there have been several people who have written against the writing in the Bible only to be discredited themselves.
Early in this thread I told you that I would try occasionally to hook two different passages together with a conceptualized idea of my own to help make passages in the Bible be better understood. If you remember I gave you the example of Cain marrying his sister. But I have never added to or taken away from the passages that are written. I don't think I would ever do that. This was the reason I responded to your first writing to the Luke 12 passage. If you only accept the writings of people you already agreed with prior to you reading what they wrote, then you really aren't as open minded and free thinking as you think you are. You didn't get where you are today for being closed minded in your learning, why would you be closed minded to the validity of the Bible. At one point in my life I was the same a you but I studied and found truth.
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**OK, so you are talking about Islamic fundamentalist terrorists, and the fact that they torture people, this is awful stuff, and very hard to deal with.
as you say some of these people are very twisted, and have no respect for life, or others, they want to wipe Israel off the map, and the US as well....
I am not sure where this came from, but I agree with you there too **
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Mike,
Where it came from Mike, ...is that i believe this is the only religious area that anyone needs to address in the world right now. And the only ''Fear'', that we need to worry about......
I'm using the Islamic fundamentalists as an example, they are after all, the main terrorist treat to this world at the moment. But if there were a similar Christian fundamentalist terrorist group, ....as far as I'm concerned, the same would apply to them too.
There just isn't room in today's world for such individuals that are trying to take the world back 1500/2000 years. These people want to disregard the progress the worlds made in those years, and to take us back to a time that's described in the Koran/Bible. Would any of today's sane free thinking people, want to live a life, as the Taliban had the Afghan's living before they were ousted?? That is, to my mind what fundamentalism is all about.... Oh, it's not just Israel and the USA they want to wipe away, it's all that won't bend to there way of thinking.......
As i have said previously, i have no problem really, with those that want to believe there is something else out there, other than what you can see and/or touch. So long as they don't pose harm to anyone, and don't try to ''Impose'' their belief onto others.
One thing i will clear up from my previous post, where i mentioned Saudis etc, I was talking mainly about the Imam's and other religious leaders there, absolute fruitcakes everyone of them.... but bloody dangerous fruitcakes!!
I may tell you a story sometime, of an event i witnessed in a Saudi shopping mall during an evening Prayer-time....haha!!
David....
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**OK, so you are talking about Islamic fundamentalist terrorists, and the fact that they torture people, this is awful stuff, and very hard to deal with.
as you say some of these people are very twisted, and have no respect for life, or others, they want to wipe Israel off the map, and the US as well....
I am not sure where this came from, but I agree with you there too **
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Mike,
Where it came from Mike, ...is that i believe this is the only religious area that anyone needs to address in the world right now. And the only ''Fear'', that we need to worry about......
I'm using the Islamic fundamentalists as an example, they are after all, the main terrorist treat to this world at the moment. But if there were a similar Christian fundamentalist terrorist group, ....as far as I'm concerned, the same would apply to them too.
There just isn't room in today's world for such individuals that are trying to take the world back 1500/2000 years. These people want to disregard the progress the worlds made in those years, and to take us back to a time that's described in the Koran/Bible. Would any of today's sane free thinking people, want to live a life, as the Taliban had the Afghan's living before they were ousted?? That is, to my mind what fundamentalism is all about....
As i have said previously, i have no problem really, with those that want to believe there is something else out there, other than what you can see and/or touch. So long as they don't pose harm to anyone, and don't try to ''Impose'' their belief onto others.
One thing i will clear up from my previous post, where i mentioned Saudis etc, I was talking mainly about the Imam's and other religious leaders there, absolute fruitcakes everyone of them.... but bloody dangerous fruitcakes!!
I may tell you a story sometime, of an event i witnessed in a Saudi shopping mall during an evening Prayer-time....haha!!
David....
David, I am not in or at least do not think I am in the group you and the new media call the religious fundamentalist group you speak of. However that being said, I do believe they have received a lot of press that is inaccurate. I also believe they create some of their own problems.
All through Christian history there have been people that give Christianity a bad name because of what they do. Even today in Jerusalem you can find the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox Churches sitting next door to each other, fighting with each other, and occasionally trying to kill each other.
If you read the teachings of Jesus His main emphasis is for the believer to get his own heart right with and have a personal relationship with God. He stood for injustice but it was against the Pharisees(in modern terms the leadership of the church) and the Sadducees (these men were the agents within the church that protected the high priest and were quite often had conflict with the Pharisees). Jesus taught people to respect the government.
In my opinion the fundamentalist have become the Sadducees in modern time trying to protect the church from the government. The government has, in my opinion gone awry with the issue of abortion in that the governments primary function is to protect human life. My disagreement with the fundamentalist is the way they are trying to change the laws. I don't have a problem with peaceful demonstration in front of an abortion clinic as long as it is legal. When it becomes illegal or they intentionally break the law it breaks the intent of Jesus' teachings. It is even OK to vote on a candidate based on how they would vote for abortion issues. (It's not advisable in todays political climate.)
Most of the fundamentalist I have met are good and well intentioned people but they don't necessarily want you to be forced to believe what they believe, they have a problem being forced to support and believe what you believe politically. With this one statement in mind who is wrong here?
The three basics of what Jesus taught is develop personal relationship, live and preach Jesus to the world out of the relationship you have with God, and disciple those who choose the path you have chosen.
Things you will never hear from me: Condemnation for what you believe, insult you because of what you believe, and forcing you to believe as I do.
I do have a political opinion and I may share a little of it occasionally but I submit to the authority that is over me.
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Shaun,
No, i don't classify you or Mike as fundamentalists. ...hahaha!!
Religions have been fighting amongst each other since time imorial, so that nothing new at all. ....What they have ever gained or achieved from there fighting, ....Nothing i can see, just the multitudes of deaths of their followers and there foe's.
When i talk about religious fundamentalists, I'm really only talking about the terrorist factions. Those that go with intention to kill and maim as many innocent people as they possibly can, with the simple aim of bringing their cause to public attention, and to instill fear into the populous. In fact anything that will in there minds, bring there aims a little closer.... (Rule by Fear Mindset)
Shaun, i'm not going to get into the abortion thing, ....That's a whole new can of worms, especially when religion get's involved with peoples personal rights,...peacfully or otherwise!! Save to say, we have similar demonstrations in the UK, but nothing like, ...in the fanatical way you have in the States....
Anyway, i hope i haven't insulted you or Mike or anyone else here, I'ts just my veiws on what's been written. ie, Throwing my two pennies worth into the pot.
David.....
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so I want to ask ..... What do you worship ?
cause we all worship something ..... so what is it for you ?
:huh:
Mike this is a groaner but I finally figured it out what Tiztom's religion is:
Tiztom says he likes fast cars so his religion (real engine) is turbo charged V8:icon_cheesygrin:
I actually miss his postings. I hope he did not do anything too bad to get banned but that follow up profile, if it was him, was a real low blow.
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Mike you replied with "establishing a relationship with Jesus is what brings FREEDOM, accepting Christ is the answer"
So God will send to Hell anyone that does not establishing a relationship with Jesus? So others that are not christians go to hell even though they went to church and did all the praying to God. And the same for all the people before christianity? I'm not the first to bring this up and this has been debated for many years. You (Christians) see it, know it, but won't admit it, it's wrong.
Shaun, Growing up in NY you can't shake a stick without hitting a Jew. Knowing so many my whole life you come to understand them quite well. I'm not talking of just liberal jews. A walk down 18th Ave Brooklyn you'd think your in Israel. So I'm not just guessing at what is written of Jews and Hell.
Jews do not believe in Hell, because by definition, Hell is the place for the ETERNAL punishment of the soul. Although Judaism certainly believes in a punishment for the sins committed in this life, Jews do not believe in Hell because they believe God to be forgiving, compassionate, and merciful. So, the idea of an ETERNAL punishment makes God look Cruel and prevents them from believing in hell.
It is not that I accept the writings of others against the bible. I agree sometimes with them more. I don't take their writings as my bible either. So let me make this clear. Some of the bible makes sense and other parts are off the wall nonsense. I will pick and choose, so it is not the whole bible. For instance they say Christ died on the cross? and what happen proceeding that. I believe that. It is not whether I believe or not I debate. It is the words "I have to or else?" Bad things will happen to me? The pope just broke his wrist, what do you suppose he did wrong?
What it comes down to is "I" don't take the bible as follow every word. According to the Catholic religion I have sinned because I have been to other religious churches and Temples. This does not bother me. I wanted to see and experience for myself, and learn what they had to teach.
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What it comes down to is "I" don't take the bible as follow every word. According to the Catholic religion I have sinned because I have been to other religious churches and Temples. This does not bother me. I wanted to see and experience for myself, and learn what they had to teach.
"HIC SVNT DRACONES" I guess we are a little similar in our view of the bible Vince, as I believe in exploring that which is hidden past the horizon. I believe most religions to be static and flat. They have mapped out their territory and use the fear of dragons and sea monsters to keep us ashore. The Phonecians used the same tatics about sea monsters so that they could keep a monopoly on their sea trade which gave rise to their riches.
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David, I am not offended by anything anyone has said on this thread. To be offended is a choice a person makes and I choose to not be offended. Also, I tried to keep my personal opinion out of the abortion issue. I think I did and yes it is controversial. I chose the subject because it is so closely tied to the fundamentalism issue. Your definition of a fundamentalist and what the American politician and news media consider a fundamentalist are different. The dominant terrorist group spoken about today is Islamic Fundamentalism.
Vince, You and I share the same opinion with regard to seeking and searching out what is true in our our mind. I was not trying to accuse you of believing writings promoting an anti-Bible agenda. What I was trying to say is that I do not understand why people do when there isn't credible evidence that what they are writing about is true. I struggle with that when there is so much evidence to prove the Bible is true. I have been very fortunate to be able to go to most of biblical places that have evidence is see it first hand. The most memoriable event when looking at evidence was looking at the dead sea scrolls in Jerusalem. I still get goose bumps when I think about it some 15 years later.
I do not have the marvelous experience of growing up with a lot of Jewish people but I have encountered many and have had favor with all that I meet. There was one who lived in Jerusalem all of his life and 15 years ago he was in his 70's, owned a motel and a small neighborhood synagogue was in his back yard. He kept on insisting that I was a Jew and I felt honored he said that. I worked for a Jewish family when I was in high school and a part of college. I have always discussed religion and I do not remember one time a Jew telling me they did not believe in Hell let alone a orthodox one. I can say that the concept of hell comes out of the Jewish portion of the Bible.
I don't think Christians are cagey when it comes to the issue of Christianity being the only way to heaven. It is an issue that even today I struggle with. What mpo Mike said about Eternal Life is a Christian viewpoint and he listed the passages but there is one that is very important in supporting this viewpoint and why most Christians will dance around the subject. Jesus said, "I am they way, the truth and the life. No goes to the Father except By Me." Now the way I understand this passage and the others mentioned by Mike is that the final decision decision is up to God.
This is all good and fun for me but I will be talking a lot less for the next couple of weeks. I am preparing my house to sell. I can't support it by myself anymore and I really do not want to rent rooms out. I am looking for a smaller house closer to the lake and out in the woods. Who knows maybe I could start my own cult!!! NOT! I like the peace of living out of the city and I like to go fishing every now and then. So I tell all of you this so that no one thinks I got my feelings hurt. I will check in when I can.
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Mike let me clear this some. I may say "You" but not meaning you yourself. I understand you do not speak for God. The "You" is for the writers of, believers of. I'm only pointing out the fact of the ups and downs, round and round that always happens from the words written in the bible. Just like the words written here in the forum. None of it should be taken to heart. As if it is the only words written. It's opinions and past down stories that is in the bible. The writers are story tellers and expressing there opinions. That's all there is to it. Believe what you want to or not. But "You" (or them) can not tell me I have too OR?
There is nothing anyone can say that hasn't been said before at least to me. I've said when judgement day comes then I will worry (maybe) about it? I've been told then it's to late. But how do they know? for sure. No one has actually been there and came back. Don't say Jesus did, I'm talking about the one telling me.
These writings are written for affects, like movies are today. Most of it was an assumption. A "maybe this happen". Jesus went into the desert "Alone", the devil came to him..... So who was there writing this down? What? Was he wired? They followed near in a black van? recording it. If Jesus told them this? no one knows or is it a story to glorify?
Lets take the movie about Howard Hughes. Good movie, close to the way he was. But when he was locked by himself in this room and rambling to himself? Who was there writing down these words? He had bottles of piss all over the place. Someone with his affliction would not do that. But the affects were good. People believed it all.
No need to write what Luke or Matthew wrote. I don't know if they were actually there? And like I have said for many years now, Who was writing this word for word at that time? How do they know or remember "every word" 50-80 years later? If you don't understand this? Then tell me this? When you were 10 years old pick a month and year and tell me word for word what conversation you had. Not assume what you said, Not generalize, the actual words. This is what your asking me to believe.
If religion help a someone become a better person? I'm all for it. I don't care what they want to believe as long as the result is a good one. That's all there is.
Shaun, I know what you mean. Good luck with the move. I'm looking into this myself soon. I'll take that smaller place near the lake if you don't? :icon_cheesygrin:
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Shaun,
I totally agree too, the Islamic Fundamentalists are the biggest threat to the world at this moment, not just to the USA, but everywhere..... Far more globally organised than other terrorist groups too!!
One thing that always amazes me is how Muslims can totally apply an almost 2000yr old book to a modern bustling world society?? The truth is, they can't, just like the bible can't be applied in it's entirety either.
Anyone that needs convincing about the Koran, need only to tune to Saudi TV Chan2 (English) during the month of Ramadan. And listen to the Imams answering questions on Do's and Dont's during the holy month of Ramadan. You can actually see them making things up in there head, as there going along, because, the Koran's teachings fulls on it's face in these modern times. Some of the answers to the questions asked are just SOoooo bazaar, and really just beggars believe. ....Also very entertaining too, better than many comedies being shown on TV in the West ..hahaha!!
David......
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David, if most people only knew how they thought they would would not take it so lightly. People do not understand that is by strength and fear that you rule. The Sha of Iran back in the 70's and most recently Saddam Hussein (sp) ruled by fear of death and both would kill a few publicly just to make their point. The Koran says that if your brother leaves Islam for another religion it is better for him to be put to death than to live as a non-believer. (I should re-memorize that passage again so that I write it correctly. Something looks wrong.) I once spent an evening talking with a Palestinian man in either 93 or 94. He told me that he Praised Saddam Hussein and would spit on Yasser Arafat. This was shortly after Iraq fired a missile and it hit Haifa. I said, "But if Saddam has his way in killing the Jews he would kill you, your wife and two children." His response? "Yes but if he killed only one Jew then Ala be praised." The look on my face must have been total shock.
People do not realize it is a religion of violence that for the fundamental Muslim their mission is to kill anyone that is not Muslim. I have heard but have not verified that Muslim martyrs get 70 wives in heaven. I thought they were saying it was heaven?
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Shaun I think you are wrong or misinformed? Only going by what I have heard but the Koran does not have anything in it saying kill others that are of different religion. Jews, Muslims and christians lived in Jerusalem with peace for a long time (hundred (s) of years). It is just the newer Muslims that interpreted it differently and have started there own crusade.
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Shaun,
All dictators, rule by fear of torture and death. Their has been and still are Islamic dictators that fear these new style Islamic fundamentalists themselves. A very good example is Gaddafi.
Now, ....Many may think that he promotes terrorism, and he probably does, but not Islamic fundamentalists. Far from supporting them he goes out of his way to stop them in their tracks. He is actually the BLOCK along the North African coastal countries. Which is why the West, in the whole left him alone, he was serving a need. To say he is ruthless is the biggest understatement anyone could make. I've seen him enclose complete towns with troops, no-one in, and no-one out....then go house to house through that town, (not always one town at a time, sometimes 2 or 3), looking for these people, and he normally gets them too..... The biggest threat to him was never the Americans or the western nations, it has always been the Islamic fundamentalist factions.
It may sound strange to you, but i lived /worked in Libya for 30 months, and i never once felt, in the least threatened or afraid. Somtimes i was traveling by car on my own, distances upto 900Km between the stage 1 project's maintenance facilities. (Great Man Made River Project)
Saddam was another such dictator, he also went out of his way to find and destroy these fundamentalists. Which is why at one point in time the West was supporting him in the wars with Iran. Haddad in Syria is yet another.
To be completely honest, the Middle East is one big powder keg waiting to go off. .... What many don't realise, is that none of them trust each other, not even close!! If they had of joined together in unity at the start of the 6 day war, it's debatable whether Israel would still be on the map. but that chance has now long gone for them.....
This is where the Islamist's have overcome that national problem in the Middle East. For them there are no national boundaries, their are no nationalities, they are Muslims, all held together by the common fundamentalist ideals, where terrorism forms part of those ideals to further there cause. We, the West had better watch out and start preparing for a very long conflict......
Sorry if I'm babbling on, but I'm also working on my computer here, and keep having to come back to say a bit more, ... but alas, my mind is jumping from one thing to another. I just can't multi-task, like i used too. ...hahaha!!
David....
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If they had of joined together in unity at the start of the 6 day war, it's debatable whether Israel would still be on the map. but that chance has now long gone for them.....
Now military history is more my area of expertise. For the six day war, they never had a chance, even if united. The Israels knew that an invasion was planned and they did a massive premptive airstrike to win air superority. Once they had it, it became a clean up operation. Thus the quickness of this war.
Now Yom kippur war was different in that the Arab's launched a surprise attack on Israel that for the first 2 days Israel was in deed taken back. But eventually Israel thwarted the invasion and started making in roads back in reclaiming territory. The surprising thing is that the higher level's of government new that a surprise attack was going to happen but decided not to call troops back on the eve of the big religious holiday. Why?
They got tired of defending first by aggression, because then the world countries, through the UN, denounced Israel aggression. So they risked their own county's survival to take world opinion out of their conscious, military descion making.
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Rhonald,
I bow to your superior knowledge. ..... To be honest, i could only remember the name of the 6 day war, couldn't for the life of me remember the ''Yom Kippur'' name. From some of my readings on that score, The Arabs didn't stick together throughout that campaign, so the strikes that were expected to be simultaneous, ... didn't happen like that. Then the grounds that were expected to be covered by those relevant individual forces wasn't, .... some stopped and dug in, ...waiting to see how far the other forces had gained. Hence, the eventual collapse of the united Arab invasion... As i said, they don't trust each other, let alone anyone else. It's the typical Arab mentality, they think all are like themselves and they don't trust themselves either hahaha!!
David.....
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so the strikes that were expected to be simultaneous, ... didn't happen like that. Then the grounds that were expected to be covered by those relevant individual forces wasn't, .... some stopped and dug in, ...waiting to see how far the other forces had gained. Hence, the eventual collapse of the united Arab invasion...
Yes you are right, they didn't push hard enough when they had their chance. Something else the Israel learned was that they use to allow females on combat missions, but where the Arabs would easily surrender, if they found out they where fighting females, then they rather keep fighting on then surrender in disgrace. Of course this would cause more casualties, hence the Israels stopped using female combat troops on the front lines.
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Since this subject of Religion is going back and forth , I thought this ( today's reflection from " The Awakening Heart " by Betty J. Eadie ) would fit perfectly into the resent posting's , about ones believes .
To change , I must desire change .
It was important that I not interfere with the spiritual belief's of another by impossing my belief's on them ... In my Zealous desire to be " right " and make other's " right " with me , I had impatiently and judgmentally stepped into their Path , tripping them , hurting myself , and accomplishing nothing . Now I no longer desired conversion for anyone . I saw that they must desire change for themselves ...
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Since this subject of Religion is going back and forth , I thought this ( today's reflection from " The Awakening Heart " by Betty J. Eadie ) would fit perfectly into the resent posting's , about ones believes .
To change , I must desire change .
It was important that I not interfere with the spiritual belief's of another by impossing my belief's on them ... In my Zealous desire to be " right " and make other's " right " with me , I had impatiently and judgmentally stepped into their Path , tripping them , hurting myself , and accomplishing nothing . Now I no longer desired conversion for anyone . I saw that they must desire change for themselves ...
A great story Arnold and I totally agree: How many times are we knocking at someone's door to let us in to hear our message, only to find out we were knocking at the wall. Hello anyone there....
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arnold I think that 'To change, I must desire change', was said by Abraham Lincoln, on one of his inaugeral speeches, he 'took' it from one of the many philosopher speech's made by Aristotle...:icon_biggrin:
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arnold I think that 'To change, I must desire change', was said by Abraham Lincoln, on one of his inaugeral speeches, he 'took' it from one of the many philosopher speech's made by Aristotle...:icon_biggrin:
As I love to read Betty J. Eadie books ( The Ripple Effect , Embraced by the Light , The Awakening Heart ) all New York Times #1 bestseller's , so it show's that some or many forms of speeches are copied over and over in other writing's , as you say is this .
Sometimes without knowing I'm sure , realizing you are using somebody else's word's in your Book . Would she owe Aristotle's Family some Money for this ? Can you imagine all the Law Suit's that would create . There would be no Barnes & Noble .
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Shaun I think you are wrong or misinformed? Only going by what I have heard but the Koran does not have anything in it saying kill others that are of different religion. Jews, Muslims and christians lived in Jerusalem with peace for a long time (hundred (s) of years). It is just the newer Muslims that interpreted it differently and have started there own crusade.
Vince, with all that I am doing right now I have not had the chance to check my copy of the Koran to respond about spiritual violence and the approval or lack of approval of. The peace you speak about in Jerusalem is only a perceived peace by military force. Palestinians are not allowed to move around Jerusalem at will unless they are under the employment of an Israeli approved transportation company. Each Palestinian employed goes through a considerable background check before hiring. If there is any question they are not hired and if the look to be sympathetic to the Palestinian cause they are fired. There are military check points where they do not allow people to enter into other specific areas of town.
Go to the temple mound and walk around like you are counting your steps, you will be escorted off the mound by Palestinian police. There are minor skirmishes nearly every day but they do not get reported very much any more. They are too commonplace. Each day tour guides call into the military intel. prior to taking tour groups out to look for hot beds of activity to avoid. Live in Peace? Only by force and even then it is not a guarantee.
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I'm to lazy to look it up right now but I was referring to there was a time maybe a thousand years ago when all 3 religions lived with no problems between them for a very long time in Jerusalem. Until one day some army (not roman) came marching in and took over and since then it's been a mess.
Of course today it is way different.
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Yes it was the Turks.
Islam was founded by Mohammed in 622 AD and the armies of Islam captured Jerusalem in 638. The Dome of the Rock was built on the site of the former temple. Jerusalem was now the center of Jewish, Christian and Muslim faiths. Jerusalem remained peaceful until the Turks began to persecute Christians and destroy churches around 1009 AD. The Turks captured Jerusalem in 1071 and closed all Christian sites. The Pope initiated the Crusades in 1095 to try and wrest the Holy Land back from the Muslims. The Crusaders captured Jerusalem in 1099 and massacred all of the Muslim inhabitants. The Kingdom of Jerusalem was established and fortified by the European Christians. They remained until 1291, when the city recaptured by the Turks.
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L.I.N.Y. the Catholic sister says if you go into any other Church or Temple it is a sin and you will spend eternity with your flesh burning and suffering all the days of time.
Come on Mike give me something more then some girl that wanted to make a video. Like someone that has studied the scripts.
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Well, as anyone who has viewed my FaceBook (http://www.facebook.com/nstanosheck), Twitter (http://twitter.com/feisnik), or Blogger (http://www.blogger.com/profile/15851654144745629758) profile knows, I am a former Russian Orthodox Deacon with an equivalent to a Masters degree in Divinity. But I respect all faiths and learned a lot by visiting Buddhist and Taoist (http://ecumenicalbuddhism.blogspot.com/) temples, and a Confucian School in China.
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Russian Orthodox, I haven't been to one. I've been to Greek Orthodox Church. I find them all interesting.
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As a casual observer the Greek and Russian Orthodox appear the same and I am sure Nik will tell you there is a lot of differences. I am sure there are.
Mike I was thinking about stirring the old pot up again, thanks for getting it started again. Vince, I started looking through my copy of the Koran when I mentioned the killing of family members but I got side tracked. I will try to look it up again. I've read it there before and am reasonably sure it isn't one of those late night pepperoni pizza dreams I've had.
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17 year old girl from OHIO whose father is threatening to KILL HER for converting to Christianity.
Mike have you followed up with what is going on with her? They had the whole story today on the news. Someone saw it as I did, "Fake Honour killing girl Sheds crocodile tears"
She says that she had to hide she was a Christian from her father? SO why did he threaten her? if he didn't know? She ran away to guess where? FLORIDA. To some pastor and his wife. How did she come to know this man? a Chat line? This is another Tawana Brawly (however spelt).
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Danny,
Who the hell's going to thank someone for let's say ....robbing them, and smacking them in the gob in the process?? Same thing isn't, ...you just ain't gonna thank anyone that does you a bad turn ...God or anyone else!!
David....
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MIke first that is about being in a war. Not killing your daughter because she is christian. Second, there is a spinoff of the koran just like cult leaders have done with the bible. To make themselves right. The true Koran does not say to kill anyone. The spinoff does and this is what the terrorist are going by. The rest of the Muslim world knows they are wrong for doing this. This is why you can not blame all muslims for what a group of them do.
Her father has said his christian friends know he did not say this. Yes maybe it's a weak excuse but he must be trying to prove himself against many that took the side of the daughter without knowing the truth.
And he did not say. "that if you have this Jesus in your heart, you're dead to me. You are not my daughter. I will kill you" this was something made up by someone. This is a court case and if it was said he would be in jail, which his not. I prefer to hear the true words used not what the media made up.
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Yes yes but that is living in a muslim state or territory not Ohio.
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Vince, there are Muslims who do not believe in violence and murder but the Koran tells the believer to do it. The corruption of the Koran is a story that has been around for many years. When you go into a Islamic nation and ask for a copy of the true Koran they will tell you there is only one to give. I've got one in English. You ask for a corrupted version and you will start an argument you do not want to get into. I know I've done it.
We have discussed the accuracy of the Bible several times in the thread and I don't want to beat a dead horse here.
The proof is in the pudding. I have ministered in several Christian churches in the middle east. The one that comes to mind is a Baptist Church in Bethlehem. When we arrived there the first time I was amazed that a church had an 8 ft wall with barbed wire surrounding it and a manned gate. The gate opened and the bus we were traveling in pulled in and the gate was closed immediately. We didn't get off until a person came on the bus and checked out each and everyone of us. They looked into the cargo holds and asked questions about what we brought with us. The people there escorted us into the sanctuary and we waited, and waited, and waited. Slowly people began arriving. After about 2 hours of waiting I asked the pastor if something was wrong. He told me that two people had been missing but now only one person was.
The pastor explained that since these former Muslims had become Christians that family member tried to kill them. He said that according to Islamic faith it was better to be murdered in the name of Allah than to believe anything else. When one person was missing in the church they sent people out to find them to make sure the missing person was OK.
One of the two missing was home sick. They sent members out to check on her and one stayed to make sure everything was safe. The other they were not sure about. We waited for a little over 3 hours until they showed up. It turns out that he was stopped by Isreali military at a check point between Jerusalem and Bethlehem. They went through his car and interrogated him because he looked like a familiar terrorist that the government was looking for.
I have experienced this on more than one occasion between Israel and Iran.
The story Mike is talking about I do not know about and will not comment.
Shaun
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I've got one in English.
The pastor explained that since these former Muslims had become Christians that family member tried to kill them. He said that according to Islamic faith it was better to be murdered in the name of Allah than to believe anything else.
Well you have the Koran in english, does it say that?
Back to this girl. I think she is using the American's lack of knowledge to gain the courts decision that it's alright for her to runaway to become christian. And live with another couple? (Who really knows what's going on there?). Why was this pastor online talking to a 15 year old? Inviting her to his home? Hey he must have gave her the address or picked her up? She's there now. Here in Florida the con artist capital of the US.
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Vince,
We in the UK, have about 3 honour killings and attempted killings every year, mainly Pakistanis...
It's real Vince, some of these Pakistanis come from the real backwaters in there country. ...How they manage to get into the UK in the first place, God only knows.
All sorts are going on behind closed doors Vince, the honour killings are just the tip of the iceberg so to speak. Young girls of 12,13 14,15 born as British citizens are being taken back to Pakistan and married off to dirty disgusting old men, that treat these girls as slaves and sex objects....
When School officials start investigating why these girls are not at school, all sorts of shit comes out. Now when a young Asian girl stops attending school the schools are informing social services and the police. Some of these girls are actually rescued and brought back to the UK.... but they don't go back to anywhere near the parents hometown.
The last case i heard about was a brother, a brother-in-law and the father Beating and stabbing to death his own daughter because she was going to marry an English guy. She had already left the family home, they came looking for her, intent on killing her. That was only about 8 months ago or so.....
David.....
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Danny,
Who the hell's going to thank someone for let's say ....robbing them, and smacking them in the gob in the process?? Same thing isn't, ...you just ain't gonna thank anyone that does you a bad turn ...God or anyone else!!
David....
I deleted my post. Discussion about religious topics always brings out the grumpy side of me *laughs*
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Sorry David "BAC" what does that mean? Enlighten me please:idea:
And yes I enjoy the Aussie's laid back mentality.
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Well you have the Koran in english, does it say that?
Back to this girl.
David E
It is a mystery to me, and to most of the World that a country like America, that started as a British Colony only yesterday, got independence, embraced slavery, killed off all the local indiginous folk, almost single handed won 2 world wars, rose to become the greatest economic powerhouse the world had ever seen, put men on the moon and invented everything from edible knickers, flavoured condoms, transistors and hydrogen bombs.....then recently, just about brought the world to its knees by massive and endemic economic mismanagement can also produce such a diverse and weird bunch of religious psychos who all have their own guarantee that their way of looking at religion is better than anybody elese's ??????
Vince, I checked the references an other than the translation issues, they are the same. When I read this coupled with what I have seen I am convinced that their plan is similar to the borg from Star Trek; assimilate or die.
There is no escaping that the Koran encourages murder for infidels.
As far as the girl, for now I will stay clear of the subject as I do not know anything about it.
David E, what can I say. You've grouped every religious person as back woods idiots. I will admit that there are some real goofy people in religion but there are intelligent and articulate and well educated people there also. I don't care what organization or religious group or political preferences people subscribe to, there are crazies and intellectuals in all of the groups. When people need speaking points to portray some organization in a negative light they turn to the crazies as examples for an unflatterring look.
I would ask you to rise above that kind of thought and communication and try to discuss issues and facts. This thread is here to allow a healthy debate pertaining to religious viewpoints. We hold no punches here but we also do not insult each other.
With that in mind speak on brother.
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Sorry to hear that David. I'm not sure why you feel that way but each man is entitled to his own opinion and religious beliefs. You can remove your own post yourself, you don't need a mod.
I just have one question though. :huh::huh: Does this mean we will not talk with each other in other threads? :icon_cry:
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There is no argument with Muslims in the Middle East, or with most of the others.
There RIGHT and your WRONG!! ....End Of Story!!
I know, I've lived and worked there for too long to know, I'd be banging my head on a brick wall, because as far as their religion is conserned there heads do have an in-built brick wall around it.... An ''Impenetrable'' brick wall!!
David....
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I am always careful not to group together any type of people. With my experience it is never "ALL" of them. Believe me when I say I have been the only white face in the crowd at times. And I still speak my mind and get invited to their parties and homes.
After 9-11 muslims went into hiding and I can understand that. At around that time I use to go to an ice cream shop nearby, still do once in a while. When the owner is there we have lite conversations. After 9-11 in the middle of talking he made sure he told me he wasn't a muslim? I just said it wouldn't matter. But this brings back the "All" thing. I can't blame All for the nutty few.
For the ones living in the muslim world over there in the middle east? I can't relate to them. I can't wrap my brain around that ALL are like that. I can understand that they believe they are right in doing these things? but I wish I could show them they're not.
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Vince,
And there lies the problem, you can't show them, and even if you could they would still not change there minds .... It's Sad, but it's also very True!!
David......
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I am always careful not to group together any type of people. With my experience it is never "ALL" of them.
For the ones living in the muslim world over there in the middle east? I can't relate to them. I can't wrap my brain around that ALL are like that. I can understand that they believe they are right in doing these things? but I wish I could show them they're not.
Vince, I agree with the all but it would not be unfair to categorize the radicals as most. It has been my experience with Arabic Muslims that they don't really trust each other.
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Shaun,
That is a fact, not just from your experience. None of the Arab Nations trust each other, basically because they believe they are like themselves, so in truth they don't even trust themselves let alone anyone else.
Now that shows you what real Muslim brotherhood is all about, ....Right!! ...hahaha!!
David.....
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Shaun,
That is a fact, not just from your experience. None of the Arab Nations trust each other, basically because they believe they are like themselves, so in truth they don't even trust themselves let alone anyone else.
Now that shows you what real Muslim brotherhood is all about, ....Right!! ...hahaha!!
David.....
Vince, this next comment is not meant to single you out but is based on my experience and knowledge and is not a racial elitist kind of thing either. What David5o and I said in the last two posts is true, it is sad but true.
I have several Muslim friends and have spoken with them privately and most agree with my assessment. I've asked them why they live this way and basically they tell me it is what it is.
It is mostly about their family and belief. I think I have mentioned this here before but in 1994 I was at a motel in Tiberius Israel, sitting with a group of Muslim men talking. They were bus drivers for tour companies there. One driver is a friend of mine and there was a new one there. I was welcomed to sit there because of my friend.
It was night time and we were close to the border of Lebanon and we could hear mortar fire and see little flashes of light. We were talking politics and religion and to many Muslims there is not a clear line of distinction between the two subjects.
I asked the new guy what he thought about Saddam Hussein. He praised him. I asked him about Yasser Arafat and he said he cursed him and spat on him. Since he was a Palestinian I asked why he felt that way. He told me, "Arafat is an American puppet who would sell his own mother for fame and money and would kiss a Jews a$$ to get what he wants." So I asked he why he liked Hussein and he said, "Because he wants to kill all of the Jews." I was shocked because he worked for Jews.
This was right after the Gulf War. Earlier that day we had drove through Haifa and through the area where Saddam Hussein's scud missiles had landed. Remembering that I made a comment/question, "Sir if Hussein had his way, he would kill everyone in Israel including you, your wife and your children." He looked me dead in eye and said, "If he killed all of the Jews too then I praise Saddam Hussein." I about peed in my pants. That night completely transformed my thinking about Muslims.
Most people in this world can't even begin to understand that kind of mindset and that is why we are having such difficulties.
I will stop right here because it will get too political from this point.
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Let those without sin cast the first stone.
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Mike,
I don't want to rain on your parade about the Christian idealogy. But there are more than just a few, Christian sects in America, that are more than prepared to harm, injure, and kill to get there own message across too!!
David.....
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[Most people in this world can't even begin to understand that kind of mindset and that is why we are having such difficulties.
After reading the book "The Lion, the Fox & the Eagle" about the Rawanda massacre and the genocide practiced in Bosnia encouraged by world wide apathy, I dislike the slant leveled towards the Muslim religion from these last posts.
It was supposedly Christian people doing the massacres. In Rawanda Christians against Christians, and in Bosnia Christians against Muslims. This same mindset that was mentioned above was in abundant supply by the perpetrators in both conflicts. When people have a hate on, they might use religion as a defining justification, but lets face it, justificators will grasp at any straw to defend their stance.
Quite a few leaders were as Shaun said in a previous post "but there are intelligent and articulate and well educated people there also" that planned and carried out the massacre. So intelligence and articulation, as well as backwoods idiots all contribute to our so called human condition.
Lets face it, we all can do evil, and it is the shadow side in all of us that allowed release, causes chaos and destruction. You can say it is in the name of any God or idealology, but evil starts and ends with us.
"Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows ... "
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Rhonald - we all have the capacity for evil, and we are all guilty of wrong doing to some extent.... no one is perfect, no one is sinless. Murder is wrong no matter who you are. If a gang of people are killing another gang, and they say they are christian .... well they are murders and liars. And they are not really follows of Jesus.
I agree - thus my reference to the shadow side of us. But I also believe our dual nature and salvation has nothing to do with Jesus. I believe our ability to express hatered and/or Love starts from our inner self. There are no outside entities that directs us down either pathway with hidden promises or veiled threats. We make the choice and we have badly used either religion or idealologoy to justify the crimes.
And as far as God Loves or God Hates......I believe if there is a God, then God is neutral. This sense of Love and Hate is our own immature development. If you look at the word EVIL then understand its opposite is not LOVE but is LIVE. And except for most plants and other smaller life forms, all of LIFE needs something to not LIVE in order to survive and LIVE itself. Our food source is from what once lived. So if there is a God that created this universe - then God requires something to die for us to live.
I remember reading about how early settlers coming to the new world expressed religious wonder at the glory of God's work by allowing dieases to reduce the native population. They saw this as God's resolve to pave the way for their settlements. So these where not murderes and killers commiting sins - but their views highlight the fundlmental fault I see in us humans and how religion can shape moral views.
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When a group says they want to kill, and wipe out another group, that is based on hatred. And that is not from God.
This is what I am saying. I'm just taking it a little further into all religions. Any religion taken from the bible does not have hatred towards others in it. It is those that have taken it a bit further that do this hating.
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Do you know something guys, I mentioned this in an earlier post but was in connection to the holocaust...it is people that are evil, evil is as evil does?...Not only was (whether you believe it or not) millions killed in the holocaust, but throughout the centuries since mankind was borne, because of the name of God
Rhonald mentioned Rwanda, what about the early Christians throughout Europe, or Christianity with in the Roman empire..were they just meglomanics or was there some sort of 'belief in God' that made them do it...It has happened for thousands of years and will continue, whether it is in the name of God or not...Until someone can stand up and say ENOUGH, what the bloody hell are we doing to our planet...:@
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So, it seems I have been a little abrasive on this thread and for that I am sorry. Rhonald and Vince if I have offended you some please accept my apology. However, I will stand behind what I have said about Muslims. I will say that I do have a few good friends that are Muslim. They are Pakistan, Iran, and Saudi Arabia. They all privately agree with me but in public would disagree which I understand. Unfortunately this is the times we live in and I think it is necessary for us to understand their mindset.
Let me clarify a point here. I do not think all Muslims are bad just as much as I do not think all Christians are good. Even the moderate Muslims of this world are terrorized by the radical extremist. The scary part of the extremist is that they can find support for their belief in the Koran. They also have unlimited resources financially to advance their cause. Many of the rich support them because they fear the reprocussions if they do not.
The extremist are not going to go away anytime soon. We cannot ignore them. Spain a few years ago decided to pull out of Iraq because they were fearful and didn't want any more conflict with them. What happened? They were bombed.
Ron, I do not like some of the things I have said about the Muslims but it does not make it any less true. Believe me I have lived with them and among them in Iran, years ago. My mother and I left as the Sha of Iran was being deposed just before the hostages were taken at the American Embassy in either 76 or 77 I am not sure right now. Several of my Muslim friends in Iran have been murdered there by the extremist.
One last point Ron. You mentioned that if there is a God that He would not hate or love that he would be neutral. Well, 1 John 4:8, "he who does not love does not know God, for God is love." So He cannot be neutral.
So if there is a God that created this universe - then God requires something to die for us to live.
I remember reading about how early settlers coming to the new world expressed religious wonder at the glory of God's work by allowing dieases to reduce the native population. They saw this as God's resolve to pave the way for their settlements. So these where not murderes and killers commiting sins - but their views highlight the fundlmental fault I see in us humans and how religion can shape moral views.
First sentence is a very deeeeeeeep subject but I may be able to answer it a simplistic way. God does require something to die for us to live. If we want to be Christians and want to follow him we must die to our own evil desires and take up His righteous way. I will tell you it is not an easy thing to do. I will spend the rest of my life trying to live this way and will fail sometimes but will pick myself up, ask for God's mercy and continue. This is a very simplistic explanation but it is much deeper that that.
Paragraph about settlers. It was the settlers understanding at that time that sinful people died of diseased but in fact the settlers were the ones who brought the diseases. The settlers had built immunities to the diseases but the Indians had not.
The settlers were survivors and had seen all kinds of plagues and diseases kill friends and family and they justified it by them leading a sinful life. Even today people try that kind of justification and it is simply wrong. Most of the time people get sick because they got sick. They came across the virus by some form of contact not because of sin and not because of satan; simply because of chance contact.
When a group says they want to kill, and wipe out another group, that is based on hatred. And that is not from God.
This is what I am saying. I'm just taking it a little further into all religions. Any religion taken from the bible does not have hatred towards others in it. It is those that have taken it a bit further that do this hating.
Vince, I understand and agree somewhat with the exception of the Koran. It clearly give the believer the right to take a human life because they are an unbeliever.
Do you know something guys, I mentioned this in an earlier post but was in connection to the holocaust...it is people that are evil, evil is as evil does?...Not only was (whether you believe it or not) millions killed in the holocaust, but throughout the centuries since mankind was borne, because of the name of God
Rhonald mentioned Rwanda, what about the early Christians throughout Europe, or Christianity with in the Roman empire..were they just meglomanics or was there some sort of 'belief in God' that made them do it...It has happened for thousands of years and will continue, whether it is in the name of God or not...Until someone can stand up and say ENOUGH, what the bloody hell are we doing to our planet...:@
Amen Bro. Preach it!!!!!!!!!! I have a hard time believing that God has sanctioned all the things that people have claimed in the name of God even current egomaniacs.
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Shaun I do not take offence in any of it. I'm not tiptoeing around subjects but I am trying not to offend anyone either.
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Shaun great post and for me, my post was not because I had taken direct offense. In fact, to be brutally honest with you, the Muslim religion scares the bejesus out of me. It was just that the last few posts start to give a slant to the easily misconscrewed - Our religion is better than theirs mentality. I just wanted to realign the moral compass that even modern so called Christians can act the same self serving way. I know about the other historic events that Robert refered to, but I chose more modern times to reflect the transgressions. As to the dieases, yes I am well versed in the reasonings. A great book "Guns, Germs and Steel" is a great source of information in this regard. The chapter intitled "How China became Chineses" has great value for this site.
And I still believe that if there is a God, then he could still be neutral. How? God could love a good game of soccer, but has no preference to which side wins (otherwise the Orange shirted Dutch would have won a cup by now). Neutrality and Love can coexist. And if I may be so bold, John got it wrong...he should have said...he who has not loved and lost, does not know God. Because understanding LOVE requires the knowledge of it and the knowledge of its absence.
Shaun I do not take offence in any of it. I'm not tiptoeing around subjects but I am trying not to offend anyone either.
Vince, when I read this post I suddenly had the image and song of Tiny Tim tiptoeing throught the tulips.
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Sorry to interrupt the bickering and fallacies, but since this is THE religion thread, may I ask all my brothers of Faith to please pray for my wife YanFei, that on 23 August, when she is flying from China to America, that she has a safe series of flights with no issues either on the plane or in transferring flights? She is extremely nervous about switching flights in San Francisco where she will also have to go through immigration, gather her bags and recheck them, along with switching airline carriers with only 2 hours between flights!
Also does anyone know how switching from EVA Air to United works in San Francisco International Airport?
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Sorry to interrupt the bickering and fallacies, but since this is THE religion thread, may I ask all my brothers of Faith to please pray for my wife YanFei, that on 23 August, when she is flying from China to America, that she has a safe series of flights with no issues either on the plane or in transferring flights? She is extremely nervous about switching flights in San Francisco where she will also have to go through immigration, gather her bags and recheck them, along with switching airline carriers with only 2 hours between flights!
Also does anyone know how switching from EVA Air to United works in San Francisco International Airport?
Yes Nik, I will pray for YanFei.
I've been in the San Francisco Airport and it can be a bit confusing for English speaking people. I would suggest that she go to the airline counter where she deplanes and tell the Clerk what her issues are and ask to be escorted to her next flight. They should do it. If the do not have a person at the counter that can speak her language they should be able to find one.
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Vince, when I read this post I suddenly had the image and song of Tiny Tim tiptoeing throught the tulips.
Funny you say that. Tiny Tim was a strange guy but was also very religious.
Nik I haven't been to the SF airport I've been to LAX but that was some years ago and it was domestic. So I can't help you there. BUT I have given thought to when my lady comes? and what to do. I have different plan games. In your case could you meet her there? and fly the rest of the way with her? OR just have a floor plan up on the computer and guild her where to go? Will she have a cell that works incase?
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Hey Vince, that is a great idea. I will have to remember meeting her at the port of entry.
And be careful of how you talk about Tiny Tim. He was one of the great spiritual leaders of our time. NOT!!!!! The only thing I remember about him was that he was kind of weird and had an obsession about being clean.
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I wish I could Vince, but I do not have the cash to meet her at SFO. :icon_sad:
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In reply to Irishman's post #70 :-)
"My biggest hurdle to overcome in Christian belief is the idea of heaven or hell. The idea in the "Matrix" movies that making life appear too good was not believable or desired by humans resonated strongly with me. It seems that heaven would be a pretty dull place after a while. Similarly, no matter how bad hell is surely you would become desensitized after a few eons or so.
How to reconcile this?,it seems to me that human life right now is closer to heaven than any idealised version, maybe this is heaven and we relive it over and over and get to experience all the good and bad lifestyles, pausing once in a while in the afterlife to consider the sum total of our experiences before trying a new one?(getting born again and living a new life).
Another concept that seems crazy to me is time and matter, where did all this stuff come from, and when did it start, the idea that it came from nothing seems daft to me but yet i cannot deny its existence.
So while at a certain level religion seems preposterous to me, then so does everyday life which is pretty hard to rule out the existence of!"
My own path was not dissimilar - teenage skepticism, training as a scientist, a burst of new age courses, a broken marriage...
Finally ended up immersed in "A Course in Miracles" (google) which made a lot of sense of the preceding chaos. It states that the entire phenomenological world is a dream: a dream that we are all separate for each other, and from our creator. As Neo says in one scene - shot in Melbourne - "They/we don't want to wake up". It states that really we can only experience two emotions - love or fear, and depending on which we chose, a world of dreams arises that depicts our choice. Mostly its fear; nuclear war, peak oil, ghenghis khan, iraq, various genocides- the list goes on.. All arising from a desire to be autonomous, self sufficient and disenfranchised from God. And hell, being defined as a place where God isn't, becomes what this world appears to be. The book itself then takes us through a series of lesson, one per day for 365 days, that are quite profound, and deal with how we block and limit Love, and thus attempt to block and limit the God who created love. Interestingly, many of the concepts used are similar to ancient eastern/chinese thinking (non - dualism).
The Course itself is published in many languages, including Mandarin. So I took my lady a copy, and read it alongside my english one. Very kindly, she humours me; it will be interesting to see how it unfolds. Much of the Course was written in iambic pentameter (Shakespearian blank verse) so if nothing else it will help her english, and, more importantly, improve my capacity to refrain from judgement :-)
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In fact, to be brutally honest with you, the Muslim religion scares the bejesus out of me.
Rhonald, you really need to get out more.
If you met some muslims you would realise that 99.99% of them are just honest and decent folks like anyone else.
If you met Indonesian muslims, Kurdish muslims, Pakistani muslims, Bosnian muslims, and so on, like we have in Australia you wouldn't worry about them at all.
I can remember when the IRA was going around blowing up things. Was it reasonable to say that Catholicism "scares the bejusus out of you" when that was happening? Of course not.
It's the same now. Just take it easy.
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In fact, to be brutally honest with you, the Muslim religion scares the bejesus out of me.
Rhonald, you really need to get out more.
If you met some muslims you would realise that 99.99% of them are just honest and decent folks like anyone else.
I can remember when the IRA was going around blowing up things. Was it reasonable to say that Catholicism "scares the bejusus out of you" when that was happening? Of course not.
It's the same now. Just take it easy.
Sorry Danny but I do have Muslim friends here and live in a community of immigrants (mainly Siks and Muslims). If you looked at the word I chose "bejesus" and this being a religious thread, and I claiming to be agnostic, you would see the jest of my pun. Although, as I agree with you, most Muslims are good and peaceful people, the religion caters to militant idealism. It requires great discipline and dedication to be faithfull. Heck right now is Ramadan and the 4 muslims I work with are fasting during our hot season. One of them is my second best friend. He knew and went to school with a fellow Muslim that a couple of years ago got picked up because he attended one of those training camps on the borders of Pakastan. The IRA - yes they used terror tactics, but as far as I know, they never claimed a Holy war or believed their path led to paradise.
The Muslim religion spread even faster then Christianity did. While Christians are not clean on there record of spreading their faith peacefully (the Crusades, El Cid) - the Muslim religion spread on the wings of war. Thus, next to the old Viking religion and Valhara, I view the Muslim religion as a warrior's religion.
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Sorry Danny but I do have Muslim friends here and live in a community of immigrants (mainly Siks and Muslims).
Well Rhonald, maybe I jumped to conclusions. Apologies for the unkind suggestion in my post. I'll try to be be more restrained in future.
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Sorry Danny but I do have Muslim friends here and live in a community of immigrants (mainly Siks and Muslims).
Well Rhonald, maybe I jumped to conclusions. Apologies for the unkind suggestion in my post. I'll try to be be more restrained in future.
No worries Danny, for my part I have to be careful with my play on puns. Sometimes discussions of religion or politics is like playing hot potatoes and I have to understand that by using play on words, I might get the wrong reaction.
Heck, after your posting I went to my Muslim friend and mentioned my view point on the Muslim religion and the response I got here. I asked again about that person he knew in school and I was corrected that he got picked up in Afghanistan. My friend said that this person he knew was such a party animal when living here and for the guy to do such a quick reversal, left him wondering how. So it is this sudden fanaticism that I was refering to when mentioning about having the son of God leaving my presence (bejesus out of me):icon_cheesygrin:
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Rhonald,
Your Muslim friend was wondering how the reversal came about with his partying friend?? I have a well founded theory on this. His friend was probably going through some bad patch in his life, and turned to an Imam, or some other fanatical faction, that could well have taken advantage of his state of mind at that time. So rather than helping him through his bad patch (so to speak) He/they, probably turned his small problem into a big one with the blame all going onto the western cultures and how they were trying to eradicate the Muslims from the face of the earth... The rest we know!!
This has happened to many a young man, and a good few women too. We all know, that someone that has a gift of being able to motivate and manipulate others, can do untold harm to the minds of the weak or the vulnerable. ...Especially if they can take that person out of his normal day to day life, and place him in an environment conducive to there fanaticism. Which is another reason why these Muslim fanatics are so dangerous to the world's safety. You rarely find any of the leaders of these groups, going in, and doing any fighting, or blowing themselves up, they get the weak and brain washed to do all that for them.....Guys exactly like your friends, friend....
David.....
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David5o I also share the same view as you do. As my post stated, "left him wondering how". I was pretty sure of some influential zealots in the conversion. My friend might have been confused but I do not think your theory so far fetched. Cleanliness might be next to godliness - but I don't think they were refering to scrubbing our brains clean.:icon_confused:
At this time I like to thank you for many a funny joke you have posted. It comes to the point now that when I share one of your barn burners with my co-workers I ended the joke with "David5o". Makes me remember that early police show Hawaii five-O. You are the Jack "LORD" of the just for a laugh thread.
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So , as last night was my last night in my own Bed .. as I'm leaving tonight for the Airport .
I thought I share about my pretty restless night and the Dream that I had .
I don't really know how or when it started , but what I remember the best ... is , I found myself in Bed next to my late Wife . We even started to make Love ( me knowing that I was married to Qing though ) , but before it got too far ... my late Wife handed me a piece of paper . Most of it was foggy but not the very bottom and it said in big print " I Love You " . Now as I loved this Woman for 30 year's
AND knowing I was married again , my Mind started to think ? Here I am in a situation where I need to choose Nancy or Qing ? Mind you , I was still asleep . How can I tell either one ... I must leave you for the other ? At exact that moment I woke up and of course , now there was no choice to make .
But , as I know ... every Dream has a meaning behind it .
I concider this a message from above , that this Woman ( Nancy ) still loves me and want's the best for me ... even though she is only here in Spirt . This is actually not the first time , since she has passed away ... that I felt her Love for me .
It's a great feeling , to go and see my Sweetheart / Wife Qing again , with what I see as Her's and God's blessing .
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Hmm, my lady has not mentioned religion, so I don't know if she is religious. We'll certainly visit a temple while we're together though, the Taoist temples in Hong Kong were absolutely fantastic.
I wonder if I should ask my lady if she is superstitious? What if she finds out my house number is 14? When I stayed in Hong Kong, the hotel didn't even have a 4th floor, or a 14th floor :s.
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Zen Poetry of Seng-ts'an: 6th Century CE
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The Mind of Absolute Trust
The great way isn't difficult for those who are unattached to their preferences.
Let go of longing and aversion, and everything will be perfectly clear.
When you cling to a hairbreadth of distinction, heaven and earth are set apart.
If you want to realize the truth, don't be for or against.
The struggle between good and evil is the primal disease of the mind.
Not grasping the deeper meaning, you just trouble your minds serenity.
As vast as infinite space, it is perfect and lacks nothing.
But because you select and reject, you can't perceive its true nature.
Don't get entangled in the world; don't lose yourself in emptiness.
Be at peace in the oneness of things, and all errors will disappear by themselves.
If you don't live the Tao, you fall into assertion or denial.
Asserting that the world is real, you are blind to its deeper reality;
denying that the world is real, you are blind to the selflessness of all things.
The more you think about these matters, the farther you are from the truth.
Step aside from all thinking, and there is nowhere you can't go.
Returning to the root, you find the meaning;
chasing appearances, you lose there source.
At the moment of profound insight, you transcend both appearance and emptiness.
Don't keep searching for the truth; just let go of your opinions.
For the mind in harmony with the Tao, all selfishness disappears.
With not even a trace of self-doubt, you can trust the universe completely.
All at once you are free, with nothing left to hold on to.
All is empty, brilliant, perfect in its own being.
In the world of things as they are, there is no self, no non self.
If you want to describe its essence, the best you can say is "Not-two."
In this "Not-two" nothing is separate, and nothing in the world is excluded.
The enlightened of all times and places have entered into this truth.
In it there is no gain or loss; one instant is ten thousand years.
There is no here, no there; infinity is right before your eyes.
The tiny is as large as the vast when objective boundaries have vanished;
the vast is as small as the tiny when you don't have external limits.
Being is an aspect of non-being; non-being is no different from being.
Until you understand this truth, you won't see anything clearly.
One is all; all are one. When you realize this, what reason for holiness or wisdom?
The mind of absolute trust is beyond all thought, all striving,
is perfectly at peace, for in it there is no yesterday, no today, no tomorrow.
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David K,
What are YOU trying to say with this?
Shaun
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:icon_biggrin: I've got this absolutely dishy doll in China, whos wearing my ring (and my heart) and I'd like it to endure - as would she. So I thought to learn more of things chinese (so she would feel at home here in NZ ), and in particular the chinese notions of spirituality. I came across this, which in my view is pretty evolved for 1400 years ago, and does give some pointers to peace.. the peace that I would like to share with my beloved... and not just now, but forever. HTH
Briefly:
Seng-ts'an, who lived in the late sixth century, was the third patriarch of Zen in China. According to one legend, Seng-ts'an was suffering from leprosy when he met the second patriarch Hui-k'o, who encountered him with the words, "You're suffering from leprosy; what could you want from me?" Seng-ts'an is supposed to have replied, "Even if my body is sick, the heart-mind of a sick person is no different from your heart-mind." This convinced Hui-k'o of the spiritual capacity of Seng-ts'an; he accepted him as a student and later confirmed him as his dharma successor.
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David K,
If your lady is Buddhist/Taoist I can understand studying their religion to learn more about her. If you are wanting to study things Chinese then there are great lessons on history to study.
If you break down, for the purpose of study, the poem you put in this thread there is a lot of conflict of thought. It talks about becoming unselfish and removing personal prejudice. It is a poem of conflict with oneself. To do as is suggested in this poem is to allow or to open oneself for what they call brainwashing. It suggests the beginning of chaos.
Personally I cannot see how this poem would help anyone achieve harmony or peace in their life.
IMHO
Shaun
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David K,
If your lady is Buddhist/Taoist I can understand studying their religion to learn more about her. If you are wanting to study things Chinese then there are great lessons on history to study.
If you break down, for the purpose of study, the poem you put in this thread there is a lot of conflict of thought. It talks about becoming unselfish and removing personal prejudice. It is a poem of conflict with oneself. To do as is suggested in this poem is to allow or to open oneself for what they call brainwashing. It suggests the beginning of chaos.
Personally I cannot see how this poem would help anyone achieve harmony or peace in their life.
IMHO
Shaun
[/i]
Hi Shaun
I guess I'm just going thru my 'fascination with all things chinese' phase.... somewhere in that 5000 years of history there is a lot of wisdom.... I've been looking thru the development of science in China and it makes fascinating reading.... smallpox vaccination at 1100ish AD for example.. and early seismographs, the compass, paper production, gunpowder.. the list goes on ... 7 A4 pages in fact, that I'm happy to EMAIL to anyone who is interested...or who has a lady that would appreciate their partner being interested :idea:
As for the poem, I guess we see what we want to see.. for me it is an early example of non dualism (google for refs) ... The sort of "Nothing's wrong with right now until we start thinking" perspective...
Part of my motivation is the wish to share with my beloved the deeper, eternal things of life... As I've posted elsewhere, I want to take her dancing (www.ceroc.co.nz) but it would be kinda nice if we could dance together with our Souls, not just with our bodies... hence the interest :angel:
"Joy is Peace dancing.... Peace is Joy at Rest"
:icon_biggrin: David K in Auckland
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David K,
If your lady is Buddhist/Taoist I can understand studying their religion to learn more about her. If you are wanting to study things Chinese then there are great lessons on history to study.
If you break down, for the purpose of study, the poem you put in this thread there is a lot of conflict of thought. It talks about becoming unselfish and removing personal prejudice. It is a poem of conflict with oneself. To do as is suggested in this poem is to allow or to open oneself for what they call brainwashing. It suggests the beginning of chaos.
Personally I cannot see how this poem would help anyone achieve harmony or peace in their life.
IMHO
Shaun
Hi Shaun
I guess I'm just going thru my 'fascination with all things chinese' phase.... somewhere in that 5000 years of history there is a lot of wisdom.... I've been looking thru the development of science in China and it makes fascinating reading.... smallpox vaccination at 1100ish AD for example.. and early seismographs, the compass, paper production, gunpowder.. the list goes on ... 7 A4 pages in fact, that I'm happy to EMAIL to anyone who is interested...or who has a lady that would appreciate their partner being interested :idea:
As for the poem, I guess we see what we want to see.. for me it is an early example of non dualism (google for refs) ... The sort of "Whats wrong with right now until we start thinking" perspective...
Part of my motivation is the wish to share with my beloved the deeper, eternal things of life... As I've posted elsewhere, I want to take her dancing (www.ceroc.co.nz) but it would be kinda nice if we could dance together with our Souls, not just with our bodies... hence the interest :angel:
"Joy is Peace dancing.... Peace is Joy at Rest"
:icon_biggrin: David K in Auckland
David K,
I was trying to figure out where your head is at with this poem. I'm not sure what your beliefs are but when it came to that subject with the woman I am talking with quite a bit, Pinky, told me she didn't have any beliefs in religion. So we talk about it quite a bit and she is interested in my religion.
I am a Christian but I do not assume that every western man is. In fact we have what some might call a devout atheist on this site and I would say we are friends. We are brothers for sure.
My goal is to treat all beliefs the same and be able to discuss differing beliefs without judgement or ridicule. So, far as the poem is concerned I find the poem in conflict with my Christian beliefs but it goes deeper than that in that I find that the poem is in conflict within itself.
I wholeheartedly agree with your statement of learning about your womans history and culture. It is important to them and should be to you because it is part of the making of who she is. Plus there is a lot of fascinating things about Chinese history and their culture.
As you do your research I have a suggestion for you. It would be very good for you to determine what your belief system is prior to digging into the religious beliefs in China. You need to draw the boundaries of what you believe so that as you read about the different religions and beliefs in China or any other place for that matter. Then you use your belief system to filter what you are reading to help determine acceptance or not. This way you do not find yourself dragged off into something that later you realize not only do you not believe it but that you didn't waste your time in studying it beyond the system that you already have.
Shaun
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David K,
Why not start a thread here on the Forum, and post these 7 pages of Chinese history for ALL to see, i'm pretty sure most, if not all will be interested in reading your material on Chinese history. I know that i will!!
David.....
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David K;
Thanks for the poem. I find wisdom, peace, and a path to knowing my inner self from this poem. I like the opening when it says by letting go of our own prejudices and stubborn beliefs; only then can we gain enlightenment and inner peace. There is no road map that fits all people, and not everyone travels the same speed, but I do really like what you posted. If you believe in the history and migration of the human race; this philosophy is close to that of the Native American Indians, which are to be related to the Chinese.
Thanks for the post.
Buzz
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I am a Christian but I do not assume that every western man is. In fact we have what some might call a devout atheist on this site and I would say we are friends. We are brothers for sure.
Shaun
I know who you are talking about here !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.."devout" aethiest....Oxymoron !!!!!
And you got it right...Friend/Bro:icon_cheesygrin::icon_cheesygrin::icon_cheesygrin:
DavidE
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Why not start a thread here on the Forum, and post these 7 pages of Chinese history for ALL to see
Hi David - Happy to do so - But I dont seem to have the authority to start a thread, and there seems to be no cache where one can store files.
If all else fails, I'll post them here and Maxx or Arnold or someone further up the tree can shift them around as they see fit :icon_cool:
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I am a Christian but I do not assume that every western man is. In fact we have what some might call a devout atheist on this site and I would say we are friends. We are brothers for sure.
Shaun
I know who you are talking about here !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.."devout" aethiest....Oxymoron !!!!!
And you got it right...Friend/Bro:icon_cheesygrin::icon_cheesygrin::icon_cheesygrin:
DavidE
Hey David,
Weren't you going to stay away from this thread?
Couldn't resist could you!!! :icon_cheesygrin::icon_cheesygrin:
But I consider you a good friend. Hopefully some day we can meet up in China but you can forget about meeting in Taiwan. :icon_cheesygrin::icon_cheesygrin:
Shaun
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David K,
I am a Christian but I do not assume that every western man is. In fact we have what some might call a devout atheist on this site and I would say we are friends. We are brothers for sure.
In the last census in NZ I put myself down as "borne again heathen"; I have a background in science and have found it difficult to subscribe to any formalised religion :icon_biggrin:
My goal is to treat all beliefs the same and be able to discuss differing beliefs without judgement or ridicule.
My goal is to relinquish all beliefs that imply a believer and a believed, and simply experience the present/presence
As you do your research I have a suggestion for you. It would be very good for you to determine what your belief system is prior to digging into the religious beliefs in China.
Hmmmm... Bit late for that..see above...My head may have already irredemably turned to Jello....
I might be seeking to relax into happiness rather than struggling to fit new wine into old wine bottles ...
Shaun
David K:icon_cool:
David K;
Thanks for the poem. I find wisdom, peace, and a path to knowing my inner self from this poem. I like the opening when it says by letting go of our own prejudices and stubborn beliefs; only then can we gain enlightenment and inner peace. There is no road map that fits all people, and not everyone travels the same speed, but I do really like what you posted.
Buzz
Thanks Buzz -
You might be interested in this - it also has an oriental origin.....
I can see I have a lot to learn from China.
And I know a fabulous lady who wants to teach me these things and more :icon_biggrin:
-----------------------------------
Manifestations Of Mind
Everything that appears is but a manifestation of mind.
Even though the entire external inanimate universe appears to you, it is but a manifestation of mind.
Even though all of the sentient beings of the six realms appear to you they are but a manifestation of mind.
Even though the happiness of humans and the delights of the Devas in heaven appear to you, they are but manifestations of mind.
Even though the sorrows of the three evil destinies appear to you, they are but manifestations of mind.
Even though the five poisons representing ignorance and the passions appear to you, they are but manifestations of mind.
Even though intrinsic awareness which is self-originated primal awareness appears to you, it is but a manifestation of mind.
Even though good thoughts along the way to Nirvana appear to you, they are but manifestations of mind.
Even though obstacles due to demons and evil spirits appears to you, they are but manifestations of mind.
Translated into English from the original Tibetan via:
http://www.mandala.hr/1/self-naked.html
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A minister dies and is waiting at the Pearly Gates.
Ahead of him is a guy who's dressed in sunglasses,
a loud shirt, a leather jacket, and jeans.
Saint Peter addresses this guy,
"Who are you, so that I may know whether or
not to admit you to the Kingdom of Heaven?"
The guy replies, "I'm Joe Cohen, taxi driver, of Noo Yawk City."
Saint Peter consults his list.
He smiles and says to the taxi driver,
"Take this silken robe and golden staff and enter the Kingdom of Heaven."
The taxi driver goes into Heaven with his robe and staff.
Then it's the minister's turn.
He stands erect and booms out,
"I am Joseph Snow, pastor of Saint Mary's church
for the last 43 years."
Saint Peter consults his list. Then he says to the minister,
"Take this cotton robe and wooden staff and enter the Kingdom of Heaven."
"Just a minute," says the minister quite upset.
"That man was just a taxi driver and he
gets a silken robe and golden staff. How can this be?"
"Easy"says Saint Peter. "Up here, we work by results" .
"While you preached, people slept; while he drove, people prayed."
:angel:
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Hmmmm...... interesting Mike.
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Michael L Maines
I have no right, or inclination to ever visit this topic...that you all know.
From a sense of loss, pain, anger and confusion will somebody explain to me why it is determined that MLM should pay the ultimate price over and above the vast number of no-hopers, addicts and worthless scum who freely and without mind, remove such a decent Man from our World.
If anybody wants to reply..."it is the Will of God"...please dont bother.
Who was "looking after" such a Man and allowed him to come to such harm ? Who was not, is the more relevant point.
Who can choose to leave a greiving family, who never did anyone harm and who could not possibly deserve such pain in their life.?
Who can tell me why such an all powerful Deity as you postulate did not stop that bullet...because I surely know that such a Man did not deserve to get hit.
Who can tell me why a Man, pursuing only the safety and sercurity of all his fellow citizens did not have the ultimate protection.
What therefore is the price of honour and justice...violent death ?? and a lifetime of regret and anguish for the innocents he left behind ?
Written in considerable pain.
David A. Evans
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David, as someone who doesn't have any religious beliefs I can understand exactly where you are coming from.
Every life is so precious, I wish I could believe a good man like him was going to a "better place", but I don't and that makes it harder to accept his passing. I'm genuinely upset over it.
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David, I am at a loss to explain away anyone’s pain and suffering. Give me a second to give my credentials and then I will give my answer. I am the son of a minister, as well as my grandfather. I grew up in and around the bible my whole life. I am a father. I lost my 28-year-old son in a terrible accident a few years back. I am a Registered Nurse working in a Hospice unit that sees, 8 to 10 people die every week.
The best answer I can give is from a psychiatrist friend that gave me some advice many years ago.
He said: All human beings are born with a basic human value of 1. Regardless of wealth, education, fame, or any other of life’s wonders, each of us has the same value. Does the rich man on the hill have a greater need for air than a prostitute on the street?
Remember a few years ago, there was a song “Life’s a Dance”. Well I have that as my core belief and soft blanket in the night when the demons seem to call.
Why was Mike taken and the killer will have many years of their life left? I don’t know, but I believe that we cannot sit in judgment of one another and collectively say who has the right to live and who should be put to death. This has been tried in different times and the results have been horrific.
I watch young people die of cancer every week and have no answers to this question when their parents ask. I have no answer for myself when I ask why my son was taken and I would have gladly forfeited my life for his if given the chance. David, there is no answer that anyone has put forth that makes sense. I used to think that at life’s end we would have the answers, but as the end nears, I do not think even in death will any of us ever be able to truly answer your question.
Buzz
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I saw a movie last weekend - "The invention of lying (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1058017/)", it is a comedy but the whole religion thing was very well done in my opinion.
It probably would offend people with strong Christian beliefs but it certainly struck a chord with me.
Its times like these when I think about when the main characters mother is passing what he says to her..
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David E,
I do understand how you feel. I feel something near the same pain as you. I can't say the same because we have had different experiences in life. It seems I have been asking God why a lot lately about various issues in my life but I know He is still God.
What you are asking to answer correctly would take volumes of writing but I wont do that here.
I was having a discussion with a friend just this morning about this very subject. When people tell you "it is the will of God," unfortunately they are speaking, for the lack of a better word, crap. They are trying to be spiritual when they themselves don't even know. I have heard that excuse all of my life.
The will of God is that all man would be saved; that's all, nothing more nothing less. What determines whether the will of God is done is man. He either submits to the will of God or he does not. Again, nothing more and nothing less. One of the most beautiful things but at the same time the most frustrating thing is the God give all man free will. We have free will to believe in or not believe in God. He give us free will to follow or not follow Him. He give us the opportunity to live right or live wrong. But when we have free will we also get with it all of the evil and bad things that go with it. Since it is our choice our personalities can range from a totally good person to a totally evil person and every possible combination in between those two dynamics.
Don't worry David I am getting to it. Since God gave us free will unfortunately we get many bad things with it. Sickness, wickedness, and death. These are not words of comfort in a time like this but as they say; "it is what it is." Because of these dynamics in life bad things can happen to good people. It only becomes an issue when this happens. If the rolls were reversed people would not be nearly as upset as they are right now.
Mike was one of the best when it came to good people. The one thing I do know was that he believed in God. That changes perspective when looking at these issues. But can I explain it? Not really. All I can say is that it hurts, I'll miss him, but I will see him again. Some day when life is over for me I will have a better understanding of it. I can live with that.
This is not an issue of what God did or did not do but and issue that we live in a cruel and evil world and how we respond to these tragedies is what makes the difference. This may not answer your question in a manner that you would like but David, I would never BS you. This is simply my understanding of these issues.
Hope it helps. If not PM me and we can talk more.
Shaun
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An interesting perspective Shaun. Personally, I appreciate that you didn't put out the "Will of God" line. What you wrote was well thought out. I know you were not directing your post towards me, but I appreciate when someone can honestly answer something with I don't know...or as you put it:
But can I explain it? Not really
This is a strange time for our forum...I never considered that we would ever face the loss of a member...and personally, I am at a loss as to what to do about it. I realize, there is nothing I can do about it.
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This is a question without an answer. Since the dawn of time this question "Why" had been bounced around. For many years now I have not feared death. Not that I want to die but I know when your number is up? That's it.
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Shaun and Buzz
I am sure you (and Vince) understood that my "why" question was rhetorical....whatever creed we follow, never can we know that particular answer.
Irish has similar question marks in his head too !
My post was made without much thought for the "grand scheme of things"...more from the sheer pain of being a witness (albeit at long distance removed) to such mindless, pointless waste of a good Man.
And to Vince....I dont know much about death...i've never done it....but it is not something I particularly fear or otherwise. Maybe you are right...when it is "written" our time will come. But that does not lessen the futility of a death like Mikes'
I thank you for your honest replies, you solved no problems and none of us have any answers...but it helps in the grieving to simply talk about it with people who know the scenario...and whom I respect.
DavidE
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Surely Mike was one of the guys we knew here. I survive on facts. What do we really know about him? No info anywhere of a shooting like his. Hospitals don't have a record of his admittance, I called. No Police report filed. Was that his real name? His name isn't in any paper or obituaries or even close to his age and looks. His name is not recorded anywhere on/in a business. There should be something? That's the Facts.
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Two glasses of wine and some shedded tears. Untill the morning comes I will mourn his passing shadow. His profile picture(of Geronimo) will now forever haunt my imagination. When he wrote I felt strength and wisdom from his words. He also acted upon what he believed. A warrior in spirit and in deeds - he was homeland security.
Maybe, if there is a God, he will not answer why, but at the very least, we were graced by Mike's presence. He was a gift for us and with the pain of his passing our only answer can be that he made a difference.
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Ron,
God's only response would be to Mike and it would be, "Welcome home." I totally agree with your last sentence and yes he was a gift to all he met. The story rabbit shared with us I think was the epitome of who he was.
David E,
I really didn't think that your questions needed answering as much as I needed to say what I said, so all is good.
Shaun
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Thats very good thanks Mike.
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Why does a good man, that never harmed anyone, that brought up a family with four kids and never said an angry word to any of them....get struck down with a painful drawn out disease?
I try to reconcile this with my firm every cloud has a silver lining belief. Only thing i can see here is that its focuses the heck out of his children to achieve some milestones that would make him happy and proud of us..then again isn't pride a sin?
I saw - The Invention of Lying (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1058017/) recently and it plays heavily on my mind.
I dunno how it would play with some here but it stuck home to me. You'll know what I mean if you saw it and the premise where it all starts from.
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In 2006 my best friend died of Prostate Cancer.
In June he entered hospital for some tests and never walked from hospital again. I would visit for an hour or two every day and I was amazed at the spiritual strength he possesed. He was a solid Christian and held firm beliefs of his destiny. His attitude was that he wanted to live his life as if there was a God and find in passing there was none rather than live his life as if there was no God and find in passing there was one.
Each day he would have many more visitors than the average patient and this culminated on his 51st birthday when gathered in his small ward was a total of 39 people such was the love he gave and received. From that time onwards they moved him into a side room and I was at the hospital every day from 8am - 8pm and his wife was there from 8pm - 8am to ensure when the time came he was not alone. He battled on for another three months and in the last two weeks I was praying for his pain to end. I wanted the Lord to cure him or to take him to remove the pain. I made that prayer many times a day as I watched my friend go from a strapping man to a human skeleton.
This was just a normal man whom had a talent for training singers and asked for no payment from them. They all came back. Those from TV and recording artistes - they all came to see the man that gave to them freely. He would say that Jesus gave freely so why can he not do the same. His talent was provided by the Lord and he gave it freely.
Everyday I would shepherd 20, 30 or more visitors a day in and out of the small room. Prays were said by the minute. Singers would come and sing and even doctors and nurses would come and listen. When there was no visitors he would want me to read from the Bible to him. Each one would come in and emotions rocketed and as each departed they left a little bit of that emotion went with them and I would each my home every night and be emotionally drained.
This went on for three months until the Lord took him home. Before he died I found a recording I had made of him as lead singer on his beloved choir that he formed some years before and I put it on CD and that became a mini hit around the Hospital.
This man had touch some many lives in his time with his belief, both before and during his illness that we had to find the largest Church in our district of London. For him the Church was overflowing and the service had to be relayed outside to those who could not get in.
And all those singers he had helped in the past and who now earned thousands through his help - they were all there making it the most valuable choir that has ever been assembled. And they were all there for the love of two - one being God the other being the man I was proud to call My BEST FRIEND.
Willy
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Willy, what were your beliefs afterwards?
I understand if you don't want to answer.
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Willy, what were your beliefs afterwards?
I understand if you don't want to answer.
It had a profound effect on me. The fact that at that time someone could be so content with knowing that they were going to die. I lost all my fear of death at that point. I used to lay in bed at night and tried to cope in my mind and how I could no longer exist. That has now gone.
I do believe that there is a place awaiting me and I make sure that even with the way I have been living up till now the Lord will forgive me provided I ask him every day.
I now live by my late friends maxim. I attend church and have found a church in the City where I am now living.
I have extra strength now because my lady is a firm church going Christian.
Believe it or not but I have stood and preached, in London, for an hour or so at a time on Death since.
Willy
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Believe it or not but I have stood and preached, in London, for an hour or so at a time on Death since.
It embarrasses me to say, Willy, but when I was at university I used to preach (some would say shout) at people passing by *laughs*
I would preach still, if I thought it was the truth. But alas, I don't.
I have always thought that if it really was the truth, I would want others to know about it too.
And so now mostly, I keep my thoughts and doubts to myself.
But you're a good fellow.
So I wish you all the best.
I think everyone should walk according to the light they have received.
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Why does a good man, that never harmed anyone, that brought up a family with four kids and never said an angry word to any of them....get struck down with a painful drawn out disease?
I try to reconcile this with my firm every cloud has a silver lining belief. Only thing i can see here is that its focuses the heck out of his children to achieve some milestones that would make him happy and proud of us..then again isn't pride a sin?
I saw - The Invention of Lying (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1058017/) recently and it plays heavily on my mind.
I dunno how it would play with some here but it stuck home to me. You'll know what I mean if you saw it and the premise where it all starts from.
Ronan,
Many people struggle looking for the answer that you are looking for right now. There really isn't one good answer that I could give you. The question is much more complex than you could imagine and the answer is also dependent on the person who has been stricken with a disease. But the humanistic answer is that this is a part of life. Spiritually is where the answers becomes complex.
The question I have for you is how is your father handling this. Is he wanting to investigate other options or is he wanting to move forward in the course he is taking? Is he wanting to go or is he wanting to stay?
Having not seen the movie I do not know what you are driving at. But instead of achieving a milestone that would make him proud why not focus on him and celebrating the wonderful life he led which included his magnificent children. Pictures, stories, and family together. If there is no cure for him then change the focus and let the medical people do what they need to do and you focus on his happiness and family.
Shaun
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Mike,
When you were over here did you attend any Church in that time? My lady is a Christian and prays every night.
I go to a church in Zhongshan it holds about 700 people and it is packed for every one of it three services on a Sunday.
They sing the same songs as we do in the west. However the music is the same but I do not think the words are a direct translation.
They problem is that I want to sing out but -- can you imagine how off putting that would be for all the Chinese who sing there heart out in there own language. So I just whisper the words to myself.
It seems to be a mixture of anglican and pentecostal - not worked it out yet. The service is in Mandarin and they do have a translator alongside but that is for Cantonese - or its the other way round.
I was quite flattered on my first visit that my lady thought so much of me that she gave an offering of one months salary for the blessing she received in meeting me.
Willy
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everything was in Mandarin, and I could not understand it.
Jessica turned the bible to the passage they discussed during the sermon
it was Psalm 23
I enjoyed the service, but I wish I could understand it ....
Mike
I was able to follow the sermon as the order of service was printed out - Chinese of course - but how many books have a Chapter 119? It had to be Psalms.
Willy
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The Christmas season is upon us. I was wondering what some of your opinions were as to Christmas the real reason vs. the Commercialism reason.
For my family it has been a difficult balance. We never wanted to deny the children the commercial side because it was so popular and so many people participated in it. But we always tempered it with the real reason, that being the birth of Jesus.
We took time to do local charity work and we still do. This year since donations are tight most ministries are not doing very much and we are having a hard time finding one to help. We will however celebrate Christmas as a family; that is including the ex. (for the adult-children benefit) Someone in the family will read the Christmas story from the Bible and then we will exchange presents.
We do not spend a lot of money on Christmas. It has always been modest when it comes to presents. All 5 of us would rather give to Charity.
Merry Christmas to all.
Shaun
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Christmas is a time when we remember a Great Prophet came about. Now it seems that the word Prophet has changed to profit.
Even here in China the shops and stores all have their christmas docorations up and I must admit that I am a bit pissed of listening to 'Rudolph the red nose reindeer' or the alternative choice of 'Santa Claus is coming to town' in just about every shopping centre and store I go to. Believe me these appear to be the only Christmas songs played here.
Father Christmas hats cost just 1 yuan (about 10 pence or 16 cents). and are very popular amongst the store staff,
To be honest I am slightly amazed at the lengths people do go to here, not to celebrate Christmas the way we do in he West but to get involved in this way and the shops have large sectionsd for decorations for the home. They do not give presents or gifts or celebrate Christmas day itself except for the growing, but still small, numbers of Christians in China.
One thing I have noticed there are a far greater percentage of Chinese men to women attending the churches than in the west - not quite 50 - 50 but very close.
Willy
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Hi guys,
I was going through the back pages here and came across this thread. Wish I'd have been here when this started. I made my way through about half of it, and then decided to just post a little bit of my own thoughts and background-since this topic is, believe it or not, one of the central topics of my life.
I didn't grow up in church, but was aware of the religion called 'christianity'. It was alla roud me, and in my family. I have spent a lot of time reading the bible in my life. I've read it through some many times I can't count them. Parts of it literally thousands of times, if not more. I also listened to all the preachers and teachers try to explain it, until finally after many years I put it down and threw all my bibles away, because it did not makes sense as they insisted on interpreting. Long story short, sevral years later god brought me back to it, with new eyes, and I began to see what I had been blind to before.
The scripture is a spiritual book. It is full of allegories and symbolism, and if you are approaching it as simply history-and judging it as such-then you will find plenty to contradict. If you are going to understand scripture at any real depth, you need to have a handle on the symbolsim and allegories, because all of scripture is, from beginning to end, one great allegory/parable based on real people and real events that have been overlayed by the author-God-with the unseen spiritual reality recorded in ways that look out of place if you are taking it all literally. For example, the apostle Paul briefly sketches an allegory from Abraham to Israel at Mount Sinai that contradicts what you would expect the conclusions to be from the literal reading of that broad passage of scripture.
Secondly, if you are reading english translations, you are at the mercy of the translators-and their doctrinal biases. The truth is 'in the beginning' the language is that of a recreation of something that existed previously. Adam is not a literal first man; but you will only understand this through the symbols used to describe his creation. 'Dust' is a symbol refering to a vast number of peoples. Eve is not made from his literal rib either. That word translated as 'rib' there also refers to a clan related to a larger family.
One of my main passions is writing about these things, and others, related to the scripture. I own several yahoo discussion groups where these things are discussed and debated. Since I came back to it, I have spent countless hours being led to understanding-because I submitted to God's way of doing it. And that only because He granted me to see through His eyes, and not my own human eyes.
Just thought I'd add my bit, as I said. I know that after 35 pages you guys probably burned out on the discussion. I've been at it hot and heavy for the last 8 years, discussing and debating what God has allowed me to see so that I could share it.
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True Mike on the tragedies and sad events. One happened on February 13th to the wife of a very good friend of mine. He is a pastor and his wife suddenly passed at the age of 45. She got sick, it turned into pneumonia, and then she suffered cardiac three times and they could not bring her back the last time. She was a friend too.
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Thought I would liven this thread up with a couple of photo's.
Willy
Thought I would liven this thread up with a couple of photo's.
Willy
But how does one add photos without replying to ones own message? The first is to show that churches are permitted in China and the second shows a services can be a bit different.
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Ah Ha. Willy the 2nd photo is not that different. Peggy would fit right in there. She loves to dance.
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Willy, where are you in these pictures ????? :huh:
:icon_cheesygrin:
I am the one with my back to the congregation. Must say that borrowed size 12 outfit and the wigs is OK. I even fancy myself.
Better not let Brett see these.
Willy
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i couldnt resist,
the second picture was of one week when they realized Angel showed up
and left Willy at home and didnt bring him to church.
but all kidding aside not what people think
there are churches in China of denominations
and they are full of people each week
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Personally, my problem with religion...or Christianity, are those that go to church on Sunday, and try to look all holy...but won't give you the time of day any other day of the week. I guess hypocrisy drives me nuts.
Good point! My problem with born-again Christians, is their belief I'm going to hell if I don't become "born-again"...if you want to practice this it's your choice and I'm good with this, butt don't tell me I'm going to hell if I don't view this the same way!
I like here in China!!! Don't hear this crap at all!!!
For those of you that are Christian, all to ya and I hope you have a great resurrection celebration day!
I know this quote is almost a year old butt somebody brought this thread up so I replied! I feel many believe they can screw people six days a week and go to church on Sundays and be forgiven...if you screw people I hope your God will deal with you correctly! :icon_cheesygrin:
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wow. That was beautiful Mike. Thanks.
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yes that was interesting video and i agree we can all study and worship in many different ways.
which is the way it should be.
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Whilst not a regular church goer I think, if you deep down do believe in God, and try to live a good life in thoughts and deeds then you won't be judged poorly at the time of reckoning.
That's my take on it, live and let live and if people find comfort and happiness though study etc then good for them.
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That is also my View on Religion . I'm also a Roman Catholic and live Life this way . If your good to People all your LIfe and live by the Commendments , believe in God .. then why would bad come to you ? I believe some People take Religion too far ( as the Middle east has shown ) .
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i second that also. the ones i dont like are the ones always preaching and trying to convert people
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The Modified 10 Commandments
1. The earth is our Mother, care for her.
2. honor all your relations.
3. Open your heart and soul to the Great Spirit.
4. All life is sacred; treat all beings with respect.
5. Take from the earth what is needed and nothing more.
6. Do what needs to be done for the good of all.
7. Give constant thanks to the Great Spirit for each day.
8. Speak the truth; but only of the good in others.
9. Follow the rhythms of nature.
10. Enjoy life's journey, but leave no tracks.
Live A Life That Matters
Ready or not, someday it will all come to an end.
There will be no more sunrises, no minutes, hours or days.
All the things you collected, whether treasured or forgotten, will pass to someone else.
Your wealth, fame and temporal power will shrivel to irrelevance.
It will not matter what you owned or what you were owed.
Your grudges, resentments, frustrations, and jealousies will finally disappear.
So, too, your hopes, ambitions, plans, and to-do lists will expire.
The wins and losses that once seemed so important will fade away.
It won't matter where you came from, or on what side of the tracks you lived, at the end.
It won't matter whether you were beautiful or brilliant.
Even your gender and skin color will be irrelevant.
So what will matter? How will the value of your days be measured?
What will matter is not what you bought, but what you built; not what you got, but what you gave.
What will matter is not your success, but your significance.
What will matter is not what you learned, but what you taught.
What will matter is every act of integrity, compassion, courage or sacrifice that enriched, empowered or encouraged others to emulate your example.
What will matter is not your competence, but your character.
What will matter is not how many people you knew, but how many will feel a lasting loss when you're gone.
What will matter is not your memories, but the memories that live in those who loved you.
What will matter is how long you will be remembered, by whom and for what.
Living a life that matters doesn't happen by accident. It's not a matter of circumstance but of choice.
Choose to live a life that matters.
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Vince,
That is a nice post. I try to live by the second half of your post.
Dave C
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Shaun I think you are wrong or misinformed? Only going by what I have heard but the Koran does not have anything in it saying kill others that are of different religion. Jews, Muslims and christians lived in Jerusalem with peace for a long time (hundred (s) of years). It is just the newer Muslims that interpreted it differently and have started there own crusade.
17 year old girl from OHIO whose father is threatening to KILL HER for converting to Christianity. Her life is in absolute jeopardy! She tells what Islam really does to people like her and that the Koran commands her family to kill... her (honor killing)...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0P5IaIE_LI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0P5IaIE_LI)
:-/
follow up on this ..... yes, from over a year ago ...
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/09/07/ohio.muslim.convert/index.html?hpt=Sbin (http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/09/07/ohio.muslim.convert/index.html?hpt=Sbin)
:-\
Vince is correct. Nowhere in the Koran does it advocate killing a non believer. These are views put forward by some Islamic Preachers and whose words are their own interpretation of maybe a line or two in the Koran.
Has anyone who has commented ever read the Koran? If not then you are adding your own uninformed views to those that may have been made for other reasons.
In my trips around the World visiting Christian Establishments I have come across 'Christian Preachers' who have created the same sort of propoganda against non christians. In some countries it has resulted in many killing. No where does it say in the Bible what they are proposing but they have found that it is more beneficial to their standing to act like some of the Elmer Gantry style evagelising Preachers that seem to thrive in the USA.
I say whatever your religion do not be dogmatic and accept every word. Question it and then make your own informed opinion. My idea of Heaven is probably different from many others. I have preached in many places following the aftermath of the London Bombings but I still wanted people to question what I was saying and not accept it blindly.
Yes Willy is a Christian but not of the 'hell fire and damnation' variety.
Willy
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Well said Willy,
In my opinion fundamentalists of any religion be they Muslim,Christian or what ever are bad news.They only spread hate and intolerance surely not the intention of religion.
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A Perfect Example of what we have been discussing.
Note that some Muslims are calling on others to burn the US flag in retribution and not a copy of the Bible
Willy
Former Prime Minister Tony Blair has issued a plea to an American clergyman not to go ahead with his plan to burn copies of the Koran on September 11. Blair wants Koran burning cancelled Mr Blair added his voice to those of the White House, the Vatican, the commander of international forces in Afghanistan General David Petraeus and film star Angelina Jolie, who all urged pastor Terry Jones to call off his protest.
But the pastor, who leads a tiny Florida church, insisted he would stage "International Burn-a-Koran Day" on Saturday, despite receiving more than 100 death threats.
Sky News reported that Anjem Choudary, former leader of the banned Islamist organisation Islam4UK, is calling on radical Muslim groups around the world to burn American flags outside US embassies in retaliation.
The pastor's supporters have been mailing copies of the Islamic holy book - which Muslims believe should be treated with the utmost respect - to put on the bonfire at his Dove World Outreach Centre in Gainesville to mark the ninth anniversary of the 9/11 attacks.
Explaining his plan, Mr Jones said: "Instead of us backing down, maybe it's time to stand up. Maybe it's time to send a message to radical Islam that we will not tolerate their behaviour."
In a statement, Mr Blair - who founded a Faith Foundation after leaving office to promote understanding between the world's religions - said: "I deplore the act of burning the Koran. It is disrespectful, wrong and will be widely condemned by people of all faiths and none. In no way does this represent the view of any sensible person in the West or any other part of the world."
The former PM added: "Those who wish to cause religious conflict are small in number but often manage to dominate the headlines.
"You do not have to be a Muslim to share a sense of deep concern at such a disrespectful way to treat the Holy Book of Islam.
"Rather than burn the Koran, I would encourage people to read it."
Reprinted from Sky Report
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Religion.... in my eyes...Each to their own !!! :)
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this is and will just breed hate and miscontent amongst the people of each different
religion. no one will benefit from this action. another thing people should not do if your
religous dont preach to others about your religion there is nothing i dislike more than to
be talking with someone and they start in on have you spoken to god lately or whatever
other approach they might take. its great your religous dont try and convert me
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this is and will just breed hate and miscontent amongst the people of each different
religion. no one will benefit from this action. another thing people should not do if your
religous dont preach to others about your religion there is nothing i dislike more than to
be talking with someone and they start in on have you spoken to god lately or whatever
other approach they might take. its great your religous dont try and convert me
Ted...see above... ;D ;D
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I believe in god. I am a Christian and fall into the Lutheran sect of being a Christian.
This means that we are a bit more "free minded" about everything than the other Christian religions. And this religion does not force any customs on anyone. Only thing they collect from people are taxes, and that only if the person agrees to it as well. It is something like 1% taxes anyway. So I never refused from it.
When I was younger I was on many confirmation camps as a helper/teacher. But we mostly played lots of games there and competitions. So it was a lot like you could imagine summer camps to be. Only difference is that we usually had one lesson each day about something in the bible.
Sometimes it could be an act we had prepared, sometimes a track where you had to answer questions, do missions etc funny things.
Because the youth here now a days don't care really for the religion. They need to take this attitude as well. And because most of the parents still send their children to the confirmation camps.
We need to make those work. Even if the children are all tough and at teenage rebellion. After a few days they realize they don't need to act with us. And things go nicely for rest of the camp duration.
Anyone here ever heard of Taizé? If not look it up. I have visited that place 3 times as well. It is such a wonderful place. Where one can be at peace. And it is probably the only place in the world where I have managed to have time for only myself. And concentrating only on myself.
There are many good places everywhere, where you can be at peace. But I never found as good place as this elsewhere.
There are groups for different ages and different themes. And the people in the groups are all over the world. So it was quite an experience to hear about the other culture and other sects of Christians.
Some seemed like fanatics to me, but I still understood and respected them.
And some seemed like they were there for fun and vacation. But a group needs those too. So it doesn't get too serious.
I don't go to church often, or much. But thats because of the religion being quite loose on its people. Not telling them to go, instead inviting them to come.
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Since the other trend was closed, this trend was buried and I had a point I wanted to make? I am writing here.
The other trend - http://www.chinaromance.net/index.php?topic=2958.msg50537#new (http://www.chinaromance.net/index.php?topic=2958.msg50537#new)
The point I wanted to make was I was not knocking a religion, as much as I was trying to show how a translation changes a quotation.
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Face it Vince. They just do not want to deal with the subject of Religion or Politics. I didn't feel like there was a debate but yet it continually came up.
Sorry Martin but everytime something is mentioned you jump or there is a threat by a mod to close the thread. Bottom line is you don't want anything said about it... that differs with your thoughts. I am not taking it personal just recognizing the facts.
I had decided to walk away from the discussion prior to you shutting the thread down because you took it as me trying to debate you. There wasn't a debate going on at all. So you don't have to worry. You can discuss all you want. I'll keep quiet.
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Shaun , I feel Martin did the right thing .. closing the Thread . Listen , I loved you Guys discussing the Bible and all .. but it really belongs here . This is wide open for ANY religious views to be posted , as long as it does not get personal too much . So please don't feel hampered to continue where you Guys left off . It is very interesting to hear/learn what you have digged up .
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I agree that it should be in the Religion thread. No problem with that issue.
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Well in one way some are afraid it will become a debate that will get out of hand, hurt feelings and a drop in membership because of it. I did say early on to move it here anyway. I also didn't see a debate going on. At least I didn't take it that way.
I know for sure I was not trying to debate anyone or start a fight over religion. Most people need a religion, for there own reason and I am not trying to change it or them. I'm not out to insult anyone either. I simply state how I see it.
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Sorry Martin but everytime something is mentioned you jump or there is a threat by a mod to close the thread. Bottom line is you don't want anything said about it... that differs with your thoughts. I am not taking it personal just recognizing the facts.
Shaun, I am sorry, but I do not jump...if you recall, I was the one that split the thread, and I was the one that posted some of my thoughts. However, what you do not realize, is that there are unintended consequences that happen when people read these words. And, just such an unintended consequence has happened, and I was made aware of it. So I shut it down, based on that.
If you want to get into a political or religious debate, then I am your man. Nothing I love more than a good debate or discussion. And as far as me not wanting to read something that differs from my thoughts....I am a Christian. Nobody here knows what my beliefs and thoughts are, because I keep them to myself. But when I run this forum, I have to separate my personal beliefs from that of this forum. This forum has other purposes, and I try to keep it on an even keel.
So please, don't criticize me for this, because you really don't have all the facts to make an honest judgment.
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Martin, Sorry. I was the one jumping in the earlier post. Kind of venting if you will. It has been a difficult week on all fronts but the weekend is here and I am already chilling. A good night sleep and I'll be a new man.
I do realize you were the one who split the thread. All that being said I do think you guys jump a little too quick to close but maybe you do it intentionally. I generally don't say anything because I am not the one in charge. So before I start to sound like a raving lunatic I apologize and back down.
Ya Ya I know I already sound like one. :-X
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Harold Camping’s Math
Harold Camping, a radio preacher who has predicted the end of the world, contends that 2 Peter provides keys to understanding end times.
Part of 2 Peter 3:8 says, “With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.”
With this understanding, Camping says that when God told Noah in the book of Genesis that he had seven days to escape destruction before a worldwide flood, God was also telling the world that there would be exactly 7,000 years until Judgment Day.
Seven thousand years after the flood, which Camping dates to the year 4990 BC, is the year 2011. (Year 4990 BC + 2011 AD - 1 year for the year zero = 7,000 years) May 21 was chosen because it is the 17th day of the second month in the Hebrew calendar, which mirrors the Biblical account in Genesis 7:10-11, which says a flood came in the “six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month.”
Camping has said that the dates of the crucifixion and the statehood of Israel confirm his calculations.
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the bible also say that God (btw it's his title not his name and the jews had their reasons for not writing the name. Nothing to do with christians) said he would never again harm the earth in that capacity? Are they making a hypocrite of him?
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Vince. You are opening a very big can of worms with that question. Maybe when I have the time I can answer you.
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It's true. I'm here in China and the world has ended. it is 4:00pm may 21.
Just kidding. Let me be the first to prove this whacko wrong.
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Well... I don't look at it as opening a can of worms since it's all over the news and not a word spoken of it here? Had to shakeup this place it's been to quiet lately. ;)
Thanks Mike, couldn't remember the quote of the flood. To lazy to look it up and to many variations only agitates me.
Neil you may be already gone? Writing this at 7:50 pm China time. Besides, if I was in China with my lady i'd already be in heaven. ;D
Besides if he used the bible written in Isreal it would be on Israeli time zone? Shouldn't it?
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Harold Camping and his devoted followers claim a massive earthquake will mark the second coming of Jesus, or so-called Judgment Day on Saturday, May 21, ushering in a five month period of catastrophes before the world comes to a complete end in October.
At the center of it all, Camping's organization, Family Radio, is perfectly happy to take your money -- and in fact, received $80 million in contributions between 2005 and 2009.
So he doesn't say the world ends today but the start of the end begins today. Also at receiving $80 million he shows his faith buy evidence of his profit, prophesying is good for business. I can attest to this becausing as an Atheist - I show no prophet being a poor pauper ::) zero profit.
Most religions have a doom and gloom scenario anyways, and the stairway to heaven conviently places toll booths that need collections from fellow followers, before permission is given to use the yellow brick road. At least my wife has a pair of red ruby slippers which can be found at .... "there is no place like home"
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It just boggles my mind that there are some that would believe him so deeply that they sold off everything they had and gave him the money?
Reminds me of the Led Zeppelin song Stairway to Heaven.
Just another fruitcake so deeply rooted in his own little world that he doesn't see the obvious.
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well Vince what you wrote could give a preacher a whole sermon.
But them I have heard Nigerian Preachers talk for two and half hours on just two or three words from the Bible. But as a Christian it does bother me that the Christian organisations in the world do become very wealthy beyong their needs.
We also have American preachers who admit that the income of their organisation is over 500 million dollars plus a year. But then again many of them do not declared their income as it is not required by US law for religious organisations to do so.
Willy.
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Well Willy that's the root of evil that makes me strikeout at most of these so called religions. Preaching the bible in the name of God but only picking blinded peoples pockets. Say that fast five times? :P
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Just another fruitcake so deeply rooted in his own little world that he doesn't see the obvious.
Haha Vince....I think he DOES see the obvious..."a fool and his money are soon parted"...straight into HIS pocket ;D ;D ;D
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OAKLAND, Calif. – They spent months warning the world of the apocalypse, some giving away earthly belongings or draining their savings accounts. And so they waited, vigilantly, on Saturday for the appointed hour to arrive.
When 6 p.m. came and went at various spots around the globe, and no extraordinary cataclysm occurred, Keith Bauer — who hopped in his minivan in Maryland and drove his family 3,000 miles to California for the Rapture — took it in stride.
"I had some skepticism but I was trying to push the skepticism away because I believe in God," he said in the bright morning sun outside the gated Oakland headquarters of Family Radio International, whose founder, Harold Camping, has been broadcasting the apocalyptic prediction for years. "I was hoping for it because I think heaven would be a lot better than this earth," But he added, "It's God who leads you, not Harold Camping."
Bauer, a tractor-trailer driver, began the voyage west last week, figuring that if he "worked last week, I wouldn't have gotten paid anyway, if the Rapture did happen." After seeing the nonprofit ministry's base of operations, Bauer planned to take a day trip to the Pacific Ocean, and then start the cross-country drive back home Sunday with his wife, young son and another family relative.
The May 21 doomsday message was sent far and wide via broadcasts and web sites by Camping, an 89-year-old retired civil engineer who has built a multi-million-dollar Christian media empire that publicizes his apocalyptic prediction. According to Camping, the destruction was likely to have begun its worldwide march as it became 6 p.m. in the various time zones, although believers said Saturday the exact timing was never written in stone.
Many followers said though the sun rose Saturday without the foretold earthquakes, plagues, and other calamities, the delay was a further test from God to persevere in their faith.
"It's still May 21 and God's going to bring it," said Family Radio's special projects coordinator Michael Garcia, who spent Saturday morning praying and drinking two last cups of coffee with his wife at home in Alameda. "When you say something and it doesn't happen, your pride is what's hurt. But who needs pride? God said he resists the proud and gives grace to the humble."
btw it's 6:05 PM eastern US coast. Hope my neighbors raptured? Was getting rid of them anyway?
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Really I just wanted to wait until after 6:00. It is not 6:20 and I am still here. Rats now I have to answer the question. I'll keep it simple and not even go into all of the implications and theoretical mumbo jumbo even though it fascinates me.
Mike has it. Genesis 8:21 says, "I will never do it again, I will never again curse the earth, destroying all living things, even though man's bent is always toward evil..."
Churches are another story. I really don't have much used for them and this one is a prime reason. I've been apart of that world and saw the ugliness of it all. Now I would prefer a smaller one that is actually doing what Christians are really supposed to be doing. Yes people get caught up in all of the success of big churches and the great programs that they do.
Now I know this next statement is going to make a few religious people angry but if you are in a church or find a church who isn't heavily involved with doing what Jesus said in Matthew 25:35-36 then you are in a church that isn't about God at all. Beyond salvation and sanctification this is at the heart of the kingdom of God. Read it, actually read Matthew 25:34-40.
OK now I will get off of my soap box and walk away. ;)
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clap clap clap clap bravo! bravo!
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Your too much Vince. ;D
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Thanks Mike.
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What a crock of crap that is. OK Did you notice the difference? One is spiritual within themselves, natural in nature in god's country. Then you have the church with a band, large screen TV's, and the rest that comes with it… Stand, Kneel, now sing, put money in the plate, now get out.
Then the "Underground" What crap this is pure propaganda. The corrupt police? First off how do you know that black Honda wasn't part of their crew? So they have something to film. Then standing on the street shooting film… like wouldn't someone look over? and they say it's the secret police? B.S. How many times have we read here that chinese people see a westerner and stop, look and stare. And the two guys spying on them? They didn't have the black Honda did they?
And where's the corruption? It's only guy stating the police are. He's the one doing things illegal. Another point, the spy in the hotel was on the phone calling the police… why would he if he was the police?
I wouldn't believe one frame of this video.
Forgot to add this in. It seemed easier to film there then here in the states. He said they needed 3 days advance notice. Here you not only need to give notice of when you have to get a permit also. I think I remember something of that gathering that all the police were at. Wasn't it something like their gathering place was bulldozed there and they decided to meet there anyway? Something like that?
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The Atheists Prayer:
Lord protect me from your followers
:-)
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I wouldn't believe one frame of this video.
The last part of the video states "The Government here is very concerned with groups that have the ability to organize beyond its reach"
I had heard about crack downs in China while Egypt was in the midst of protest and that China was afraid of overflow from there. This video seems timed with that event.
China's unwanted spiritual revolution
So I think the title for the video is misleading - its not that China does not want spiritual revolution, but that they fear to lose control. All Governments use oppression as a tactic to try to maintain control.
Now I have been in the army and can understand how soldiers sometimes mistrust reporters and Vince I can see your mistrust of the media and of organized religion by your verbal diatribe. Of course the reporter's job is to raise a stink and sell papers, so he will look for a story and embellish. There is a story here but also many brands in the fire.
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The Atheists Prayer:
Lord protect me from your followers
:-)
And all this time I thought it was Oh Lord save me from thou Prophet so I may keep my profit. ::)
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Rhonald and everyone else. Before I ventured onto Chnlove and our forums I had pictured China as I have heard and seen in the media and movies. Everyone wearing grey clothes or uniforms, riding bikes, and the military on every corner ready to shoot down anyone out of line. That's the picture they fed us for many years. And still do. They are still portrayed as the evil empire.
Now that I have learned the truth and when a country like the US beat their chest of how better they are? First I get pissed off for the lies and then I laugh at their stupidity. When you realize a country like the US has more laws and represses more then China does? You wonder?
Oh yeah and if you think anyone can just open a church here in the states? Guess again. You have to get a license and qualify (be approved) here as well.
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Vince what you said is mostly true. There isn't an approval process. The only things you are looking for to start a church is permit to assemble and tax exempt status. As a part of the tax exempt status you need a set of bylaws and you have to operate your church by. You'd better operate by them too. Also you have to be careful what you say and hand out in regard to politics. If a church breaks their bylaws or the IRS's political laws then the church looses it tax exempt status.
Kind of sounds like China doesn't it. :o
The largest growing church movement in America right now is home church. I wonder why?
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The largest growing church movement in America right now is home church. I wonder why?
I know I had one (spanish) across the street from me at the old address. BUT, I could have had them in trouble if I wanted. Local laws say you cannot assemble in a home (mostly for fire laws). Also most places you can not run a business out of your home. There are parking issues, and whatever else they can find in the log books. Approval comes from the local sector. It all comes down to the same thing. The government wants their cut. Just like China.
ah, you know what? it's easier just to say "Don't believe everything you read and see on the internet"
BTW to all, the rapture has been moved to October 21.
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Just as an update....that whatever Camping guy (see how much I normally pay attention to these types of people) said he made a mistake (twice? How can you trust him with something so important)... that the day of reckoning is now Oct. 21st. He made a second calculatory mistake...
If he goofs this next one up....well, I'd consider arresting him for public mischief....
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What is funny to me is he was asked "What if your wrong" in which he replied "Impossible" and he was wrong. This tells me he has a superior complex in which he believes he is better then mankind as if he is God. He's just off his rocker.
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Why these fools continue to predict when the end will come astounds me. Matthew 24:35-36 say no one will know, only God will. While he is being a media whore trying to increase the size of this church and income there is a real world out the needing help. He needs to get off of the stage and go back to helping people. Of course the news media doesn't help any. They keep sticking a camera in his face ti generate more profits for their industry.
Actually October 21st is the third time. I stopped listening the first time he preached heresy. Basically by making the prediction he is saying he is God because the bible says only God will know. Dangerous territory for a believer to be in.
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OH No.....Oct. 21st...bloody hell. :(......3 days after I'm 21 again.... :o :o ???
3rd time lucky????
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Rob, I wouldn't lose sleep over it. I wouldn't even include it on my lotto numbers except if you could used all of them. You know kind of reverse luck. :o An inverted rabbits foot if you will.
The only thing this guy has going for him is his strike out record and the 80 million his church is worth. If I were him I'd keep my mouth shut so that it doesn't become worth 40 million over night. As goofy as some of these heretics can be there could be a church split over this. Gotta say it again. Matthew 24:36. ;D
And just in case one might wonder. I am still a deeply committed Christian. Just don't have much sympathy for bone headed heretics.
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Far as I'm concerned, I hope this "rapture" thing happens as predicted.....the Planet will loose over 3 billion people, These loonies will be leaving it all behind to go to some other Paradise and make trouble there...not here !!!!.
This will be good news for those of us who dont go...end of pollution, population explosion, food crisis, global warming, traffic conjestion, carbon footprint...the lot !!!
Could be a much better place to live in........
David
ps...and little choir boys will be safe at last >:( >:(
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Then again David with all of us troublemakers gone who will take over? My momma always told me you better be careful what you ask for.
Hope you realize this is all in fun. ;D
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Shaun
Whoever takes over when all of you are out there somewhere else....they cant do much worse that the current lot !!! Likely the Chinese will be in charge ???...I will be OK...I have a Chinese wife ;D ;D...I'll be one of the family. And if you stayed behind (sorry but I cant see that....you would need to turn into a bas***d like me).... you would be OK too ;D ;D
Yep...it's all a lot of fun...except for the Loonies who believe every word...regardless of history and logic and commonsense
Cheers...David
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Reminds me of something Homer Simpson said... Don't worry, by the time he's old enough we will be ruling the world. ah, we're China right?
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Peace on Earth, goodwill to ALL men...
What is the world coming to whenb this happens??? ???
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rival-clerics-brawl-jesus-birthplace-130200368.html (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rival-clerics-brawl-jesus-birthplace-130200368.html)
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Rob,
This is a long story. I'll try to do a short version of it.
At every, considered to be, sacred Christian site in Israel there are generally 2 churches. The Roman Catholic and the Greek Orthodox church. In this spot there are 3 with the Armenian Apostolic Christians. All share the same building.
News media like to make it a religious war but it is more of a ethnic or people group war. You will notice that they do not say "Roman" or "Greek." Why? Because that gives away what it is about. Roman Catholics are a mixture group of people but I understand that it is mostly Palestinian. The Greek Orthodox are of course Greeks.
They fight for control of the site all of the time. Has been that way since the beginning. I've seen them spit at each other. I've seen a funeral procession have to wait outside for over an hour because there was, from what I understand, an impromptu service with maybe 10 people in attendance. They continually do things to harass each other.
But don't ever think it is an issue of religion. They beliefs are almost exactly the same. They just don't follow them very well.
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Rob,
But don't ever think it is an issue of religion.
We are political creatures, and Rob, as Shaun is quoted, sometimes politics trumps religion.
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I found this link and thought some might enjoy reading it.
http://www.bibleprobe.com/chinese.htm (http://www.bibleprobe.com/chinese.htm)
This is a review on the article that makes some good points.
http://www.amazon.com/Discovery-Genesis-Truths-Chinese-Language/product-reviews/0570037921/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1 (http://www.amazon.com/Discovery-Genesis-Truths-Chinese-Language/product-reviews/0570037921/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1)
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It's a crock
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Peace on Earth, goodwill to ALL men...
What is the world coming to whenb this happens??? ???
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rival-clerics-brawl-jesus-birthplace-130200368.html (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rival-clerics-brawl-jesus-birthplace-130200368.html)
The problems in Israel are mainly caused by the Orthodox Jews who want to turn Isreal into a place were the orthodox Jewish laws to take precedence. It is much the same as certain Muslim sects want to have full control of a country and impose Sharia law.
Much the same as the fundenThe orthodox Jews want women to be second class citizens and they cause a great deal of trouble in Israel by abusing and physically attacking women that are not fully submissive to their rules.
You get grown men in all the normal orthodox attire spitting on 8 year old girls who they consider are not dressed to their rigid rules.
There are just too many fundemental groups of all religious persuasions that cause many of the problems in this world.
It seems like the louder you shout the more attention you get when really the quieter ones need the most help.
Willy
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Well ;D makes sense doesn't it
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Mike, Amen!
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God Bless Martin for starting this thread. I believe someone's Faith will begin, be stirred, or be strengthened by this Topic.
Remember, folks we are here for a very short time. No one knows for certain their checkout date.
I found out in a very hard way how undescribably very horrifying, how fearful to die without Christ! There are no human words to describe it. Most people think you go to Hell forever when you die without Christ. Not so. I sincerely wish Christians would stop telling people so.
You go to an infinitely worse place. As bad as hell is, it is nothing compared to the Lake of Fire. In fact, it is so huge even Hell itself will be cast in there (Revelation 20:14) This is what John calls the Wrath of God. And not only do you miss Heaven, but you spend eternity in such a God forsaken place with Satan your deadly enemy, all because you wanted to live the way you want, and wouldn't give God the miserable and uncertain hundred years or so you MIGHT have in this life. The sad thing is, people are so blinded by Satan they never realise God can not only give them BETTER than their hearts desires now, but also give them Eternal life to boot.
Like I said, I've been both places, and a quadrillion dollars aren't enough for me to even spend a minute there again. You see, Christians aren't trying to bash people on the head to make them repent, but because we have seen the horror coming upon unbelieving souls, there is almost nothing we wouldn't do to warn them.
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God Bless Martin for starting this thread. I believe someone's Faith will begin, be stirred, or be strengthened by this Topic.
Remember, folks we are here for a very short time. No one knows for certain their checkout date.
I found out in a very hard way how undescribably very horrifying, how fearful to die without Christ! There are no human words to describe it. Most people think you go to Hell forever when you die without Christ. Not so. I sincerely wish Christians would stop telling people so.
You go to an infinitely worse place. As bad as hell is, it is nothing compared to the Lake of Fire. In fact, it is so huge even Hell itself will be cast in there (Revelation 20:14) This is what John calls the Wrath of God. And not only do you miss Heaven, but you spend eternity in such a God forsaken place with Satan your deadly enemy, all because you wanted to live the way you want, and wouldn't give God the miserable and uncertain hundred years or so you MIGHT have in this life. The sad thing is, people are so blinded by Satan they never realise God can not only give them BETTER than their hearts desires now, but also give them Eternal life to boot.
Like I said, I've been both places, and a quadrillion dollars aren't enough for me to even spend a minute there again. You see, Christians aren't trying to bash people on the head to make them repent, but because we have seen the horror coming upon unbelieving souls, there is almost nothing we wouldn't do to warn them.
Prove it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!!!!
More then Prove it, Who told you this? Quote: "As bad as hell is, it is nothing compared to the Lake of Fire" ??? So tell me WHO WAS THERE AND REPORTED THIS? and the same question for "Eternal life to boot?
And I love this one... "I've been both places" Really? you have? you should have warned me to wear my hip boots this is some deep shit.
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Vince the place he talks about I think, is what we Catholics call 'Purgatory' and of course this place cannot be proved.
I often think this is the place I will end up in, not 'good' enough to go to heaven and not 'bad' enough for hell. I will be there with all the 'lost' souls.
He could be talking metaphorically ;D ;D ;D So let us not condem him for his 'beliefs.
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None of what I am about to write should be considered as an attack on anyone's belief. A healthy debate is a good thing.
Interesting hypotheses funky but I don't agree.
How is it then a man can live completely away from and against God, dies and while waiting for the second death and end up going to heaven? There wouldn't be anyone going to the lake of fire because while in purgatory or paradise which ever term you wish to used you can supposedly see heaven and hell. When seeing both why would anyone continue the path that leads to total destruction? (See Luke 16:20-25 for a description of purgatory or paradise)
Secondly how do you navigate around Hebrews 9:27, "it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgement."
David I also want to ask you; Since you question the validity of funky's hypothesis, isn't the initial burden of proof on you rather than him? What is your proof that it isn't true?
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Honestly, heaven and hell are never in my thoughts. Good or bad, whatever happens to us after we die is none of our business. How we behave here and now is much more important.
I came across this story today. [size=78%]http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/homeless-girl-makes-science-competition-finals-27868635.html (http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/homeless-girl-makes-science-competition-finals-27868635.html)[/size]
Someone like that is what I pray for.
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Didn't Jesus say something along these lines - even if he is not christian
"Everyone is welcome in my fathers house?" or was it "You will sit at my right hand in paradise" ???
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What anyone believes is up to them and I don't really care either way. It's a debate to me. I guess I find in amusing in a way how stories got twisted, spun into something other then Logic and commonsense. Raised Catholic I always had questions mostly Why? and when getting an answer from the church associate it became a huh? (to refresh your memories)
To make this short lets explore the Bible where it all originates. The Old Testament is a book of stories told for thousands of years and written down so not to be forgotten. This was the start of One God.
The New Testament was written at least 50 years after Christ? 50 years? they had to be 100 years old and in those days? doubt it. The Catholic religion started by Romans to keep the rising of christians in order. Rules were made (sins) to keep them afraid to get out of line. Heaven and Hell were now created. Later when questioned they came up with Purgatory as an answer? These are the Facts, written Facts.
Spinoffs of the Catholic religion began later on by Kings that wanted religion their way. King James Bible written/rewritten in Shakespeare days (500+ yrs) made their own rules and interpretations.
So it all comes down to WHO you believe. So now there is Hate, fighting and killing all in the same name. So who is right or wrong?
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Vince I hate to say it but you are writing partial truths.
The New Testament was written by 8 people. Matthew, John Mark, Luke, John, James, Paul, Peter, and Jude. Matthew, John, Peter, James and Jude were written by people who lived with and during during the time of Jesus. Matthew, John, and Peter were disciples of his, James and Jude were 1/2 brothers to Jesus. Paul became an apostle after the death of Jesus. John Mark and Luke were close associate of Paul and also became Christians after the death of Jesus.
Every one of these guys were contemporaries of each other and were held accountable to each other for their writings. Also, there were many others who knew Jesus, his works and the writings of these men. They would have called for heresy if their writing was incorrect. While I agree that each book was written after the death of Jesus it wasn't 50 years after his death but 50 years after his birth so these men might have been about 50 years old and surely no more than 80 years old when they wrote their books. Jesus died in 33AD. It could have been 32AD when Jesus was crucified because there is a popular opinion that the time started at the conception of Jesus.
The Catholic church was a spin off of the Apostolic Church that met mostly in peoples homes. Catholicism was a move to take the people back to more of a Jewish type church that separated people from God and put a priest in between. It was also a move to bring tighter order among Christians. As it is today there were many who taught heresy.
The first book of the bible Genesis was transcribed by Moses who also wrote the next 4 books of the bible. Prior to Moses it was by word of mouth through the historians of their time. Of particular interest is that prior to the flood there were as many as 14 generations of people alive at the same time, all recorded, so that when the youngest historian was telling the history there could have been as many as 13 older historians listening to what was being said. Adam wasn't alive when Noah was born but his father Lamech was.
So back to Moses. Moses was 120 when he died and he never saw the promise land. (Israel) He spend the previous 40 years wondering in the wilderness and all 5 books were written in the wilderness so that makes him 80 at the earliest when he wrote them.
The putting together of the bible is another whole set of facts for another time if any are interested.
Dems de facts.
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I wonder how they calculated ages in those days. No calendars, no clocks. They seem to live for so long when we know that people had short lifes then!
Did they see a new moon arise at the end of what we call a lunar month and say 'ok thats another year gone.' and wait for the next one in a months time! And if it was a cloudy night they had to wait another month or so.
According to all that has been written in the old testament man can only have been on this earth for maybe 4000 years or so.
Unfortunately science is now casting great doubts over our christian beliefs. .
It is no that long ago that us earthlings always thought the earth was flat and we could fall of the edge. Of course science proved otherwise. Mankind thought that maybe there was people living on the moon, science and technology removed that.
We now have Sir David Attenborough going through the history of man from its beginnings as a flat slug like creature from the sea. Science is killing of long held beliefs.
Whatever belief you hold and whatever variety, there are people who take it over and mould it to their own personal advantages.
What I fear is the American politicians using Christianity as a spring board for their political campaigns. I put that into the same cagegory as the American evangelist who individually are now worth hundreds of millions each, simply by telling people what they want to hear. And one when asked why he had never publicised his accounts simply said "God told me not to" simple as that. No one could disprove differently and his money still rollls in.
Along my way I have seen things that I can only gasp at and say that was a miracle. At others I have seen charlatans at work for their own advantage.
In Africa I saw a pastor who made a 10 year old girl, who had been blind since birth, see again in front of thousands. His assistant put 4 handkerchiefs on the floor, each of different color. He removed very dark glasses the girl wore, rubbed the her eyes very hard, and when she opened them and had blinked many times and rubbed her own eyes. He asked her if she could see. 'Yes' she said. The audience gasped and shouted hallelujah He then told her to go and pick up one of the clothes from the floor just selecting one color. she went picked one up and said 'Green One".
I asked, if she had been blind since birth how did she know the color was green. He quick reply was 'God Told her' . No one in the vast crowd would go against that. Not even that the girl was the daughter of his assistant and the assistant was his own daughter! so he gave 'sight' to his own grand daughter and with 'such power' he had waited till she was ten years of age!
I could go on in this vein but everyone should believe in something even if that something is themself.
Willy
As for purgatory I have preach that there was no such place as purgatory, which was like a dressing room where people who had died in sin could prepare themselves for entry into heaven.
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Someone wrote here the other day that they liked to debate. Unfortunately, I don't. I can't tell or prove how I got to know of those places. Even if I did, most won't believe it, brothers. With every ounce of my being, though, I beg of you to try and read your Bibles for your selves.
You see, Christianity is a "spiritual" walk with God. Jesus said unless the Holy Ghost draws you to Himself, you cannot come to Him. He also added unless you received the news of His Kingdom as a child you can't enter therein. The world says "Seeing is Believing". Jesus says " Believe, and you will see"
The fault I see in Christendom today is they try to intellectualise Christianity, hence all these huge churches and seminaries, yet without the power of the Holy Ghost. I don't have enough spiritual or mental acumen to argue or draw anyone to Jesus; that's the Holy Spirit's job. I just tell them about the truth I see in God's Word. I don't judge them or criticize them. Why?
Because I myself sat thru Baptist College preaching every sunday for more or less five years, and though I made a verbal pronouncement for Christ, I never fully believed it as I should have until my fateful encounter with Jesus two years later, and I saw those places myself. It's been about 30 years now, and I still can't talk about it too much, too painful. Now, I know why Jesus suffered such terrible agony so none of us would go to those places.
Everyday, according to UN statistics, on average, 100 to 150,000 people die, yet only a handful are saved. What a tragedy! Every day I pray No One Goes to those places. I applaud the Catholics very much in praying that ALL SOULS be saved. Though not one myself, if any one saw what I saw that day, you wouldn't wish anything less, not even for the world's greatest sinner. In fact I prayed once to God not to send even Satan there, but He declined. But I know with God, nothing is impossible.
Thank God though; I can sense the Spirit is stirring up some souls here.
Try Bibleprope's NDEs and you will se a lot of people with similar stories, though only one other man I have ever heard talk about the lake of fire in my 30 years. He just saw it, but I WAS IN there.
By the way, Robert, you don't have to go to Pugatory. If you make your peace with God thru Jesus now, it won't be necessary.
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Yes Shaun you are correct in many points made and as I wrote try to make it short, skipped through some of it. But it was Constantine that allowed the christians to come out of the shadows (in Rome). I think you meant the same point I skipped over about the Catholic priest part and how the people had to pray to the priest and the priest prayed to god for them. This was done to make the church and priest very important and needed. But this is what they were told God said?
If the writing started when Christ was born? then they didn't go a good job or not at all till his last years? Like Willy wrote they didn't live that long back then AND I had the same question on how they counted time/years? in the desert? Sorry I don't buy it. The puzzle pieces don't fit and yhat's because they are the wrong pieces.
Oh and as for Noah, This was a story told for 1000 years before it was written. They changed the name to Noah. This was found in other writings. Christmas isn't Jesus' birthday. It varied in a few years and it wasn't december. I think it was 3 years before the year thought to be that there was Halley's Comet and some believe this was the bright star they saw. Much like sailors on a ship and others I think they told wild stories of their adventures. People still do it today.
Willy, I could tell from here that blind girl could see. Besides the color thing? (ha) If she was blind and could see they would have to gradually bring light to her eyes (could take days) so the eyes can adjust. If the eyes are exposed to bright sunlight from complete darkness? It can cause blindness…. so that's a catch 22
Funky, you say to read the bible but the point is which one? and why believe one over the other?
For the others worried of purgatory? Don't worry. For a mere $7000. usd (cash) I can guarantee your money back if you end up there.
Now if you excuse me some of the disciples are restless, they want to get the poker game started and Moses thinks my shutters are tablets? sick dude.
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Sorry guys I didn't go thoroughly thru the replies before posting.
First off, I must say Shaun you know your church history very well. All that you said is true. What I couldn't understand was your question. I don't know if you were asking if I believed people come back to life after dying, or what. Could you please reframe your question by making reference to what I said that you disagree with. Thanks.
All I'm asking is those who do not know to accept the Lord Jesus as their Saviour before it is too late. That's all. I don't claim to know everything, or have all the answers. I know the one who does; God.
Funny thing is nobody can scientifically prove even the existence of God. (I heard on the radio; I believe it was Coast to Coast; where a guy was saying he knew someone who could mathematically prove the existence of God. Good for him.)
David E and Vince G, therefore, I'm sorry to say the only proof I would have for you is if you believe in the Bible, then Psalm 19:1 states "the Heavens declare the glory of God, and firmament His handiwork', yet some people look up everyday at the heavens and boldly declare there is no God, and proudly call themselves atheists. While others give glory and thanks to Him everyday for His marvelous creations when they look at the same heavens. What gives?
The answer is the Spirit of God. He teaches those who hearts want to learn. That's why there are kids four year old that believe in God, and there are 80 or 90 year olds who don't. Science, education or experience has nothing to do with it.
For those who are trusting science to solve all your problems, look at 1 Tim 6: 20-21 where Paul tells Timothy "...avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science, FALSELY so called, which some professing, have erred concerning the faith". This means what we call science today, the Bible calls FALSE. It is at variance with the Word of God. You see Man can't put God under a microscope, or write theorems about His existence or His power. He is highly Exalted above all that. And that is what sets Science at odds with God. But if you think about it, for those of you who don't believe in God, let us suppose for a minute there really is a God, who is really whom He claims He is. Can you then see the folly of trying to prove His existence with our very unreliable and mistake-ridden So-called science. To give one small example, when Madame and Pierre Curie discovered Plutonium, scientist had to change all the Atomic Table, if you remember ( I can't remember if that's the name; it's late and my brain is shutting down) since it was a totally different element. So what if another element of equal or greater importance is discovered tomorrow? I am not saying Science is all bad, but I would rather go with the Word which has never made a mistake.
I know Willy the Londoner is also a Christian, so I would therefore encourage you to put your faith in God and not science, "falsely so called", since so-called empirical scientific evidence can easily be manipulated by any lesser demon.
Vince G, the Bible was not written 500 years ago. It was translated into English at that time. Check out the story of the Dead Sea Scrolls found in Israel in 1947 which successfully shut up a lot of people who were claiming the Bible was written 300 to 500 years ago. For those who have not heard the story, these were Bibilical scrolls encased in clay pots and found hidden in a cave in Israel by an Arab shepherd boy. They were carbon dated to have been written 2000 years ago, by a sect known as Essienes, (who were wiped out by Roman soldiers, according to Josephus, the Jewish historian) and when they compared them with the current King James Version, especially the Book of Isaiah, there was virtually no difference. Now do you think all the atheists when they saw the proof that the Bible was written long ago shouted " Hallelujah! This is the proof we have been waiting for. Now we believe"? Of course not. they have to go and search for another reason NOT to believe the Bible is the Word of God.
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David I also want to ask you; Since you question the validity of funky's hypothesis, isn't the initial burden of proof on you rather than him? What is your proof that it isn't true?
Shaun.
I am primarily a Scientist, I got my Doctorate by writing a Thesis that was subject to a Peer Review by a number of Learned professors who critically evaluated my work and judged whether or not, the actual, real, research I performed in completing my Thesis represented an indisputable proof of the subject I had chosen for my Dissertation. It was me (selling my ideas and research) that needed to totally convince them that I was correct in every way. THEY were under no obligation to prove anything to me...they were the "Buyers"....
Had I not been able to conclusively prove my arguement to this body of reviewers, far more learned than me, I would not have been granted a Doctorate. Therefore I submit to you that because Funky is attempting to change my views, the burden of proof is on him.
In this respect, Anybody who sets out to convince anybody else, for whatever reason that there is any ABSOLUTE proof of the existence of Heaven, Hell or all points in between will always fail the evidentiary evaluation...nobody has ever been there and come back with a verifiable proof....a proof that would satisfy any reasonable, thinking human being without Faith, that is....... (and I am not being offensive here...Faith is a different isue)
All those people who BELIEVE in such things do so as a basis of their FAITH...not on the basis of fact.....and that is up to them. I accept that is how and what they prefer to think, provided they dont expect everybody else to come along with their view by threatening eternal dammnation with no proof. But in my opinion ( ;D ) . They cannot possibly believe this on the basis of evidence...because all of the purported evidence is hearsay, legend, myth or wishful thinking. Therefore, if somebody wants to convert me...an unbeliever, into recanting my views, and attempts to do it by the threat of eternal dammnation...then it cant be done by just saying "have Faith that I speak the truth, even though I have no proof"...but it could be done by demonstrating to me that it all has a firm basis in observable, quantifiable fact.......thats just me !!!
Therefore I personally believe that the burden of proof is not on the buyer...but remains with the Seller. If there was incontrovertial proof of these things, then it would be impossible to concieve that ANYBODY could be a disbeliever.....however, that is not so despite all the posturing and bleating about what "proof" there is, it is a Faith based proof and not in any way substantiated by hard, factual evidence. I can reasonably say.."I do not believe this because you have no proof, you only have Faith" and this is a rational and logical response to being asked to believe an unprovable statement.
After all, the reason to write such words are A) to encourage those who do believe and B ) As was mentioned...To convert those who dont believe by fear of this "Lake of Fire" or whatever.
Quod Erat demonstrandum !!!!!!!
ps Marie Curie discovered ( please note...discovered, not invented) Radium. Being as it was a new element, the periodic table got changed...and it has changed many, many times since as new elements are discovered all the time. Only because of new thinking, machinery and technology are these new elements being discovered...thats science at work. No doubt there will be many new elements discovered once the Large Hadron Collider gets underway...the fact that Radium remained undiscovered until MC found it cannot possibly be considered a mistake...by that token motor cars, aeroplanes, the wheel, sliced bread, antibiotics , computers, internet, China Love Forums, peanut paste, Vegimite, Fosters Beer and Viagra and everything that is modern may be considered to be a mistake according to the Funky musician !!!!!! just because it was not discovered 2000 years ago...I am very baffled.
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Don't be baffled David. Just follow this easy flowchart
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AHA Philip !!!
I have seen the light ;D ;D ;D
Many thanks......
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Dems de facts.
Chinese Whispers...works every time....
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I must be losing my mind because I could swear that funky said that a person can go to hell and then change and go to heaven. (Not the exact words.) I don't see it in his post now.
I will say this to you funky. I don't doubt that you have had unique experiences that helps support your belief in God and Jesus. I have mine too. I don't really use mine as an evangelistic tool simply because they are to difficult to prove. People get hung up on those points. Then you have idiots like Mike Warnke who preach all over the world only to be easily discredited causing many to disbelieve. I would much rather use the truth in the bible.
Hahaha on me. All this time David I thought you were a lawyer. When I asked you to prove it I was thinking as in a courtroom. At a later date I will provide some evidences to support Christianity.
This will be kind of an update at this point. Two years ago I packed away into storage most all of my theological library along with many other things that was causing me great pain at the time. I was angry with God over many things but primarily for the divorce I went through. I owned a furniture store and it went bankrupt. So I have been one angry man for a while.
I'm past a lot of that now thanks to the prayer of others, time and the wonderful understanding Chinese woman. How she has put up with me sometimes is amazing. I ought to marry that girl. ;D About 4 months ago I got pretty sick of myself and my attitude and began praying and reading my bible again. I also began going back to church. I am still walking through a lot of crap due mostly by the loss of a business.
That said David, as soon as I find and unpack my library I will present some rock solid evidence.
Willy, the age of man thing is, in my mind, very simple. God formed time in the beginning. Light-Dark; Day-Night; first day; second day; seasons-growing and harvest. It is all there. It doesn't really take much for me to realize that a year was a year. I would think that the second time I was hotter than I cared to be followed by freezing my backside off that I had come full circle. That was the only the people had to measure time with. And we all know mans propensity to want to measure things.
Adam was 130 years old when had his son Seth and Adam lived to be 930. Seth was 105 when he had Enosh and Seth lived to be 912. Interesting thing is that all of the way up to Noah man lived almost 1000 years. After the flood life became shorter and short and my the time they got to Moses 120 years old was the maximum lifespan. Many experts thing there were severe environmental changes after the flood that brought the shortened lifespan on.
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Funky, Please reread my post of when the bible was written. I said the King James Bible was written 500 years ago. Not that it was translated to english. That is someone's poor excuse. I will review the story so I can be more actuate in dates and names (name of the pocket bible people were smuggling, little book?) that was in english. King James decided to print his own modern version. Thus lies the problem. Being translated from old languages, edited to fit new beliefs. I am putting a link to a Timeline page of the bible. Though they do not touch on the re-editing issue it does show King James bible was not the 1st english translation.
http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/#timeline (http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/#timeline)
I know very well the story of the Dead Sea Scrolls. How they got there, who wrote them, when, and what was written. This is proof of how edited and changed the modern bible is. Oh and by the way Moses did see the promised land he just never stepped foot in it. This will trail off to a whole other subject that has been proven by the digs in Israel and finding timelines of the settlements there. Look into it and be surprised.
Essienes, who were wiped out by Roman soldiers? Not entirely true. Yes there was a hold off by the Romans but the remaining Jews committed suicide by leaping off the cliffs not that the Romans killed them.
PLEASE don't assume that I never read, studied or know the Bible or never stepped foot in many different religious churches and Temples, I have.
You spun off into historical ramblings on the question for proof. The question was not directed of the bible or God but proof of your own words "Lake of fire, you were there".
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OK Vince you got me on 1 point. "He never saw it." I meant it in the sense that he never saw it come to pass. Of course God took Moses to see it from Mount Nebo but God also told him that he would never live there.
But then again you are mixing two stories in your post. Essenes lived in every community but the group of Essenes of the Dead Sea Scrolls fame lived in Qumran several miles north of Masada where Sicarri Jewish community of 960 people committed mass suicide rather than be overrun by Roman Soldiers not the Essenes.
There is a theory that this never happened because there isn't a large mass of bones around Masada to prove it. Two possible explanations. 1. The Roman removed the bodies, something they were known to do, to keep the Jews from making this a holy site. 2. The Jewish families of the dead removed the bodies for a proper burial in Jerusalem.
Oooo this is fun. I haven't exercised this area of my brain in some time.
Phillip I love your flow chart.
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ah yes Masada. I knew that just couldn't remember the name and wanted to finish up the post, so let it slide.
This I was going to put in the last post after I posted but here it is (again) just to make a point. Whether there is a god or not is not my intension to prove. It's more of religion I have a problem with. Being lead by religious leaders that are not anything more then mortal mostly men telling me how to live my life when themselves are dipping into distrustful lives and actions.
I'll lead my own life. Those that are followers can continue being lead by others just leave me out of it. Don't knock on my door asking me to join a church and bring my money with me? (weekly event). and don't pee on my leg and tell it's raining. Be what you want to be just keep it to yourself. I'm not one that is weak and will just follow where told.
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Phillip I love your flow chart.
Well, if I GO WITH THE FLOW
I will be wearing some florescent underwear to feel MORE like a MAN :o
But once older when the FLOW don't flow to good, it will hurt more that only a man knows. :-[
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Hard to know where to start here...too many contradictions to keep them all in my head !!
Firstly Shaun, I also did a Law degree and practiced Law for many years...not any more though.
BTW Massada did happen, they have done a major archeological investigation of the site and found the remains of the massive ramp built by the Romans to get their seige engines close enough to batter this "impregnable" fortress. It is not conclusively proved that the remaining Jews suicided, but it is likely, and there were no survivors.
Shaun, I know full well that you will find masses of historical evidence to supprt Christianity....the worship of Christ by believers is not an issue with me, or disputed. But I fear that you cannot find any definitive proof that Jesus was anything other than a local religious zealot who gathered a following..as many did at that time of history. Priests and such were the real power group back then...if you wanted to get ahead..be a Priest. Nowadays..be a Politician !!
Yes...time was formed (created as part of space-time) at the point of the "big bang" before that nothing..period...existed.So far it is proven that at about 30 millionths of a second after the big bang, the total universe was the size of a basketball and filled with only energy...Higgs/Boson field. The universe has since that time undergone many transformations as it cools towards absolute Zero, when it gets there it ceases to exist...again. Predicted this is about 70 billion years hence...but science claims no proof of that end-game, but has all the proofs necessary for the point to the now time.
How can you say with definition that these characters of yours lived to 1000 years old or so. Nothing in the archeological record, proved by Carbon Dating and many other methods has ever been seem to live anything like this long...and I am going back 3 billion years here, back to pre-Cambrian life forms. There is not one shred of evidence, in the fossil record or more recently (1 million years or so) that living organisms had anything but a SHORTER life than they have today...it is Entropy at work...a force that is inevitable over time.
The steady and sure evolution of the Universe, the creation of matter from energy...(thanks Mr Einstein for explaining all that) and the gradual evolution over time of living organisms and finally us is just the maifestations of how the Universe behaves...It just does and it just is..it is remarkable, beautiful and profound. It needs no human or religious connotation to do it...it just is. Having said "finally us" I dont mean to say thet we are the end of evolution, we will continue to evolve into something else...no, I have no idea what that will be...but it will happen.
If you want to see true, pure, rational religion at work go and read Desiderata...or better yet...read "The Self-aware Universe by Amit Goswami, or The Fabric of the Cosmos by Brian Greene"
Finally, lets examine the claim that "somebody knows somebody who is supposed to be able to mathematically prove that God exists"........Maths 101...to prove a zero sum model (black or white) is easy...1+1 = 2. and so on. To prove a dynamic end model is more difficult, there are more accurate answers...ie quadratic equations where there are 2 solutions. To prove anything where there are many solutions is impossible, you can only demonstrate the PROBABILITY of a solution...ie I cannot prove that Willy will or will not win the Lottery, neither can I prove or disprove that Shaun will live to 1000 years old.
In probability terms I can define the odds against Willy or Shaun pretty closely...but it may not be the right answer.
Leading on from this, to prove the existence of "God...a conceptual, or God....an actual " defies any mathematical process I have ever heard of. It would be the same as asking for proof that the colour red is happy !!!!! or to prove that a goldfish appreciates Mozart....Of course, I can manipulate numbers to tell me anything...but that is not proof.
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Thanks to Shaun, David and Vince G for your replies.
Could someone tell me if there is a way I could save my work when I'm posting? I have accidentally wiped out my replies twice, and that was when I was nearly done.
Thanks again to Shaun and Arnold for promising to pray for John1964 when he nearly gave up on his girl. I read somewhere if a Christian says he is going to pray for someone, it carries import, even if they don't actually follow through. So I wasn't particularly surprised when his problem was resolved a few days or is it hours later, and now they are happily married. That's one of the ways Christians help this world, through prayer. (ye are the light of this world, Jesus says)
I just want someone out there to know if they got into any serious trouble where money, science or people can't help, Jesus is always there to help. I remember when I got into serious trouble that night more than 30 years ago, His was the only name I called, and He came and saved me, and gave me a new lease on life. Though I more or less used to make fun of the Baptist preachers, guess what, their message got through. I can't go into all the details about what happened much, unfortunately; not that it is going to help any.
Vince and David. I can't prove it scientifically or otherwise, but I am glad you mentioned Faith, David. Faith works with believing. "He came into His own, and His own received Him not. But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that BELIEVED on His name" ( John 1;10) iF ONLY PEOPLE KNEW HOW GOOD GOD IS!
I appreciate you all being here. I have unspoken requests. Please pray for me all ye who BELIEVE. Thanks!
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Thanks again to Shaun and Arnold for promising to pray for John1964 when he nearly gave up on his girl. I read somewhere if a Christian says he is going to pray for someone, it carries import, even if they don't actually follow through. So I wasn't particularly surprised when his problem was resolved a few days or is it hours later, and now they are happily married. That's one of the ways Christians help this world, through prayer. (ye are the light of this world, Jesus says)
I just knew I should never come to this part of the Forum...but I guess I cant resist it...good for the pshyche I think ?????
Now let me get this straight in my head...the resolution of John 1964's problem was entirely due to the few Christians here who prayed for him and all those others who said they would pray...but didn't.......is that a correct interpretation of your words ??
If so, all the wishes, advice, help and support given to him at the time by many, many non-believers both from within this Forum and also from his own friends and family was a crock of crap...is that right.
To follow that analogy, if nobody prayed for him, or nobody even THOUGHT of praying for him, than every other bit of support he got was worthless and would not have helped him......
If in the normal course of life's events, if you said you were going to do something...then you better get on and do it...how possibly can it be worthy to claim supernatural powers from prayer if it was only hollow words and never got followed through...I ask you...do you honestly expect me to believe that. People who make promises and dont do it are regarded as something sinister in my World.
I think I will skulk back to my own World now....this could all give me a heart attack
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Wait wait wait one more thing before I make my hopefully last comment here. This line "Christians help this world, through prayer. (ye are the light of this world, Jesus says)" are you telling us that Jesus meant this about Christians?
Changed my mind, Not worth even another comment. I can see the falseness in his story.
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???
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? ? ? ? ? ...too
David
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David you mention contradictions and I am not sure what you are talking about. Are you saying that I contradict myself? Do I contradict what most Christians believe? Or do I contradict your belief?
I've been fortunate enough to stand atop Masada, Qumran, Ein Gedi, and in the Dead Sea twice in my life (belch to the Dead Sea). I've have had the pleasure to be a part of some of the archaeological digs in Israel as a geophysicist. The amazing thing to me about the ramp at Masada is that it was never completed which is one of the evidences used for the suicide theory.
I don't have all of my books back in my house yes but I do have one. It is the complete works of Flavius Josephus or simply Josephus. In case you don't know who he is; he is a Jewish historian who lived at the same time Jesus did. To the best of our knowledge Josephus was not a follower of Jesus; just a well respected historian and contemporary to Jesus. Here is what he wrote about Jesus;
"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it is lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."
The 1000 year old thing always twists people up a little. When you look at this idea and you believe evolution to be true then it is impossible to believe but the key factor is in believing in evolution. Now I know that I have placed myself with many of the spiritual wackos that are out there but, I have not seen one shred of actual evidence that evolution is a true science. From a scientific standpoint then it is not true. Science is based off of fact and evidence, you said it yourself. There has not been one fossil found that shows the evolutionary process of a species.
We do find however that there is a harmony of biblical history and scientific fact. At one time the earth was completely covered with water. The reason I mention the Christian flood theory is because it is a key factor in understanding the length of human life.
Humor me a little. Man was created by God in a perfect environment for health, wealth and longevity. (Even science will tell you that the human body was designed or created for a much longer lifespan.) Mankind was banished from the garden and lived in a less than perfect environment. Some 2000 years later when Noah was born mankind had become so corrupt that Noah was the only one left that was righteous man. So God wiped out the the world saving Noah and his family. After the flood human life became shorter and shorter until we come to Moses who lived 120 years and almost 90% reduction in human life.
Now I know you think this is nothing more than a fairy tale but what is one of the main carriers of disease? Water.
Second for some reason we like to think of the people as living in dog years. As I mentioned before time was established in the beginning. Math was more than likely the second thing so even if they counted every season change as a new year they would have lived to 250.
After counting came greed. I get two you get one.
I for one enjoy talking with David and Vince about these things. I think it is a good thing to have a healthy debate and then walk away still respecting each other. :o You will still respect me in the morning won't you? ;D
Thanks for mentioning The Self-aware Universe and The Fabric of the Cosmos. I have read excerpts from them but not the whole book. They are on my to do list.. One of these days... ::)
Keep posting guys.
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Willy, I could tell from here that blind girl could see. Besides the color thing? (ha) If she was blind and could see they would have to gradually bring light to her eyes (could take days) so the eyes can adjust. If the eyes are exposed to bright sunlight from complete darkness? It can cause blindness…. so that's a catch 22
That right Vince. This same man has a 'Nurse' - who justs happens to be is wife who can place her hand on a womens stomach feel around and announce that the woman's ovarian cancer she was was gone!
The same man is under investigation for other illegal acts as well.
As Scottish Robbie is aware I am against all Charlatans who prey on peoples beliefs whatever their calling.
I was in Nigerian at the same time as Benny Hinn was there crying over losing 2 million dollars on a crusade in that country that he though would net millions more. Please feel sorry for the man whose take is over 100 million dollars a year.
Willy
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Willy, when you said Benny Hinn you didn't have to say more. I have a friend who had a son with a rare lung disease. He took his son from Texas to Florida to have Benny lay hands on his son for healing. Benny declare him healed and within a few weeks the young man died from the same disease. The family was devastated. I do believe God can and does heal people. I've seen it happen but I don't believe Benny Hinn can. I don't believe the miraculous ever follows the spectacular.
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Benny Hinn does far more damage than anyone that I can think of. He can hardly be called an ambassador of the Christian church. But unfortunately, many people get sucked in to the one who stands on his soap box, shouting the loudest.
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There seems to be something missing in the YEAR facts. Yes they could have counted days and nights? but they did not total to 365 days as a year or as we know it today. 30 days & nights could have been 1 year to them? or did they have a mini sundial on their wrist? Enlighten me.
Evolution? I'm not understanding when I hear or read that it's not proven? or science has not proven evolution? and funny enough I have only heard this from christian leaders? But science has proven by way of remains found in africa, europe and asia. So is it the word evolution getting a spin on it? as in adam and eve weren't evolved? but the other humans at that time were? In another post somewhere about adam & eve it was said that there was others that married their sons? So what's the straight story?
Now for proof of evolution....
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As Scottish Robbie is aware I am against all Charlatans who prey on peoples beliefs whatever their calling.
I'll vow on that, Willy is often (nearly twice three times a week, going on about it!!! :o :o :o
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Interesting and True! ::)
“The president of the United States has claimed, on more than one occasion, to be in dialogue with God. If he said that he was talking to God through his hairdryer, this would precipitate a national emergency. I fail to see how the addition of a hairdryer makes the claim more ridiculous or offensive.”
― Sam Harris, Letter to a Christian Nation
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I wrote a paper on this several years ago. Got an excellent grade on it. It's packed away but I think I can pull some of the supporting documents off of the internet. This may take a while so I am not avoiding your question.
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I've been fortunate enough to stand atop Masada, Qumran, Ein Gedi, and in the Dead Sea twice in my life (belch to the Dead Sea). I've have had the pleasure to be a part of some of the archaeological digs in Israel as a geophysicist. The amazing thing to me about the ramp at Masada is that it was never completed which is one of the evidences used for the suicide theory.
"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it is lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."
The 1000 year old thing always twists people up a little. When you look at this idea and you believe evolution to be true then it is impossible to believe but the key factor is in believing in evolution. Now I know that I have placed myself with many of the spiritual wackos that are out there but, I have not seen one shred of actual evidence that evolution is a true science. From a scientific standpoint then it is not true. Science is based off of fact and evidence, you said it yourself. There has not been one fossil found that shows the evolutionary process of a species.
We do find however that there is a harmony of biblical history and scientific fact. At one time the earth was completely covered with water. The reason I mention the Christian flood theory is because it is a key factor in understanding the length of human life.
Humor me a little. Man was created by God in a perfect environment for health, wealth and longevity. (Even science will tell you that the human body was designed or created for a much longer lifespan.) Mankind was banished from the garden and lived in a less than perfect environment. Some 2000 years later when Noah was born mankind had become so corrupt that Noah was the only one left that was righteous man. So God wiped out the the world saving Noah and his family. After the flood human life became shorter and shorter until we come to Moses who lived 120 years and almost 90% reduction in human life.
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OK..here we go for round 12 !!!
I dispute that the ramp at Massada was never completed. Wooden support structures were found right up to the top and carbon dated to coincide with the rest of the ramp. The ramp did not need to actually get to the Citadel...only close enought to use missiles to batter down the walls, at which point the Romans could get in and butcher the inhabitants (if they had not suicided first ??)...the Romans were a bit touchy about people who disagreed with them !!!!
Whatever Josephus wrote, you cannot be certain that it was not the embellishment of the facts to suit the arguement....BTW, neither can I prove that it was not...so we have a Mexican stand-off.
There have been squillions of fossils found that clearly demonstrate the gradual change both within a genera and within a species...the remarkable work Darwin did on the Galapagos with the seed eating finches is one example...the slow change from Homo Erectus, through Ramapithecus, Homo Habilis to Modern Man is another, fully supported by the fossil record....to name but 2...I could go on for 20 pages, but I wont
At one time the Earth had much more free water...agreed, but this was in the Pleistocene period before Glaciation and before Gondwanaland (the only land mass at the time ) began to break up into Continents (Tectonic Plate Drift). There is no evidence for recent time (300, 000 years) that there was a period of NO land. The nett content of water has not changed since the World began...neither can it, because of the Laws of Conservation of Mass and Energy...if there is more water, its got to come from somewhere !!! What has changed and will constantly continue to change is the ratio of water to ice/snow (phase shift)
The human body, regretfully can only exist because it is fuelled by Oxygen which is a vicious Oxidising Agent. Therefore the fuel we ingest carries the seed of our own destruction. As an Oxydative machine, it is thought that the human body has an ultimate life span of about 130 years...(Gene Tasselation).
That is why the dinosaurs were so big, in the Jurasic and Cretaceous, the Oxygen content of the atmosphere was over 40 %...more fuel, more growth, more size....but there is no evidence that they lived for extended years...just did it all quicker due to high fuel content.
I cant humour you Shaun because you say "Humor me a little. Man was created by God in a perfect environment for health, wealth and longevity."...and this fundamental proposition of yours is totally rejected by me....so all "logic" that follows from this fatally flawed statement can never make any sense to me. I cannot even think how to begin a rational debate which incorporates the arguement " So God wiped out the world saving Noah and his family."...because I absolutely, utterly and totally reject the premise.
S' all interesting...but as always, neither view will prevail...you will never convince me...and I know I will never convince you...or those of your following.
Next episode, we might explore the whole question of time/age/age-time...thanks to Brian Greene...or maybe not...I am getting a bit bored with trying to convert you Heathens to the real religion of the Universe !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I was in church today and thinking about what Vince said in his post about "ye are the light of this world" and here is the reading we had today:
2 Corinthians 4
The Light of Christ’s Gospel
1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us.
so ...
If we have God in our hearts, then we have the light of God in us ... that is how we are the light of the world .. as God works in us and through us.
Mike
Mike...I am sorry but I just dont know what these words mean...I dont understand the English, the context or the Grammar.
Would it not be useful to stop speaking in "Biblease" and try to get your point across in plain, legible, understandable English......
Or does quoting in Biblease add some weight, mystery and authority to your points...whatever they were !!!...as if only you "believers " have the privilege of understanding them...us Heathens can only look on in wonder at such profound words of gibberish.
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Thank you mpo4747 for referring to the comment I made which Vince tried to disagree with. It is my mistake. I thought most people knew that verse from the Sermon on the Mount. "Ye are the light of the world" (Matt 5:14)
"Let your light so shine that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in heaven"(Matt 5:16).
This is the link to Thomas Welch's story. He is the only man I know of who has also seen the lake of fire.
http://www.bibleprobe.com/thomaswelch.htm (http://www.bibleprobe.com/thomaswelch.htm)
These are people who went to hell, which is different from the Lake of fire.
http://bibleprobe.com/hell2.htm (http://bibleprobe.com/hell2.htm)
Vince, I know there are many, many versions of Bibles out there ( a trick of the enemy, he can't take the Bible away now, so he is diluting the true Word with all kinds of translations) So if you need a Bible, choose the King James Version. It may not be the first to have been written, but I believe it is the best.
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Yeah right? So funky Frank, are you in search of a chinese woman? or are you here to heal us all?
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Guys, while I want debate and discussion on religion, I want to make sure that nobody feels they are being attacked for their views...and that means, their views in whatever direction they may be. This thread was created as a safe place to have open and frank discussion on religion. Debate is healthy...I just don't want to see it get personal...it looks like it is heading there in a few of the posts. Just want to remind everyone to keep it above the waist, and keep it clean. All opinions are welcome on this thread.
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I believe I have found her, thank you very much!
I just have to go visit. Incidentally, I found her thru prayer, too. God chose her for me thru the Word. They were four. Fei, Angel, Lily and one whose name I've forgotten. After praying for which to choose, later that day, I happened to be reading my Bible. Came across this verse in Hosea 14:5, " I will be as the dew unto Israel,( God calls all His children Israel, meaning "Prince of God", that's what we are, see. ) he shall grow as the lily". Immediately, He quickened me in the Spirit to let me know that Lily is the answer to my prayer, and that I will grow old with her. Can you believe that?.
;D
That is why it is vital to be born again, so He can direct you by His Spirit. Isaiah 30:21 says" And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee saying, This is the way, walk ye in it". He still direct those who trust Him. He lets me know if for whatsoever reason I don't like her, that is fine too. The Lord never forces His children into unfruitful relationships.
"O TASTE and see that the Lord is good. Blessed is the man that trusteth in Him(Psalm 34:8 )
"Delight thyself also in the Lord, and He shall give thee the DESIRES of thine heart (Psalm37:4)
I've just finished listening to the Sunday sermon by the funny late Dr. J. Vernon McGee, (ttb.org) formerly of Texas, and he just mentioned the Bible is the most fun book there is. I couldn't agree more! Too bad a lot of Christians look so mournful and apprehensive all the time( I ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D confess I do sometimes myself when my faith is low, and I forget the promises of God) but most times I'm joyful and high as a kite, and I don't need drugs to do it! Free gift of the Holy Ghost!
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Now if anyone wants a good read then I have read a certain book a few times. Probably one of the few that I have ever read from cover to cover!
Masses of killing, Murder, rape, treachery and a bit of sodomy thrown in for good measure.
You guessed right as to what book it is.
Willy
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OK ...point taken Martin.
I am starting to lose my cool...so I am outta here for another 12 months ;D ;D ;D
Maybe venture back when I calm down !!
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I believe I have found her, thank you very much!
I just have to go visit. Incidentally, I found her thru prayer, too. God chose her for me thru the Word. They were four. Fei, Angel, Lily and one whose name I've forgotten. After praying for which to choose, later that day, I happened to be reading my Bible. Came across this verse in Hosea 14:5, " I will be as the dew unto Israel,( God calls all His children Israel, meaning "Prince of God", that's what we are, see. ) he shall grow as the lily". Immediately, He quickened me in the Spirit to let me know that Lily is the answer to my prayer, and that I will grow old with her. Can you believe that?.
;D
That is why it is vital to be born again, so He can direct you by His Spirit. Isaiah 30:21 says" And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee saying, This is the way, walk ye in it". He still direct those who trust Him. He lets me know if for whatsoever reason I don't like her, that is fine too. The Lord never forces His children into unfruitful relationships.
Funkymusic lets hope it works OK. I take it she is a Christian herself.
Unless you can speak fluent Chinese, either Cantonese or Mandarin you will have difficulty in following the Government controlled church services here.
I have a Bible with both English and Chinese translation so after more than two years attending a church here I can follow roughly what is being said.
Singing- I follow in English as I have a dual language Hymn book as well for thoise I do not know. For Praise and Worship I know most of the songs as I have a business selling Gospel and modern Christian tracks.
Willy
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OK ...point taken Martin.
I am starting to lose my cool...so I am outta here for another 12 months ;D ;D ;D
Maybe venture back when I calm down !!
C'mon David - you cannot be going just when your Cricket team is starting to do well again! Who will be jibing me about an English defeat.
You have some good arguements and I cannot see anything personal in them.
You are really highlighting things that I brought up. Many christians have a blind side even though we wont admit it.
I think in truth many Christians are really Humanists who like to live in a Christian manner. I am sure that you follow in the Humanist course. You don't steal, you don't kill and I hope you are no longer coveting your neighbours wife!
Willy
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I think in truth many Christians are really Humanists who like to live in a Christian manner. I am sure that you follow in the Humanist course. You don't steal, you don't kill and I hope you are no longer coveting your neighbours wife!
Willy
You haven't seen my neighbor's wife ::) ::) ::) ::)
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Now if anyone wants a good read then I have read a certain book a few times. Probably one of the few that I have ever read from cover to cover!
Masses of killing, Murder, rape, treachery and a bit of sodomy thrown in for good measure.
You guessed right as to what book it is.
Willy
Mrs Beatons cookery book ???????????????
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David E..calm your jets my friend, dont you dare go for twelve months...
Whos gonna keep me in line? keep me on the straight and narrow :( :( :(
Like Willy said I never read any personal attack from you :o
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Ha Ha David, Very funny.
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I believe I have found her, thank you very much!
I just have to go visit. Incidentally, I found her thru prayer, too. God chose her for me thru the Word. They were four. Fei, Angel, Lily and one whose name I've forgotten. After praying for which to choose, later that day, I happened to be reading my Bible. Came across this verse in Hosea 14:5, " I will be as the dew unto Israel,( God calls all His children Israel, meaning "Prince of God", that's what we are, see. ) he shall grow as the lily". Immediately, He quickened me in the Spirit to let me know that Lily is the answer to my prayer, and that I will grow old with her. Can you believe that?.
;D
That is interesting...when I was looking for my Chinese partner of the future, I was reading a book that had just been released and I was at this paragraph:
"In fact, the reduction in symmetry arising from the formation of the Higg's Ocean is more extensive still. Above 10 Trillion degrees, when the Higgs field had yet to condense, not only were all species of fundamental matter particles massless, but also, without the resistive drag from a Higg's Ocean, all species of force particles were massless as well: (Today the W and Z messenger particles of the weak nuclear force have masses that are about 86 and 97 times the mass of the Proton). And, as originally discovered in the '60's by Sheldon Glashow, Steven Weingerg and Abus Salem, the masslessness of all the force particles was accompanied by another fantastically beautiful symmetry"
Can you imagine how exited I was...surely this was a sign that I would find my future wife and that she would be named......Higgs, Sheldon, Steven, Abus, or even W or Z...alas...her name is Ming...bummer !!!
ps..the logic is identical......
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Ah Dave you just didn't look hard enough. Turn the W, take the I & G (Higgs) and the N from either Sheldon or Steven and you have....
MING Seek and ye shall find. Matthew 7:7
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You boys ain't right.
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To the Moderators,
I was on Steve Pavlina's (Self Help Developer) website sometime ago, and he advocates putting up of "Donations Buttons" on the website of all his followers, since he makes, according to him at least $40, 000 a month from donations alone.
What you do here is equally or more important.
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David E, if you are planning a hiatus from this site because of my posts, then don't bother. I won't be posting here much longer for a long while yet. Oh, not because of oppositon.( I am not here for any personal agenda, but ultimately for individuals', who need solutons to life's numerous problems to trust Him.("whoso findeth me findeth life,... they that hate me, love DEATH. Proverbs 8: 35,36) It just takes too much of my time now, and I definitely have to finish some work before going to China this summer hopefully. I nearly fainted yesterday during recording sessions in the studio, because I'm trying to do too much at once. Never happened before. But thank God, finally did a great job in a very short time. Impressed recording engineer greatly.
And Vince, only Jesus heals.
There is this story of the rich man and Lazarus I was looking for I wanted to include in a post. I knew it was in Luke 16 or 14, but when I went there last Saturday, couldn't find it (too tired, perhaps). Anyway, Luke 16;31 says "If they listen not to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded even if one rose from the dead." Very sad, but true. All I'm doing here is probably for one person God loves very much, and ultimately going to use greatly
For Christians and Bible scholars out there, have you ever wondered why the Rich man's name was not given but Lazarus' was? I wondered about that myself, till God showed me an answer. It shows God is not only very merciful, but also has a sense of humour as well.
In John chapter 11:42, we read of Jesus raising a man from the dead. What was his name? Lazarus! God granted the rich man his wish. In Luke 16:22, the rich man had initially wanted Abraham to send Lazarus to bring him just a drop of water since he was being tormented in the flames. When that request was denied because there a great gulf separating the then Paradise and Hell, he wanted Lazarus sent back to the earth so he could warn the rich man's five brothers still living, so they too don't end up in that awful place, hell. Abraham's answer is Luke 16:31.
But God went beyond what Abraham answered and sent back Lazarus from the dead through Jesus! See! ( albeit a different one).
And guess what the reaction was? They plotted to kill Jesus for bringing back Lazarus! And also poor Lazarus! John 12:10-11," the chief priests plotted that they might put Lazarus ALSO to death, for because of him, many of the Jews went away and believed on Jesus!" How crazy can you get? folks. All the man did was being brought back to life by Jesus. He had no hand in his resurrection whatsoever, and they were going to kill him again!
God has since that time brought back thousands from the dead, including the six men whose video I have posted on pg 31. Make of it what you will. The decision ultimately rests on the individual.
Anyway Christians here, hold on to Christ, and those who don't know Him, find Him.
Find the best lady you can in China or elsewhere. Make tons of money. Make the best out of your life, knowing one day, sooner or later, you will stand before Him, justified or condemned.
Proverbs 18:22 " Whoso findeth a wife findeth a GOOD thing, and obtains favour of the Lord". BYE.
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I am not the slightest bit interested in making a "hiatus" or any such thing on the Forum in my replies to you or anybody's posts.
I have been a Bro here for long enough for the people who are significant in my life to know that I am a crusader for BALANCE.....and a somewhat caring individual for those I respect and admire.
That is the creed I chose for myself and my life.
You have the freedom to post any ideas and thoughts you lilke here, provided they dont get offensive.
I (and anybody else) have a similar freedom to provide a balanced opposite view if I choose...again, if I dont get offensive
The purpose of a Forum is debate, discussion, information and support.
You may not accept that you could posibly be wrong in your views...but that does not protect you from a balanced opposition to them.......
You are very quick to threaten me and people like me with the most horrendous punishments, evil outcomes and eternal dammnation if we dont convert to your views on the World....
I dont find it at all surprising that people like me feel we have a right to respond to this "Bible Bullying"
ps...It is quite fascinating for me that you never respond to any SPECIFIC points of discussion, only come back at me/Vince with more "Bible-speak"...do you not have an opinion of your own that you can
articulate in plain English ???...just curious.
pps..If you want to see how a Man with deeply held religious conviction responds to objective debate without the need to threaten all and sundry who dont share their views , with gross punishment, by burning for
eternity in a "Lake of Fire , then go and read some posts from Shaun or Mike (MPO)...you may learn how to earn respect.
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ps...It is quite fascinating for me that you never respond to any SPECIFIC points of discussion, only come back at me/Vince with more "Bible-speak"...do you not have an opinion of your own that you can
articulate in plain English ...just curious.
pps..If you want to see how a Man with deeply held religious conviction responds to objective debate without the need to threaten all and sundry who dont share their views , with gross punishment, by burning for
eternity in a "Lake of Fire , then go and read some posts from Shaun or Mike (MPO)...you may learn how to earn respect.
David, We share the same op pinion, You just know how to put it into words better than I.
Cheers
Leeroy
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I also dislike People pushing Religion on me. Especially when it comes from a Step-daughter with her Faith Baptist view of me also going to burn forever. If that is the case, so it will be. Funny though, when they tell you this..they always do it with a smile! Almost, like their glad and it gives them plus points in some strange way?
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Mike , I don't want you to think .. I don't believe in the Lord . I just do it my own way and not have someone tell me .. I need to do it that way. I've been Blessed more than I deserve (I think), so I believe when you ask Him for help .. he's listening. I seen his work in me and how he takes care of me in ways only I could see . I can talk about it, but I'm not one to convince other's .. "SEE" !
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I have a questionthat maybe could start a debate
Was John really Mary in the da vinci painting?
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I'm not sure what you are talking about Rob.
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I believe I have found her, thank you very much!
I just have to go visit. Incidentally, I found her thru prayer, too. God chose her for me thru the Word. They were four. Fei, Angel, Lily and one whose name I've forgotten.
The fourth was called Zhou from your posting on the official forms September 20th 2010. So if Lily is the one that you have to go see, why then 16 months later you still have not gone and seen her?
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I have a questionthat maybe could start a debate
Was John really Mary in the da vinci painting?
Go back and watch it again Robbie.
Then give us your answer first.
Willy
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Shaun in the da vinci painting of 'the last supper' the twelve apostles are sitting at the table breaking bread. To jesus right hand side is supposed to be John, however it really does look like a woman, some say that it is Mary Magdaline. what do you people think, is it?
I think it does look like a woman
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I have a questionthat maybe could start a debate
Was John really Mary in the da vinci painting?
Go back and watch it again Robbie.
Then give us your answer first.
Willy
I have been looking at the portrait ... and I think I see a different character ....
not anyone named Mary or John ...
(http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs30/f/2008/114/9/e/Mr_Bean_Mona_Lisa_by_Eeveeisgerman.png)
Haha ahh so thats why shaun did not understand mt original question...
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I have a questionthat maybe could start a debate
Was John really Mary in the da vinci painting?
Go back and watch it again Robbie.
Then give us your answer first.
Willy
I have been looking at the portrait ... and I think I see a different character ....
not anyone named Mary or John ...
(http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs30/f/2008/114/9/e/Mr_Bean_Mona_Lisa_by_Eeveeisgerman.png)
Haha ahh so thats why shaun did not understand mt original question...
By Golly. I see an uncanny likeness - take away the wig and you have a certain Scottish chappie who will be nameless. Shall we call him scottish_nameless?
Willy
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Ponder this.. What if he did marry Mary? Why not? He was a jewish man (a rabbi) not a catholic priest. Another spin on it is Mary was a very common name then and this Mary may have not been the same sinning Mary. Just one of the editing or misunderstanding? who knows?
Same about his brother James, just pops up from nowhere?
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Vince, James just didn't jump out of nowhere. There are better documents available but I find no error with the following explanation of James and Jude. Here is the link;
http://www.ucg.org/christian-living/profiles-faith-james-half-brother-jesus (http://www.ucg.org/christian-living/profiles-faith-james-half-brother-jesus)
I think that it is possible Jesus could have married Mary but I also think that it would have been recorded in the bible. Jesus would have also given charge of his wife along with his mother to John. He only gave charge of his mother. A lot of people like to talk about this but really it isn't worth it because it doesn't change anything about the bible.
I did some study about the time issue and did run across this on the internet;
F. R. Stephenson and J. M. Steele both from the University of Durham in a paper titled “Astronomical Dating of The Babylonian Texts Describing the Total Solar Eclipse S.E. 175” wrote that, “The Babylonians counted years from either the start of a king’s reign or the Seleucid Era (311B.C.); however some late texts also used the Arsacid Era (246B.C.) in parallel.”
“Most years contained 12 lunar months; occasionally an intercalary month was inserted in order to keep the calendar roughly in step with the seasons.”
This is like the Jesus married Mary issue too. There isn't any evidence to support that people counted in dog years, for a lack of a better term, 6000 years ago. This is an article that takes it back to 750BC and identifies it as being nearly the same as today.
Shaun
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You know that there is a modern update to Washington crossing the Delaware that tries to be more realistic. The Last Supper was painted way after the original event compared to the Crossings painting. So any debate on this painting would be debating Leonardo's vision & not historical accuracy. I will now turtle up on my stance after saying with a sigh, Raphael's shell game is better.
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Ok, it says, While James grew up in the same house with Jesus in Nazareth ? this is an assumption, and so is, Though Jesus and James had the same mother, Jesus was the son not of Joseph, as James was, but of God the Father Himself.
No one knows for sure how, where or anything else about Jesus and the family until later on in his life. James did not pop into the story till almost christ's resurrection.
Put the bible down, step back and imagine christ as just a famous named man. You know nothing of the bible stories. What kind of man is he? He seems to me to be a teacher (that's what a rabbi is) a kind man that had his rebel moments. Most people treated him like a low life, just a laborer. Take away all the hocus-pocus stories and you still have a good man helping people learn. This is how I see it. Even in the bible Jesus did not say he was the son of God. He said father but that could have meant as creator. We still do this. Your child is born you say or think Thank God it was born with all 10 fingers and toes? Does this mean God fathered the child? Well that's my logical opinion about it.
Time and counting years? Each region/tribe/civilization throughout the world had their own way of doing this. I go with the one most reasonable. Those forty years in the desert could have easily been 40 days. Just someones human mistake or an exaggeration? No one knows.
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People Good or Bad
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One of the best voices has been taken from us,, RIP dear whitney :'( :'(
Not only did you gave a special voice you looked beautiful too
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Mike sorry to hear about your mom :D
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Well I have found the Religion thread. Although Christians do not regard their faith as a religion.
What are my views.
In China I accompany my wife to Church every Sunday. She was a Church goer here before I arrived on the scene. She says a prayer every morning when she wakes and every night before sleeping.
I have been attending this same church here since 2009 and I have my own special place where there is a Chinese/English Bible and Hymn book awaiting me every Sunday.
I can understand maybe ten words during the service but I like the atmosphere within a Church, the people etc. My wife does everything for my pleasure and comfort 24 hours a day 7 days a week. So the least I can do is to give her 2 hours a week to accompany her to where she wants to be.
I do not know about other religions just Christianity. But people receive a great deal of calmness in their lives from it. OK some go way over the top but that is the same whatever you follow whether its religion or sport or stamp collecting, But on the whole Christians I find are more calm and relaxed.
We all have heard about Christian Leaders abusing people in sexual ways. That is true but the same goes on with sports coaches, scout leaders even teachers in fact anywhere where people are in charge of people.
I have several pastors and church leaders amongst my friends. They know my views and respect them as I respect theirs. I am against pastor who consider themselves as Gods nominee on earth and whose word is law as far as they are concerned but that goes for many religions as well.
I do not assign to the fact that there is another life at the end of this one. I think we have just one. So probably I am a Humanist rather that a Christian. But I am comforted by the fact that tens of millions do believe that there is.
As David E says it is a way of controlling people. Can you imagine just what the World would be like without any religion. The mayhem that would go on as every one was treating everyone else the way they wanted. Pure anarchy would reign.
Mind you Christianity has enabled me to travel the world. India and West Africa, Nigeria and Ghana in particular where there seems to be a church on every corner. It also enables me to be in China.
I am against American millionaire preachers who have made themselves a good life from telling people what they want to hear. I maybe should not say too much about that as many will know that I have two pensions and I run a Christian Music Site and allows me a fairly comfortable life by doubly my monthly income! But at least I am giving people something not take take take as many do.
Willy
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Yes Willy I know the cornerstone of the christian music site you have and that is fine with me. Most of these christians either have me scratching my head or laughing out loud from, not to sure if they are misinterpreted or it's ignorance? They will take one thing from the bible, twist it, turn it, spilt in to fit what they want it to be, then insist they are right?
Here in the US or at least the southeast where I am they block out the word God on TV? Except on a religious show. My guess is they are taking from the early part of the bible where in hebrew it is said not to speak god's name. God is not his name it's a title. God's name starts with a Y and sounds something like yahoo. What astounds me is if the name God shouldn't be written how do we know how to spell it? How come Jesus' name can be written? D'uh.
Dave and you are both right ("The mayhem that would go on") in keeping people under control. That is the concept of religion. The jewish religion took off because it was the first to have only one god. The religions that followed just followed suit.
As I said before and will say again, if a religion helps you, gives you peace, that's ok, just don't tell me false statements, or give me propaganda to get me to join. I enjoy the entertainment from this side of the fence.
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Vince! If you asked people who is Jesus?I am shore all won't say he is God or Y and sounds something like yahoo.
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... I run a Christian Music Site and allows me a fairly comfortable life by doubly my monthly income! But at least I am giving people something not take take take as many do.
Willy
While on the topic of Christian music, giving and taking...
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Prosecutors have charged the founder of one of Singapore's largest evangelical churches with fraud
for allegedly funneling millions of dollars to his wife's singing career.
City Harvest Church founder Kong Hee was charged Wednesday with three counts of conspiracy to commit criminal breach of trust.
Kong faces up to 20 years in prison or a fine for each charge if found guilty.
Kong is free on bail of 500,000 Singapore dollars (NZ$494,000).
Prosecutors charged four other church leaders with breach of trust and falsification of accounts.
The Charities Commissioner said Kong helped syphon at least SG$23 million (NZ$22.7 million ) of church funds
to finance the career of his wife Ho Yeow Sun.
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Onwards Christian soldiers/businessmen
Nice work if you can get it ;)
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As I said before and will say again, if a religion helps you, gives you peace, that's ok, just don't tell me false statements, or give me propaganda to get me to join. I enjoy the entertainment from this side of the fence.
Maybe this is relevant??
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The results from a recent poll published by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life reveal what social scientists have known for a long time:
White Evangelical Christians are the group least likely to support politicians or policies that reflect the actual teachings of Jesus.
It is perhaps one of the strangest, most dumb-founding ironies in contemporary American culture.
Evangelical Christians, who most fiercely proclaim to have a personal relationship with Christ, who most confidently declare their belief that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, who go to church on a regular basis, pray daily, listen to Christian music, and place God and His Only Begotten Son at the center of their lives, are simultaneously the very people most likely to reject his teachings and despise his radical message.
Jesus unambiguously preached mercy and forgiveness. These are supposed to be cardinal virtues of the Christian faith.
And yet Evangelicals are the most supportive of the death penalty, draconian sentencing, punitive punishment over rehabilitation, and the governmental use of torture.
Jesus exhorted humans to be loving, peaceful, and non-violent.
And yet Evangelicals are the group of Americans most supportive of easy-access weaponry, little-to-no regulation of handgun and semi-automatic gun ownership, not to mention the violent military invasion of various countries around the world.
Jesus was very clear that the pursuit of wealth was inimical to the Kingdom of God, that the rich are to be condemned, and that to be a follower of Him means to give one's money to the poor.
And yet Evangelicals are the most supportive of corporate greed and capitalistic excess, and they are the most opposed to institutional help for the nation's poor -- especially poor children. They hate anything that smacks of "socialism," even though that is essentially what their Savior preached. They despise food stamp programs, subsidies for schools, hospitals, job training -- anything that might dare to help out those in need. Even though helping out those in need was exactly what Jesus urged humans to do.
In short, Evangelicals are that segment of America which is the most pro-militaristic, pro-gun, and pro-corporate, while simultaneously claiming to be most ardent lovers of the Prince of Peace.
What's the deal?
This article was co-authored by Dan Cady, an assistant professor of history at California State University, Fresno
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This "explanation" , from Anthony DeMello, a Jesuit priest subsequently "banned" by the Catholic Church
for straying from the "doctrine of the faith"
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Anthony De Mello, "On Waking Up"
"Spirituality means waking up. Most people, even though they don’t know it, are asleep. They’re born asleep, they live asleep, they marry in their sleep, they breed children in their sleep, they die in their sleep without ever waking up. They never understand the loveliness and the beauty of this thing that we call human existence. You know ~ all mystics ~ Catholic, Christian, non-Christian, no matter what their theology, no matter what their religion ~ are unanimous on one thing: that all is well, all is well. Though everything is a mess, all is well. Strange paradox, to be sure. But, tragically, most people never get to see that all is well because they are asleep. They are having a nightmare.
Last year on Spanish television I heard a story about this gentleman who knocks on his son’s door. "Jaime," he says, "wake up!" Jaime answers, "I don’t want to get up, Papa." The father shouts, "Get up, you have to go to school." Jaime says, "I don’t want to go to school." "Why not?" asks the father. "Three reasons," says Jaime. First, because it’s so dull; second, the kids tease me; and third, I hate school. And the father says, "Well, I am going to give you three reasons why you must go to school. First, because it is your duty; second, because you are forty-five years old, and third, because you are the headmaster." Wake up! Wake up! You’ve grown up. You’re too big to be asleep. Wake up! Stop playing with your toys.
Most people tell you they want to get out of kindergarten, but don’t believe them. Don’t believe them! All they want you to do is to mend their broken toys. "Give me back my wife. Give me back my job. Give me back my money. Give me back my reputation, my success." This is what they want; they want their toys replaced. That’s all. Even the best psychologist will tell you that, that people don’t really want to be cured. What they want is relief; a cure is painful.
Waking up is unpleasant, you know. You are nice and comfortable in bed. It is irritating to be woken up. That’s the reason the wise guru will not attempt to wake people up. I hope I’m going to be wise here and make no attempt whatsoever to wake you up if you are asleep. It is really none of my business, even though I say to you at times, "Wake up!" My business is to do my thing, to dance my dance. If you profit from it fine; if you don’t, too bad! As the Arabs say, "The nature of rain is the same, but it makes thorns grow in the marshes and flowers in the gardens."
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:)
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I think your thinking of Yahweh Vince.
Lead by the USA Preachers there is a great deal of money to be made from Religion. I just love the movie Elmer Gantry - (probably more so since it had Jean Simmons starring opposite Burt Lancaster. I fell in love with her at a young age.) But it just shows what a good speaker with charisma can achieve! Not many want to go into politics as there is not enough money there for them! ::)
Many Church leaders around the World have followed the American style where billions of hidden Dollars are taken in from people taken in every year by the preachers. Hidden because in the USA no Religious Organisation has to declare the income. I have seen African Churches following suit with Pastors thinking they are above the law.
Maybe that is why I like the Chinese Church here. No money is asked by anyone, there is no collection taken before during or after the service. No one has ever asked for money. Here we get gifts not give them Christmas, Easter, Mothers Day and Fathers Day and of course Chinese New Year.
I can understand persons concerns both for and against religion. I say a person must believe in something even if it is just themself.
Willy
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People want to believe but they are not careful and are afraid to ask a question. They may be accused of blaspheme. Be afraid, be very afraid, this is what they (religions) thrive on. In all what I am trying to bring out is religion is Man made. What it is suppose to do is bring inner peace, make you smile and be happy. To open your eyes to the beauty of life around you. What is done is the opposite. They fool, threaten and have killed others. They pull at your faith stings to get your money, time and work for them to bring in more. Be their herd and follow like sheep... to slaughter. Thanks anyway, I'll take my own path.
As for the name... I didn't want to write it thinking some might freak out?
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I am an atheist. I am not against religion. I am not against guns. Either in the wrong hands can and have done great damage. If either is used to exploit and move a political agenda, then yes religion and guns have been used badly.
Although after all is said and done, I know I can be wrong and that there is a divine presence - it's just that I have not precieved it yet.
Going with that last thought; Vince, man did not create god (if there is one); man created his idea of what GOD is to fit into his spiritual perspective. Religion, like scientific thesis, is put into place to answer some question or fill some need, usually to answer WHY. We doin't like not knowing WHY, and thus we try to answer it.
The one bad thing of being so dogmatic, which many religions need to be, is that to find that being wrong, means the death of that religion and the feeling of being lost for the disciple. Most people do not wish to be adrift unkowing, so even a lie to give direction is better then having no Northern star. I am lost but now am found.
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Religion, like scientific thesis, is put into place to answer some question or fill some need, usually to answer WHY.
Not quite true Rhon....In science a Thesis is put together to provide unequivocable proof of a Theory, based on fact, research, analysis and conclusion.
In religion there is not a single shred of evidence beyond the random happenings of statistical chance, that any of it has any basis in fact.
I am also an Aetheist (as I'm sure you know ;D ;D ;D) and I AM against religion...or rather I am against the concept of a belief system that is based on zero logic, sense or reality and can somehow get away with being the driver of most of the woes that the human race has suffered for at least the last 10,000 years.
I can fully understand the worship of natural elements such as Sun, Moon, Lightning etc as a pagan response to lack of knowlege, because these elements really did influence lives one way or another. But the way that modern religion has morphed into something of a pervasive, ruthless, money grabbing hypocracy gets my blood pressure up every time !!!
I am reminded of a tale that should maybe in the Joke Thread, but I am already in enough trouble over religion that a bit more wont be noticed:
An engaged couple were unfortunately killed in a road accident on the way to their wedding...
On arrival at the pearly gates, they asked St. Peter if it would be possible to get married in Heaven....St P said he though it would be OK and off he went...
Some 3 weeks later he re-appeared and said.."Ok lets get you two married now"......
The Man having had 3 weeks to think things over asked St P. if he could just find a Lawyer because he felt he should have a pre-nup drawn up before his marriage.
St P exploded and shouted...
" If it took me 3 bloody weeks to find a Priest in here...how long do you think it will take to find a Lawyer !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
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As for the name... I didn't want to write it thinking some might freak out?
Well it is writing on the title of many songs made by so called dedicated Christians.
Willy
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Why should anyone be against religion of any creed or colour or denomination.?
Personally I do not believe that there is a place waiting for me after my time here comes to a final end. But I am glad that there is religion that gives so many peace of mind.
Ok so you get radicals in every religion but on the whole they are normal people. If their converts are willing to throw money at them then that is the choice of the converts. The vast majority are not brain washed into giving. But what is the difference between supporting a cause that gives one peace of mind against say a charity supporting animals. Giving to either makes one feel good I suppose and that includes the time the UK population supported a Charity organised by the biggest pedophile predator to have ever graced not just UK TV screen but the UK as a whole past and present.
One thought that is in many Christian mind is that they would rather live a life as is there is a God and then find there is not than to live a life as if there is no God and then find there is one!
But then people throw their money at all sorts of people and organisations that have been promoted by advertising and public relation agencies.
There will always be people ready to earn a living from religion, there always have been and always will be. Me included! ::)
Should we allow people to be taken in or not depending on their beliefs - of course that is a persons choice.
Willy
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:)
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"Marvelous Techniques of the Old Cat"
There once was a fine swordsman named Shoken.
His home was plagued by a huge rat who roamed around freely, even during the day. Shoken's house cat was no match for the rat and fled in terror after being severely bitten. Shoken acquired several tough local polecats to combat the rat in a group. They were released in the house, and went for the rat, who crouched in a corner of a room waiting for them to come. The rat lashed out ferociously at one cat after the other and drove them all off. Angered by the abject failure of all the cats, the master decided to dispatch the rat with his sword. Despite his skill as a swordsman, he could not strike the rat- the animal leaped great distances through the air, moved like lightning, and boldly lept right over the top of the swordsman's head.
Shoken gave up in exasperation and decided to seek the aid of the Amazing Old Cat from a nearby village. When the owner brought the Old Cat over to Shoken's house, Shoken was surprised at how ordinary and aged the cat appeared. However, he said, "Let's give it a try", and released the cat into the room where the rat was ensconced. As soon as it saw the cat approach, the rat froze. The cat nonchalantly walked over, seized the rat by the neck, carried it out of the room, and turned it over to Shoken.
That night, the other cats gathered and gave the Old Cat the seat of honor. They said to him, "We are all well known for our skill in rat catching, able to handle even weasels and otters, and our nails are razor sharp. However, there was nothing we could do against that rat. How is it that you were able to overcome that giant rat? Please impart to us the secrets of your art."
The Old Cat laughed and said, "Well, you are all still young and although you have experience in fighting with rats you still have a lot to learn. Before I begin, though, tell me about your training."
A black cat came forward and said, "I was raised in a family that specialized in training cats. I was taught how to leap over a seven foot screen, how to squeeze into tiny holes, and all kinds of acrobatic tricks. I was an expert at feigning sleep and then striking out as soon as a rat came near. Rats could not escape me. I could catch them even as they fled across ceiling beams. I was never defeated until I met that old rat." The Old Cat said, "Your training has centered exclusively on technique. All you think about is catching the rat. The old masters taught patterns and movements to enable us to develop good technique. And even the simplest technique contains profound principles. You focus on external technique too much. This causes you to doubt the traditions of the masters and to devise new tricks. However, if you rely on technique too much, sooner or later you will come to an impasse because physical technique has a limit. Ponder this well."
Next the tiger cat stepped forward and said: "I think that the development of ki(life force) is most important. I have polished my ki for many years, and my spirit is very strong, filling heaven and earth. I could face down my opponents with overwhelming ki and defeat them from the start. I could immediately respond to any stimulus, any movement. I did not need to think; techniques naturally arose. I could freeze a rat running across a beam and make it drop to the floor. That old rat, though, came without a form. and left not a trace. I was stymied."
The Old Cat replied, "The ki power you use is still a function of your own mind, and thus too self-centered. It is based entirely on your own level of self-confidence. As long as you remain conscious of your ki power and use it mentally to suppress an opponent, you will create resistance. And you will be sure to meet an opponent whose ki power is even stronger than yours. You may think that your ki power fills the universe in the same manner as the kozen no ki(universal energy) employed by the Chinese sage Mencius, but it does not. In the case of Mencius, ki is bright and vigorous. His use of ki power is like a great river; your use of ki power is like a flash flood. We all know the proverb 'A biting cat gets bitten by the rat.' When a rat is cornered it forgets life, forgets desires, forgets winning and losing, forgets body and mind. That force is as strong as steel, and cannot be vanquished merely by ki power."
Next, an older grey cat advanced quietly and said, "As you have stated, that type of ki power can be very strong but still retains a form, however slight, that can be used against you. As for me, for many years now I have been polishing my heart. I do not rely on ki power, I never harbor thoughts of fighting with an opponent, and always try to harmonize myself to any attack. When an opponent is strong, I blend and follow his movements. My technique is like that of a curtain capturing and dropping to the floor a stone thrown against it. Until now, even the strongest rat could find no place to attack me. That rat, though, was amazing-ki power and harmonizing power had no effect on it."
The Old Cat answered, "Your harmonizing power is not the harmonizing power of nature. It is a projection of your own mind and thus limited. Any trace of conscious thought destroys your equilibrium, and a sharp opponent will seize on that opening in an instant. Thought obstructs nature and hinders function. Do not think, do not act; follow the movements of nature, and self will disappear. Without a self, there will be no one to oppose you in Heaven and Earth." "It is not my intent to dismiss all of your hard training as worthless. 'The Way has many vessels.' Techniques contain universal principles. Ki power makes the body function and vivifies the cosmos. Harmonizing power enables one to blend naturally with any attacking force, even rocks, without being broken. As soon as there is the slightest conscious thought, however, contrivance and willfulness appear, and that separates you from the natural Way. You see yourself and others as seperate entities, as opponents.
If you asked me what technique I employ, the answer is mushin (no-mind). Mushin is to act in accordance with nature, nothing else. The Way has no limits, so do not think of this talk of mine as the ultimate secret.
Long ago, there was a cat in my neighborhood who seemed to do nothing but nap all day. That cat looked spiritless, almost like a cat made out of wood. No one ever saw it catch a rat, yet wherever it was and wherever it went, no rat dared to appear. I once visited the cat and asked it to explain the reason. I asked four times for an answer but it remained silent. It was not that the cat did not want to answer but rather that it did not know how to answer. As the old saying goes, 'Those who know, do not speak; those who speak, do not know.' That cat forgot about itself, forgot about objects, and dwelled in a state of purposelessness. That cat actualized the divine martial virtue of 'non-killing'. I am still no match for that cat.
Shoken, who had been eavesdropping on this dreamlike conversation, suddenly could not contain himself and burst into the room. "I have been training in swordsmanship for many years but I have yet to penetrate its essence. Tonight I have learned about many different kinds of training and learned much about my own Way of the Sword. Please teach me your innermost secrets."
The Old Cat replied: "That I cannot do. I am just an animal that catches rats for food. What do I know about human affairs? I have this to say, though. Swordsmanship is not solely a matter of attaining victory over an opponent. At a critical juncture it is the art of illuminating life and death. Samurai need to foster this attitude of mind and discipline themselves in that spirit. Penetrate the principle of life and death, first of all, and maintain that spirit. Then there will be no doubts, no distracting thoughts, no calculation, no deliberation. Your spirit will remain calm and peaceful, unobstructed, freely responding to any contingency.
Conversely, if there is the slightest object in your mind, there will be a self, there will be an enemy, there will be opposition, there will be a loss of freedom. You will enter the darkness of death and lose the spiritual brightness. How can you face an opponent in such a state? Even if you win, it is a shallow victory, and not true swordsmanship. Purposelessness is not a vacant state. It is formless, harboring no objects. If something is harbored there, ki power gathers around it. Ki power is thus stifled and movement becomes stagnant, unbalanced, and uncontrolled. What I call 'purposelessness' harbors nothing, relies on nothing, has no enemy, has no self; it responds to everything naturally and leaves not a trace. The 'I Ching' states, 'Without thought, without doing, naturally settled, the Way activates itself throughout the universe.' Swordsmen who understand this principle are close to the way."
Shoken asked, "What is meant by 'There is no enemy, there is no self'?" The Old Cat replied, "Because there is a self, there is an enemy. If there is no self, there is no enemy. 'Enemy' is that which is in opposition. The type of opposition that appears external in yin and yang, fire and water. Every object with form has its opposite. When mind has no form, there is nothing to oppose it. When there is no opposition, there is nothing to fight against. This is called 'no enemy, no self'. When self and objects are both forgotten, there is a natural state of nonactivity, of no trouble, of oneness. The enemy's form is gone, and you know nothing. This is not the same as being unaware; it means no calculating thought, and immediate natural response. This mind is unobstructed and free, allowing the world to become your domain. Abstractions such as 'this', 'that', 'like', and 'dislike' disappear. 'Pleasure and pain, gain and loss' are similar creations of your mind. All heaven and earth is not to be sought outside of one's own mind. An ancient worthy once said, 'A single speck of dust in the eye can make the three worlds look very narrow; liberate your mind and life without obstruction!' (*) When a speck of dust enters the eye it can barely be kept open, and it is difficult to see anything. When something that is bright by nature is contaminated by a foreign object, it loses its clarity. The same holds true for the mind.
Another ancient said, 'Surrounded by myriad foes, your body may be smashed to pieces, but your mind is yours and can never be vanquished.' Confucius said, 'Even the meanest human being cannot be deprived of his or her will.' When you are deluded, your own mind becomes your enemy. I would like to stop talking here. It is now up to you yourselves. A master can transmit techniques to illuminate the principles behind them, but no more. The truth has to be realized individually. This is self-attainment. It is called 'mind to mind transmission', and 'a separate transmission outside the texts.' While the teaching does not depend on tradition, it utilizes tradition, but still a master cannot impart everything. This is not limited to the study of Zen. From the spiritual training methods of the ancient sages to the masterpieces created by artists, all were based on self-attainment and instantaneous mind-to-mind transmission- a teaching outside the texts. The texts teach what you have within and assist you in obtaining it on your own and as your own.
A master does not really give you anything. It is easy to talk, and easy to listen, but difficult to perceive these things and make them truly your own. This is called kensho (seeing into one's nature) and satori (enlightenment). Satori is to awaken from the dream of illusion. It is the same as keen awareness.
from "Inaka Soshi" (The Country Taoist), written in 1727 by Issai Chozan. translated and published in 'Budo Secrets' by John Stevens
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There will always be people ready to earn a living from religion, there always have been and always will be. Me included! ::)
Willy
Better get your robes and cassock ready Willy
The music industry, at least in the UK, is looking poorly
:-)
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David E: There is cosmic justice :)
A minister dies and is waiting at the Pearly Gates.
Ahead of him is a guy who's dressed in sunglasses, a loud shirt, a leather jacket, and jeans.
Saint Peter addresses this guy and says, "Who are you, so that I may know whether or
not to admit you to the Kingdom of Heaven?"
The guy replies, "I'm Joe Cohen, taxi driver, of Noo Yawk City."
Saint Peter consults his list. He smiles and says to the taxi driver,
"Take this silken robe and golden staff and enter the Kingdom of Heaven."
The taxi driver goes into Heaven with his robe and staff.
Then it's the minister's turn.
Saint Peter says, "Who are you, so that I may know whether or
not to admit you to the Kingdom of Heaven?"
The Minister stands erect and booms out,
"I am Joseph Snow, pastor of Saint Mary's church for the last 43 years."
Saint Peter consults his list and says to the minister,
"Take this cotton robe and wooden staff and enter the Kingdom of Heaven."
"Just a minute," says the minister. "That man was a scruffy taxi driver and he
gets a silken robe and golden staff.
I only get a wooden staff and a cotton robe How can this be?"
"Up here, we work by results," says Saint Peter.
"While you preached, people slept; while he drove, people prayed."
-
The definition of a Puritan:
One who spends his life worrying that somewhere, somehow, someone might be enjoying themselves
------------
Three couples, an elderly couple, a middle-aged couple and a young newlywed couple wanted to join a (fundamentalist) church.
The pastor said, "We have special requirements for new parishioners.
You must show your willingness to defeat the evils of the flesh by abstaining from having sex for two weeks."
The couples agreed and came back at the end of two weeks.
The pastor went to the elderly couple and asked, "Were you able to abstain from sex for the two weeks?"
The old man replied, "No problem at all, Pastor."
"Congratulations! Welcome to the church!" said the pastor.
The pastor went to the middle-aged couple and asked, "Well, were you able to abstain from sex for the two weeks?"
The man replied, "The first week was not too bad. The second week I had to sleep on the couch for a couple of nights but, yes, we made it."
"Congratulations! Welcome to the church!" said the pastor.
The pastor then went to the newlywed couple and asked, "Well, were you able to abstain from sex for two weeks?"
"No Pastor, we were not able to go without sex for the two weeks," the young man replied sadly.
"What happened?" inquired the pastor.
"My wife was reaching for a can of paint on the top shelf and dropped it. When she bent over to pick it up, I was overcome with lust and took advantage of her right there and then."
"You understand, of course, this means you will not be welcome in our church," boomed the pastor.
"We know." said the young man dejectedly,
"We're not welcome at Mitre 10 anymore either."
-
A SERIOUS 12 STEP PROGRAM
1. We admitted that we were powerless over seriousness- that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. We came to believe that only by lightening up could we achieve a state of non-seriousness.
3. We made a decision to turn our constant self-criticism over to our sense of humor and
learn to lovingly and wholeheartedly laugh at ourselves.
4. We decided to give ourselves a break once in a while and chill out, instead of constantly doing searching and fearless moral inventories of ourselves.
5. We admitted to God, to ourselves and to any other human being thet would listen, that our wrongs were often in our heads.
6. We were entirely ready to accept that our characters were as good as anybody else's and possibly better than most .
7. We quit harping on our shortcomings.
8. We made a list of all the persons we though we had harmed and saw that they'd forgotten all the crap we'd blown out of proportion.
9. We quit making amends for breathing air and taking up a few square feet of the planet's surface.
10. We resigned ourselves to the fact that we were going to criticize ourselves at times, but would try to stick to our guns when we knew we were right.
11. We sought through prayer and meditation to calm down and realize we're not responsible for everything.
12. Having experienced immense relief from these steps, we would try to carry this message to other overly-serious people and to practice these
principles in all our affairs.
-
The Pope was at his morning devotions, when he was suddenly and unexpectedly interrupted by
his private secretary.
“ Your Holiness forgive me for interrupting” said the secretary, “but I thought the news too important to wait”.
“News” said the Pope “It had better be good news to warrant interruption to my devotions”.
“Well” said his secretary nervously, “there's Good News and some not so good news”.
The Pope looked up and said “Speak!”
“The Good News” said the secretary, “is that Jesus has returned to Earth as he promised -
He is to set up the Kingdom of Heaven on earth - and He is on the phone to explain your part in His plan to you.”.
“This is more than Good News” said the Pope,” This is what we have all been waiting for over the centuries - and it is happening now, in my own time.
How could anything be less than good news in the light of this, the Second Coming?? ”
The he paused and said "Not so good news??"
'Well' said the secretary, even more nervously,
'it’s just that He is ringing from Salt Lake City'.
-
I must have a warped sense of humour :)
========
It was a dark dark night.
A burglar, about his trade, broke into this house. It was pitch black inside and the burglar was afraid to turn on a light
because he might alert a neighbor. So he began throwing the silverware into his bag, when he thought he heard a voice say,
"Jesus is watching you."
Thinking he was just hearing things the burglar ignored it and returned to rifling through the house when he heard the voice again say,
"Jesus is watching you."
Now he was worried so he flicked on his torch and in the dim beam saw a parrot sitting on a perch over in the corner.
"Was that you talking", the burglar asked.
"Yes", replied the parrot.
"Well, is your name Jesus?", asked the burglar.
"No, my name is Dennis", replied the parrot.
"Dennis!", the burglar said "That's a silly name for a parrot."
"Well",the parrot replied, "its not nearly as silly as Jesus is for a rottweiler."
-
Just wait till Lance Armstrong takes up meditation ;)
======
MONK GLOATS OVER YOGA CHAMPIONSHIP
"I am the serenest!" he says
LHASA, TIBET - Employing the brash style that first brought him to prominence, Sri Dhananjai Bikram won the fifth annual International
Yogi Competition yesterday with a world-record point total of 873.6.
"I am the serenest!" Bikram shouted to the estimated crowd of 20,000 yoga fans, vigorously pumping his fists. "No one is serener than Sri
Dhananjai Bikram-I am the greatest monk of all time!"
Bikram averaged 1.89 breaths a minute during the two-hour competition, nearly .3 fewer than his nearest competitor, second-place finisher and
two-time champion Sri Salil "The Hammer" Gupta.
The heavily favored Gupta was upset after the loss. "I should be able to beat that guy with one lung tied," Gupta said. "I'm beside myself
right now, and I don't mean trans-bodily."
Bikram got off to a fast start at the Lhasa meet, which like most major competitions, is a six-event affair. In the first event, he
attained total consciousness (TC) in just 2 minutes, 34 seconds, and set the tone for the rest of the meet by repeatedly shouting, "I'm
blissful! You blissful?! I'm blissful!" to the other yogis.
Bikram, 33, burst onto the international yoga scene with a gold-mandala performance at the 1994 Bhutan Invitational. At that
competition he premiered his aggressive style, at one point in the flexibility event sticking his middle toes out at the other yogis.
While no prohibition exists against such behavior, according to Yoga League Commissioner Swami Prabhupada, such behavior is generally
considered "unBuddhalike."
"I don't care what the critics say," Bikram said. "Sri Bikram is just gonna go out there and do Sri Bikram's own yoga thing."
Before the Bhutan meet, Bikram had never placed better than fourth.
Many said he had forsaken rigorous training for the celebrity status accorded by his Bhutan win, endorsing Nike's new line of prayer mats
and supposedly dating the Hindu goddess Shakti. But his performance this week will regain for him the number one computer ranking and earn
him new respect, as well as for his coach Mahananda Vasti, the controversial guru some have called Bikram's "guru."
"My special training diet for Bikram of one super-charged, carbo-loaded grain of rice per day was essential to his win," Vasti
said.
The defeated Gupta denied that Bikram's taunting was a factor in his inability to attain TC. "I just wasn't myself today," Gupta commented.
"I wasn't any self today. I was an egoless particle of the universal no-soul."
In the second event, flexibility, Bikram maintained the lead by supporting himself on his index fingers for the entire 15 minutes
while touching the back of his skull to his lower spine. The feat was matched by Gupta, who first used the position at the 1990 Tokyo Zen-Off.
"That's my meditative position of spiritual ecstasy, not his," remarked Gupta. "He stole my thunder."
Bikram denied the charge, saying, "Gupta's been talking like that ever since he was a 3rd century Egyptian slave-owner."
Nevertheless, a strong showing by Gupta in the third event, the shotput, placed him within a lotus petal of the lead at the
competition's halfway point.
But event number four, the contemplation of unanswerable riddles known as koans, proved the key to victory for Bikram.
The koan had long been thought the weak point of his spiritual arsenal, but his response to today's riddle-"Show me the face you had
before you were born "-was reportedly "extremely illuminative," according to Commissioner Prabhupada.
While koan answers are kept secret from the public for fear of exposing the uninitiated multitudes to the terror of universal truth,
insiders claim his answer had Prabhupada and the two other judges "highly enlightened."
With the event victory, Bikram built himself a nearly insurmountable lead, one he sustained through the yak-milk churn and breathing events
to come away with the upset victory.
-
:)
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Well from all the jokes and quips you have supplied then at least we can say that you have a great interest in Christianity David K!!!!
I have to say Ha Ha as my smileys have disappeared again today.
Willy
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Religion, like scientific thesis, is put into place to answer some question or fill some need, usually to answer WHY.
Not quite true Rhon....In science a Thesis is put together to provide unequivocable proof of a Theory, based on fact, research, analysis and conclusion.
In religion there is not a single shred of evidence beyond the random happenings of statistical chance, that any of it has any basis in fact.
I would say the basis of my statement is true. Usually in religion, as in science, & philosophical thought, it is the more inquisitive person that pauses and wonders. They take the time to try to figure out why and rationalise their thought process. Now I agree some religions and non religious ideas are inspired by spirits (bottled) or drug induced or some sort of extreme situation ie: spirit quest, illness, hallucinations, but aha moments can also come during normal periods of quiet. But usually it is the more intelligent shaman, priest, scientist that tries to answer WHY.
It seems the problem with religion, as you state it, and even science has followed this same faulty path, is when the quest to maintain the status quo supersedes the logic that things do not quite work out. I remember from one anthropology course I took that in the early days of measuring cranium capacities of different races, the measuring grain substance they used to stuff inside the skulls, could be crushed. The earlier studies showed that the Caucasians had on average a larger cranium. My teacher explained that since the scientists that were doing the research were white and believed in their innate superiority, he could see them squeezing to get as many grains into the skull for the whites and just do a general fill it to the brim for the other skulls. Science also follows this path of the originator of a thesis not wanting to be wrong so he fudges the results.
And why the quest to maintain the status quo? I would say that those in power have a chance to lose a great deal of influence, resources, and face. For scientist, they could lose their research grants, for priest, their livelyhood. And the further up the totem pole, the greater the fall, be it money, status, or power.
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The vast majority are not brain washed into giving. Willy
You have got to be kidding !!!!!!!!!!!!!!....pay us money and ease your path to "Heaven".........if thats not brainwashing, I dont know what is !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Well from all the jokes and quips you have supplied then at least we can say that you have a great interest in Christianity David K!!!!
Willy
I'd like to feel I can offend serious devotees of all religions equally :)
The reason that I used the name of the founder of the Christian religion in the Rottweiler post
was that if I had used the name of the founder of another Aramaic religion I would likely have a Fatwa
issued agin me by now :(
In the name of God, of course.
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Sorry Rhon, I cant agree with your premise that enlightened Shamans/Priests primarily ask the WHY question.....it is counter to the dogma that sustains the myth that "He" made it so. In fact to ask WHY from a religious perspective is in fact a blasphemy....deliberately structured as such to prevent the WHY question. Arguably there have been many Priests who have wondered about the WHY, especially in the light of scientific method constantly questioning the WHY issues and over time constantly updating and refreshing ideas and concepts that could not stand the test of reality and proof...
I refer here to some of the "science" that could not stand the test of time and subsequently got revised and updated...such issues as:
* The Earth is flat
* The Earth is the centre of all things and the Sun and the Planets revolve around it.
* The Earth is supported in the heavens on the back of a giant turtle
* Evolution actually happened as a natural phenomena, we were not created out of somebody's rib.
* The Earth is not 6500 years old.
Etc etc etc.
Subsequent leaps in knowlege gradually debunked all these myths and replaced them with truth.
Contrast this with religious dogma where the myths are the only leg on which the whole belief system stands...defying the test of proof on the pain of eternal dammnation.
Certainly, in scientific evaluations, there have been some massive blunders in interpretation...as you say some of which were deliberately falsified to suit a particular set of circumstances...most of the early attempts to answer the WHY question were ill-informed, dangerous and unsafe...but eventually these gave way to the truth.
Look where we are today on the issue of Global Warming...............this expression (which was meaningless anyway) has given way to "climate change" which is a brilliant generic statement that gives Politicians and Greenies two bob each way !!!
The science is way behind the emotion....but it WILL catch up and maybe will or will not endorse the premise.
I cant see any evidence that religion has ever applied the reality test and got to grips with updating the model....how could it ?? To do so would bring the whole thing down in rubble....it can only survive by totally AVOIDING the WHY question.....it is the nature of the beast.
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The vast majority are not brain washed into giving. Willy
You have got to be kidding !!!!!!!!!!!!!!....pay us money and ease your path to "Heaven".........if thats not brainwashing, I dont know what is !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey David E,
You have a lovely Chinese wife; she gives to you; you give to her; there is harmony between you
Let me hypothesise in that instant you experience something beyond mere molecular arrangements...
If that be true, there is no valid reason to limit the experience giving brings to her body, or yours..
It is possible that the folks in Willys church are expressing that same wish to give, just in a different form
:)
But just as a caveat, see below :)
-
Maybe that is why I like the Chinese Church here. No money is asked by anyone, there is no collection taken before during or after the service. No one has ever asked for money. Here we get gifts not give them Christmas, Easter, Mothers Day and Fathers Day and of course Chinese New Year.
Willy
I'm on a roll here Willy, so I'd better keep going while I have the inclination...... ;D ;D ;D
You, of all people should have a greater knowlege and insight into the Chinese mind, and the Chinese way of looking at things......
The modern Chinese person who has embraced Western Religion is just exhibiting the shrewd, devious and cunning mindset that makes the Chinese mind unique, I am sure that they (in their inimitable way) regard Western Religion as maybe, just maybe might hold the key for them to get ahead next time round. So they give it a go....just in case and happily smile and participate in all the pomp and ceremony....and bull sh ***t
But...but...but....just pass a collection plate around at the service, or just ask them for a regular tithe to the Church and you would be killed in the stampede to get out of the door !!!!!!!!!!
Or am I being too cynical....I think not....
-
Personally I do not believe that there is a place waiting for me after my time here comes to a final end.
Willy
Rumour has it that Willy was around 2000 years ago...
For proof see below :)
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Hey David E,
You have a lovely Chinese wife; she gives to you; you give to her; there is harmony between you
Let me hypothesise in that instant you experience something beyond mere molecular arrangements...
If that be true, there is no valid reason to limit the experience giving brings to her body, or yours..
It is possible that the folks in Willys church are expressing that same wish to give, just in a different form
:)
Not sure 'bout that.....My wife and I are like 2 ships that "pass in the night"...by some random chance we met, we share a bond that is possibly pheromonal, possibly situational...but not all consuming...I am not built that way. We exist on mutual respect, tolerance and goodwill to each other. We ARE both a collection of molecules...cant avoid that. For this moment in time all is good and expected to continue as such.
I never look at our marriage as "give" or even "take"...it just IS and we work to make it so. I dont know if we have any limits, it's early days, but we have the intent and we have the Chemistry, so we have got more than most !!!
I cannot predict the future, but I know in the Laws of Statistical Chance it is written somewhere....but I dont want to know the answer, the juorney is much more interesting than the destination............
-
Usually in religion, as in science, & philosophical thought, it is the more inquisitive person that pauses and wonders.
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly
what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly
disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.
There is another theory which states that this has already happened.
-
[Not sure 'bout that.....My wife and I are like 2 ships that "pass in the night"...by some random chance we met, we share a bond that is possibly pheromonal, possibly situational...
I never look at our marriage as "give" or even "take"...it just IS and we work to make it so.
Hint:
The Soul is greater than the Hum of its parts :)
-
Whew!!!!!! I've been reading. I wouldn't know where to begin.
I'll mention a couple of things. The not writing the word God thing is a Jewish tradition not based on any Biblical precept. Someone on www.jewfaq.org (http://www.jewfaq.org) gives the best explanation I've seen so I will quote it, "Judaism does not prohibit writing the Name of God per se; it prohibits only erasing or defacing the Name of God. However, observant Jews avoid writing any name of God casually because of the risk that the written name might later be defaced, obliterated or destroyed accidentally or by one who does not know better."
There is no history of not writing the name of Jesus and would not be any. Remember the Jews did not believe Jesus was the Son of God.
On the subject of Evangelical Christians one must realize that just because someone claims to be a Christian doesn't really mean that they are one. You can find this in all walks of life. Take out the word Christian and plug in an appropriate word and the truth of that statement still stands.
Also, one must consider the different maturity levels of Christianity just like you would with mankind. Everyone is in a different level of walk with God based on their knowledge and maturity. As with life some mature and gain knowledge and some do not.
Most of the people that give Christianity a bad name are immature and uneducated in their relationship with God. You can find that to be true with pastors too. But it seems that all people hear about are the immature and uneducated. Those who mature and study the scriptures quite often go unnoticed.
In today's society it is popular to bash Christians and Christianity and I suppose that is what is going on somewhat here on this thread. But keep in mind that you don't see any of the Christians on this site bashing atheist or agnostic or any other belief system.
Just remember that most Christian are good decent people and no we aren't kept in line by fear.
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Just remember that most Christian are good decent people and no we aren't kept in line by fear.
Ahem...... see below
-
The not writing the word God thing is a Jewish tradition not based on any Biblical precept.
As I understand it the rationale is this:
The word God arises from a concept, and that concept is separate from the actuality of the ONE all embracing Jewish God, and therefor is an attack on the unity of that Gods kingdom..
Bizzare Eh :-)
But its the same rationale behind not allowing publication of images of Mohammed...
This originally arose from a wish not to confuse the messenger of God with the actuality of God..or so my Muslim friends tell me
But we can see from the worldwide reactions to the publication of danish cartoons of the prophet just where that line of thinking leads :(
I'll refrain (just) from looking at the connection between Jewish tradition and examples of its practical application, such as the 1999 Operation Cast Lead in Gaza
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Quote from shaun : [Most of the people that give Christianity a bad name are immature and uneducated in their relationship with God. You can find that to be true with pastors too. But it seems that all people hear about are the immature and uneducated. Those who mature and study the scriptures quite often go unnoticed.
In today's society it is popular to bash Christians and Christianity and I suppose that is what is going on somewhat here on this thread. But keep in mind that you don't see any of the Christians on this site bashing atheist or agnostic or any other belief system.
Just remember that most Christian are good decent people and no we aren't kept in line by fear.] Well said Shaun.....
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Quote from shaun : [Most of the people that give Christianity a bad name are immature and uneducated in their relationship with God. You can find that to be true with pastors too. But it seems that all people hear about are the immature and uneducated. Those who mature and study the scriptures quite often go unnoticed.
In today's society it is popular to bash Christians and Christianity and I suppose that is what is going on somewhat here on this thread. But keep in mind that you don't see any of the Christians on this site bashing atheist or agnostic or any other belief system.
Just remember that most Christian are good decent people and no we aren't kept in line by fear.] Well said Shaun.....
Why on Earth would you consider the musings in this thread of late to be in the vein of Christian and/or Christianity bashing. That is waaaay off the mark.
What is happening from my perspective is merely proselytising for my particular brand of belief system....I'm not bashing anyone. I dont know whether or not most Christians are good and decent people...you have no definitive statistics to prove that point....only opinion and hearsay (the major platform of ANY organised religion). If also your definition of maturity is based on the study of the scriptures, how do you rationalise maturity with irrevocable belief from reading a mythical novel..........
So dont get so touchy...enter the debate and start your own opinion drive or just listen......dont just wait for Shaun to jump in (as I knew he would ;D ;D ;D) and then bleat in agreement !!!!!!!!!!!
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Why on Earth would you consider the musings in this thread of late to be in the vein of Christian and/or Christianity bashing. That is waaaay off the mark.
I agree.. We should be free to hoist any religion by its own petard :) :)
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Dr. Laura Schlesinger, an Orthodox Jew, said on her radio show that homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance.
It elicited the following response
Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can.
When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination …. End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God’s Laws and how to follow them.
1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness – Lev15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord – Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this? Are there ‘degrees’ of abomination?
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I’m confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.
Your adoring fan Jack
------------------------
So there:
I've been able to offend Canadians, Orthodox Jews and Gays all in one post, with narry a Christian in sight :) :)
Goodness, this thread is starting to show signs of life ;D ;D ;D
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Sorry Rhon, I cant agree with your premise that enlightened Shamans/Priests primarily ask the WHY question.....it is counter to the dogma that sustains the myth that "He" made it so.
Contrast this with religious dogma where the myths are the only leg on which the whole belief system stands...defying the test of proof on the pain of eternal dammnation.
.....it is the nature of the beast.
Why the Sacred Cow?
History of the "Sacred" Cow
In ancient India, oxen and bulls were sacrificed to the gods and their meat was eaten. But even then the slaughter of milk-producing cows was prohibited. Verses of the Rigveda refer to the cow as Devi (goddess), identified with Aditi (mother of the gods) herself.
Even when meat-eating was permitted, the ancient Vedic scriptures encouraged vegetarianism. One scripture says, "There is no sin in eating meat... but abstention brings great rewards." (The Laws of Manu, V/56)
Later, in the spiritually fertile period that produced Jainism and Buddhism, Hindus stopped eating beef. This was mostly like for practical reasons as well as spiritual. It was expensive to slaughter an animal for religious rituals or for a guest, and the cow provided an abundance of important products, including milk, browned butter for lamps, and fuel from dried dung.
Some scholars believe the tradition came to Hinduism through the influence of strictly vegetarian Jainism. But the cow continued to be especially revered and protected among the animals of India.
By the early centuries AD, the cow was designated as the appropriate gift to the brahmans (high-caste priests) and it was soon said that to kill a cow is equal to killing a brahman. The importance of the pastoral element in the Krishna stories, particularly from the 10th century onward, further reinforced the sanctity of the cow.
In another anthropology class we discussed the Sacred cow and an other reason put forward was that during planting season the ground was very hard to till in India, and that the cow, with its great strength could be used to plow the field. If the cow had been eaten during famine time, then it would not be around when planting could be attempted. In order to insure that the less forethinking and planning individuals did not kill the cow because of hunger, it had to be revered as a religious symbol.
I agree that religion is slow to change and evolve, but many practises had a certain principal that allowed society to proceed. To an average farmer in a land lock environment, thinking the earth is flat does not impede his ability to survive, but ask that of a sailor that needs to navigate using the heavens, ...... well need necessitates advancement of knowledge.
Besides - I play Civilization IV - and believe me religion has an interesting twist in this game.
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Oh dear. Another hornets nest been stirred up!!!! Wonder how this started!!!! (No smileys available to me again)
Pity that most of the words are too big for me. Wo ting bu dong! My favourite phrase here. ha ha
A lively debate from both sides is what I like to see. Well it helps pass a little time!!!
I wonder why atheists are more outspoken and have more knowledge about something they do not believe it than a Christian who does believe? Could they have been searching for the truth!!!!!!!!!!!!! Or is a little knowledge a dangerous thing?
Shall we move onto Buddism the only religion not to have started a war in their own name! I will waited to be torn to pieces on that one as well.
Come to think of it then neither has the new China.
Willy
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I wonder why atheists are more outspoken and have more knowledge about something they do not believe it than a Christian who does believe? Could they have been searching for the truth!!!!!!!!!!!!! Or is a little knowledge a dangerous thing?
Willy
Knowledge about something does not need the prerequisite of believing it. And Willy why, when about religion is it only Christians that you are using. The word should have been Believer. Then the statement could be used to ask why does a capitalist not believe in Communism but knows more about it then a communist? Thankfully Deng Xiaoping knew a little capitalism was a good thing for China's economy.
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Just remember that most Christian are good decent people and no we aren't kept in line by fear.
I thought about this statement a bit Shaun, and I can understand it. As analogy, a person could get word from his doctor that he should exercise, otherwise he is at greater risk for a heart attack. Maybe fear of an early death drives the person to start exercising, but soon the person might grow to like his new life style change. I hear many religious people say that they enjoy their spiritual journey in a shared belief, so maybe for them, religion is an exercise program for the spirit.
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I wonder why atheists are more outspoken and have more knowledge about something they do not believe it than a Christian who does believe? Could they have been searching for the truth!!!!!!!!!!!!! Or is a little knowledge a dangerous thing?
Willy
Knowledge about something does not need the prerequisite of believing it. And Willy why, when about religion is it only Christians that you are using. The word should have been Believer. Then the statement could be used to ask why does a capitalist not believe in Communism but knows more about it then a communist? Thankfully Deng Xiaoping knew a little capitalism was a good thing for China's economy.
When I moved the present furore to this thread I thought I was talking about religion not just Christianity. But can a non believer be a Christian? I have never said I am 'a born again christian', a requisite they tell me to achieve an afterlife because I do not believe that there is one.
If I remember I started this current round by suggesting that I was probably a humanist, a person that believes in Christian values but does not enbrace the whole concept of Christianity.
Christianity has personally been good for me.
Willy
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David E! do you believe the bible a mythical novel?
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David E! do you believe the bible a mythical novel?
Absolutely..........it is a collection of anecdotal stories assembled over the Centuries and has been oft repeated and translated. It has no more basis in facts than Aboriginal rock carvings, Viking runes or a Dickens story....
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As I am sure you will all guess....I am stuck at home with a foot problem (cant walk for 10 days while the operation heals)...so I am taking the opportunity to excercise my debating skills ;D ;D ;D
I was musing on the statement that "you dont get Christians bad mouthing Aetheists or Agnostics" and I came to this conclusion....
They dont need to...because the very definition of an Aetheist puts them outside of the proper "rules" of Christianity and thus automatically condems them to eternal dammnation. Therefore by automated response, the Christian dogma has already bad mouthed us....we are condemmed by this dogma to be evil, you can simply ride this dogma and by association we are all bad !!!.
BTW Willy...If we want to enter vigorous debate with anyone on any subject, we have a responsibility to understand (or at least attempt to understand) all aspects and all points of view within the debate criteria. Then we dont get into the "because I said so or God said so" end games which so often accompany debates of a religious nature. As a committed individual, I must be prepared to properly and factually defend my position before I have any rights to comment on anybody elses'. I can only pass comment on your views compared to mine if I try very hard to know and understand what and how your views are.
Believe me, as an Aetheist I get more often verballed and abused than any Christian does and simply because of the word "Aetheist" being seen akin to Hitler or Ghengis Khan or Jack the Ripper, evokes very un-Christian responses from so-called Christian people. So dont think for one moment that it is only Christians (or believers) that get called upon to justify their position.
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David E! do you believe the bible a mythical novel?
Absolutely..........it is a collection of anecdotal stories assembled over the Centuries and has been oft repeated and translated. It has no more basis in facts than Aboriginal rock carvings, Viking runes or a Dickens story....
Well at least we can say that you have not put your foot in it today. Hope it gets well soon and does not cause you too many problems.
The problem is that no one has ever invented a time machine and probably never will in the future so we will never know for sure. But if we did would we believe those who travelled on it. Of course some would but most would not.
My own opinion on the Bible is that the stories were taken from one to another by word of mouth over the years - (ever played Chinese Whispers the words whispered at the start change considerably before they reach the end of the line). Committed Christians will tell you that the words in the Bible were selected by God and put into the mind of the first person who printed it a few hundred years ago. With all modern techniques available today man still cannot agree just what the writings say. So how could anyone translate the writing several hundred years ago when education was lacking for all.
So I have to agree with David E on this.
Are the stories taken from real life or where they written to have a meaning. Shakespeare, Hans Christian Anderson and the brothers Grimm and others wrote things wit a meaning behind them.
Are they just stories or real life. That is the difference as to what you believe or not.
Do you believe that we evolved from creatures in the sea over millions of years or was we suddenly made in the 'Image of God'? What is the image of God was he neanderthal like, or did he have the looks of an African, Chinese, Arab (but definately not European as acccording to all the experts we are just mutants of the original people).
I am sure others will have a theory on this.
But whatever it is it will not prevent me living the life I do in the manner I do.
Willy
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David E! do you believe the bible a mythical novel?
There is clear evidence that it is not the work of an Infallible God :)
Try reading "The Bible Unearthed" by archaeologists Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman
They state "The historical saga contained in the Bible -- from Abraham's encounter with God and his journey to Canaan, to Moses' deliverance of the children of Israel from bondage, to the rise and fall of the kingdoms of Israel and Judah --was not a miraculous revelation, but a brilliant product of the human imagination."
It seems that around 630 to 600 BCE, in the court in Jerusalem, a national epic was compiled as a propaganda tool, to unite and energize the population with tales of past glories. This epic was woven together partly from oral traditions that may have preserved some dim memory of actual persons or events, but because it was written hundreds of years after the times it purports to chronicle, and also because it addressed issues current at the time of writing, there are telltale anachronisms and inconsistencies with the findings of archaeology.
Among the problems:
1: According to the Biblical chronology, Abraham and the patriarchs of Genesis were active roughly 2000 BCE. The stories make repeated mention of camel caravans. However, archaeology has shown that camels were not domesticated until much later; camel caravans were no earlier than 1000 BCE.
2: There is no evidence for the Exodus as the Bible describes it. The Bible does not give an exact date for the Exodus, nor refer to the pharaoh of the time by name. There is a stele of Pharaoh Merneptah mentions a people named Israel living in Canaan by 1200 BCE, so the Exodus should have occurred some time before that. However, there is no Egyptian documentation of any large group of slaves of any ethnicity leaving Egypt during a likely time frame. The population of Egypt was not over 5 million at the time, and it is out of the question that nearly 1 million people could leave without some kind of record or evidence.
3: There is no evidence for a swift, decisive military conquest of Canaan by Israelites by 1200 BC. And it does seem implausible that a ragtag group of slaves, however numerous, could have managed a well coordinated attack on an entire region after 40 years of wandering in the desert.
4: According to the bible, King David and his son Solomon reigned over a large territory, from Mesopotamia to Egypt, and had the wealth to build impressive temples and palaces. This monarchy would have had to have ruled in the range of 1000 to 900 BCE or so. Yet archaeologists have not found any monumental architecture at all dating to this time in Judah. Apparently Jerusalem was a rather small village at the time.
If you have further questions, try the attachment :)
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Well have to get my 2 cents in. I have no problem with Buddism. It is what it is.
and Willy hit on the right subject "ever played Chinese Whispers" here we called it telephone and they had other names for it but it's all the same. This is how the bible was written from stories centuries old. No offense to the jews or anyone else but they are good story tellers much like the Brits and Irish. ;)
But I have to tell of this afternoon. Two young women 17-18yo knock on my door. These religious "people" come to the neighborhood weekly (usually the weekend) and they asked if I wanted them to say a prayer for me and my home? I tried to talk them out of it but didn't have it in me to be a bastard (like I do to the adults) and tell them off. So they said their prayer and asked if I would come to their church to be baptized? Very insistent. Since I had no idea what church they meant (we have them by the dozen here), I asked for the info. They gave me a card, the church is about 8 miles away... The Mormon church. If any religion I feel least of that was it.
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Shall we move onto Buddism the only religion not to have started a war in their own name!
Come to think of it then neither has the new China.
Willy
Lets not forget the godless Deng Xiaoping's 1979 miscalculation
Over 30,000 Vietnamese and Chinese soldiers died in short but fierce war fought at the two nations' borders in 1979
To see more try : http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1879849,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1879849,00.html)
But that's small change compared to actions of the Christian USA - 32 countries bombed or invaded since WW2.
"By their fruits ye shall know them"
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"the Christian USA - 32 countries bombed or invaded" ???
Whatever conflicts the US has had had nothing to do with Christians. This is one of the first laws made with the birth of the country. No Religion shall rule the government.
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David, sorry to say that it wasn't you that drew men into this conversation but Vince. I commented on what he said and then commented on a couple of other opinions.
Willy said;
But whatever it is it will not prevent me living the life I do in the manner I do.
I know from experience David that no matter what I say I won't convince you to change your belief system and you won't change mine.
I would love to debate you but frankly I don't have the time. I've started a new business that is doing quite well which is consuming a lot of my time. Any extra time I have I would rather spend with Peggy. So at this time my friend I will bow and leave you with an open floor.
To others that wish to debate David E, you'd better be on your A game and have your reference material ready. He is as smart as the come and well read to boot.
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"the Christian USA - 32 countries bombed or invaded" ???
Whatever conflicts the US has had had nothing to do with Christians. This is one of the first laws made with the birth of the country. No Religion shall rule the government.
"In God we trust" was adopted as the official motto of the United States in 1956 as an alternative or replacement to the unofficial motto of E pluribus unum,
adopted when the Great Seal of the United States was created and adopted in 1782.
"In God we trust" has appeared on most U.S. coins since 1864 and on paper currency since 1957.
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"In God we trust" is basically a simple concept that seems to confuse many still today. It did start in 1957 and I know this for... well I was there. ;D
Thou the founding fathers were different domination christians, religion was written into the Constitution.
U.S. Constitution - Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Proposed 9/25/1789
It goes on to say (simpler words) that the government shall not be ruled by any religion. So it may have the word God in many places, we do not invade or go to war over religion.
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Shall we move onto Buddism the only religion not to have started a war in their own name!
Come to think of it then neither has the new China.
Willy
Lets not forget the godless Deng Xiaoping's 1979 miscalculation
Over 30,000 Vietnamese and Chinese soldiers died in short but fierce war fought at the two nations' borders in 1979
To see more try : http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1879849,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1879849,00.html)
But that's small change compared to actions of the Christian USA - 32 countries bombed or invaded since WW2.
"By their fruits ye shall know them"
Yes you are completely right about that by I was referring to New China that only started in 1982 when they realised the power of Commerce was more powerful than Communism. Since then many wars and conflicts have taken place. None involving China.
Willy
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Yes you are completely right about that by I was referring to New China that only started in 1982 when they realised the power of Commerce was more powerful than Communism. Since then many wars and conflicts have taken place. None involving China.
Willy
On March 14, 1988, a naval battle was fought between Vietnam People's Navy and People's Liberation Army Navy at Spratly islands. The battle resulted in the death of 70 Vietnamese soldiers and since then, China has controlled Johnson South Reef of Spratly islands.
Since 1979, there were at least six big rounds of clashes on Sino-Vietnamese border, in June 1980, May 1981, April 1983, April 1984, June 1985 and December 1986-January 1987. According to Western observers, all were initiated or provoked by the Chinese to serve their political objectives.
Just because China has not been involved in as many clashes as a few other western nations, I view this more because their end game strategy is very similar to a chess player Petrosian: Petrosian was a conservative, cautious, and highly defensive chess player who was strongly influenced by Nimzowitsch's idea of prophylaxis. He made more effort to prevent his opponent's offensive capabilities than he did to make use of his own. He very rarely went on the offensive unless he felt his position was completely secure. He usually won by playing consistently until his aggressive opponent made a mistake, securing the win by capitalizing upon this mistake without revealing any weaknesses of his own.
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I've started a new business that is doing quite well which is consuming a lot of my time.
A British Engineer has just started his own business in Afghanistan.
He’s making land mines that look like prayer mats.
It’s doing well. He says prophets are going through the roof…
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David, you are a bad man! ;) I got a feeling this one should have gone in another thread. But at least it has lightened up the discussion ;D
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I got a feeling this one should have gone in another thread. But at least it has lightened up the discussion ;D
Prayer mats, Prophets - and giving some folks a lift in their day ... must fit in the religion thread...;)
But if you want serious :o try
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/these-misguided-muslim-sharia-squads-are-playing-right-into-the-edls-hands-8461901.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/these-misguided-muslim-sharia-squads-are-playing-right-into-the-edls-hands-8461901.html)
Might make Willy glad he's moved to a civilised country :)
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oy vey
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re: Jonathan Cahn's "YouTube"
watched the whole thing. my Saturday morning is decompression time.
Cahn comes off like an over zealous Jewish Ronald Reagan, intermingling America, Israel, our Founding Fathers, New York's Ground Zero, the "Sycamore Tree", other associations of whatever, & the "Harbinger"...preaching down the stupid masses telling them how stupid they are.
the clip, except for the vociferous few, the few panned shots of the audience showed a lack of interest. I think a Romney audience would have been much more receptive.
Cahn- the "Harbinger: The Ancient Mystery That Holds the Secret of America's Future", Amazon- $9.03.
I would assume our Founding Fathers would be aghast by their long ago legal inoculation of religion, resulting in religion for sale- an American guaranteed freedom.
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There is a God in China :)
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We had a very interesting Bible study topic last Sunday. I found out that Chinese astronomy has records that show a bright light or super nova appearing about the time Jesus was born! I thought I would share the literature with those here who are interested. Sorry about the resolution, I had to reduce the file drastically so it would be able to load here.
Introduction
One of the most evocative images from any Christmas scene must be that of the Wise Men attending Jesus' birth, and the star hovering over where He was born. So what does the Bible really say about this event, and what does it actually mean for us today?
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Yes it has been written in more recent (20th century) times that it may have been the Halley's Comet that was seen. Judging but the time schedule of the comet, it would have been seen a few years before the noted birth (as written in the shared literature you attached). Hovering for months? I do not understand? They (Mary & Joseph) were not there for months?
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More recent research seems to suggest that the "star" could well have been Type 1C Hypernova originating in cluster M31 in the Andromeda Nebula. The parameters for it being Halleys Comet just dont fit.
Only a hypernova would have been visible to the naked eye and remain visible for some days if not weeks. Hubble has confirmed that the remanants of the event are still visible, although very faint now.
The event dates to about 6BCE, which accords to modern thinking about the date of Jesus' birth........
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Keep in mind that the star wasn't an over night phenomenon. It was there long enough for three wise men to come from the east. How far from the east?
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Another birthday is being honoured in China today! That of Chairman Mao. I20 years since his birth. TV is full of the celebrations on many channels.
Willy